Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by dezzy »

radebe88 wrote:I disagree with so much in this thread I don't know where to start but i will go with Saturday's game and TC's decisions.

Lasogga and Roofe had to come off due to injuries and fatigue lets get that out of the way. In regards to bringing on our tallest defensive player (Shaugnessy) when we are down to ten men, shattered due to the incredible effort the players had put in to the 2nd half and Millwalls main threat was from aerial battles.....what do you want? Imagine if he brought Anita on and he got beaten in the air at the back post you would all be going ape! It was always going to be an onslaught for the last 5/10 mins.

The way TC got a reaction from the players in that second half to come out flying like they did with 10 men made me incredibly proud in a way numorous managers before have severely failed to do. I think some people do not understand how hard it is to score 3 goals playing with 10 men and TC deserves credit for that.

TC cannot help the actions of Saiz against newport or O'Kane against Ipswich and Coopers Red was incredibly unlucky. These were all games firstly I felt we were on course to win, and secondly left us short of quality due to the bans they caused. Imagine Saiz yeaterday, we could have been 2-0 at half time our selves.

Sacking the manager will not solve the fact that we are half a season into radz project here. People were calling for Lee Johnsons head at Bristol City last season and look at them now.

Decisions look bad everytime a team loses but managers rarely get any credit when a change works. We need stability more than ever, without it we are the same old Leeds that we have been for the last 15 years.
Fantastic post!! Makes me laugh fans picking out mistakes in managers deacons like it’s so easy. You forget you have another team also trying to win games and constantly compete if with ten men is a bit tricky.
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat..
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

danhirons wrote:Man United should have sacked Fergie then because Cantona kung fu kicked a supporter :roll:

We lost a game...let's sack the manager....yawn :zip:
We lost against bottom club Brum
We lost against a League 2 team
We lost at Ipswich
Millwall came to ER & played us off the park for 45 minutes until we decided to wake up to the fact we were playing a football match in front of 32,000 Leeds fans
We've lost 12 of our last 21 games

It's not just one game Dan, it's an accumulation of shambolic performances

We have no cup run to look forward to & the play-offs are now looking a distant memory

Our season is more or less over & we're not even out of January yet :(

Same old same old Leeds.....happens every season !
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by danhirons »

1964white wrote:We lost against bottom club Brum
We lost against a League 2 team
We lost at Ipswich
Millwall came to ER & played us off the park for 45 minutes until we decided to wake up to the fact we were playing a football match in front of 32,000 Leeds fans
We've lost 12 of our last 21 games

It's not just one game Dan, it's an accumulation of shambolic performances

We have no cup run to look forward to & the play-offs are now looking a distant memory

Our season is more or less over & we're not even out of January yet :(

Same old same old Leeds.....happens every season !
While I agree with some of that, what do we do? Sack TC, get in another manager and have the same thing next year? Let's just give TC a full second season in my opinion to have some stability. This season is far from over too - we're still only 3 points out of the play offs.
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

Some of you need to get to games on a regular basis

Lets see how rational you would be after witnessing shocker after shocker

Wake up we are heading down to mid-table in the championship which is where we belong tbh
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

danhirons wrote:While I agree with some of that, what do we do? Sack TC, get in another manager and have the same thing next year? Let's just give TC a full second season in my opinion to have some stability. This season is far from over too - we're still only 3 points out of the play offs.
I asked the question "Should he stay or should he go"

Quite honestly I don't know :duno: as with the majority I don't like changing managers mid-season but I have serious reservations after the shambles I've witnessed of late :(
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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1964white wrote:Some of you need to get to games on a regular basis

Lets see how rational you would be after witnessing shocker after shocker

Wake up we are heading down to mid-table in the championship which is where we belong tbh
Come on now Leon, that is an unfair comment. Attending games is not a contest, and does not merit an individual a better or worse fan, (my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy). Am not having a go at you, (you are a top bloke, and have had enough unfair abuse in recent times), but you should knock the "us fans" on the head.

We don't know everyone's personal situation or reasons for non-attendance, but am more than happy for you to organize a whip round for my 22,000KM, (depending upon where I am at a given time), business class round trip, and I will join you on one of the Tetley's coaches to the games. ;-)
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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1964white wrote:An absolute shambles

Every time we have a one goal lead in the last ten minutes Christiansen brings on another centre back, goes to five at the back, concedes midfield and invites on the opposition. It’s worked until today but it’s negative and an accident waiting to happen and the accident did happen in spectacular style - The trouble was that we were already under the cosh before the substitutions and a ssuch it looked only a matter of time before they equalised anyway - and as you say it had worked all the previous times

We could also ask why we are so cautious about playing new signings. Vieira was blatantly unfit today. I think it is in theory a good policy to wait until the new player has at least had chance to meet his new team mates and train a couple of times - why we can't complete signings on a Monday so the player has a week's training I don't know.

Why did we defend so deep and allow Morison to drop off to be marked by Vieira? Possibly a question to be asked of the set piece specialist - presumably something they have been working on

Why was Morison being marked by Berardi at set pieces? See above

Why was Vieira playing centre back for at least five minutes after Cooper was sent off? It cost us a goal? Presumably trying to get into half time before making changes

Why was that number 35 completely unmarked at set pieces? See above re set piece coach

Why on earth were we left with Pablo playing up front for the last 15 minutes? Hernandez has no pace and can’t hold up play - completely pointless! Cos everyone else had been subbed - gotta leave someone up top and at least Pablo has the nous to be able to hold onto the ball a bit and try to shield it etc

What has happened to our own set pieces? Has the coach left? Every team will work on set pieces and a lot of variables come into it . i.e. the opposition could completely change their normal delivery, our delivery can be off, someone can momentarily lose concentration, players that were part of a routine (i.e. Cooper) were no longer on the pitch etc

Absolutely shambolic game plan and tactics from minute one, turned it around and handed the game to them on a plate. Amateurish !

And then there is the disciplinary shambles

Five players shown the red card this season consequently missing many games

Ten bookings for Phillips therefore another player missing games

I believe our assistant coach was sent off today too

I don't think Cooper deserved to be sent off - when it happened I felt a yellow would have been harsh


Our form

Lost 4 of our last 5 games v the likes of Birmingham, Newport, Ipswich & Millwall, no top teams there.

Lost 12 of our last 21 games

Dumped out of the 3rd round of the FA Cup by the Welsh worldbeaters Newport so no cup run to look forward to for our fans

Rarely dominate teams, can only think of 2 out of our last 17 where we've been in total control.
Generally we are lucky to dominate games for 30 minutes, difficult to win games when we only turn up for a 33% of a match

Wolves lost to Forest - a team we have completely dominated twice. Guess what there is a cigarette paper between most teams in the division so it is rare to dominate against any team. It is all about getting the most out of it when you are dominating and in the 15 minutes or so that we played well we scored 3 times. Hard to continue to dominate when playing 10 v 11(12).

Is Thomas the right man to take us up to the next level?

I've defended TC & felt sorry for him at times as I don't think he has the necessary tools required but one has to ask has he got the tactical nous to achieve success at Leeds ? Not really - you were amongst the first to start calling for his head but then you showed your fickle side when we turned things around again. _ It takes a long time for a coach to instill a new style of play to a team especially when he has to make the most out of signings that he hasn't particularly wanted (i.e. Klich) Pep Guardiola looks a genius this season at City but last season he would have been sacked if he didn't have the impressive CV behind him. This season he has got in 2 attacking fullbacks and suddenly his system works - sometimes no matter how good players are they do not fit a system. Let's give him time and more time to actually get a squad he wants -how many times have we said our squad is not good enough yet we seem to expect him to win every game and dominate at the same time
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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Azkalwhite wrote:Come on now Leon, that is an unfair comment. Attending games is not a contest, and does not merit an individual a better or worse fan, (my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy). Am not having a go at you, (you are a top bloke, and have had enough unfair abuse in recent times), but you should knock the "us fans" on the head.

We don't know everyone's personal situation or reasons for non-attendance, but am more than happy for you to organize a whip round for my 22,000KM, (depending upon where I am at a given time), business class round trip, and I will join you on one of the Tetley's coaches to the games. ;-)
Dont think 64 was having a go at fans who can't get to games, but what he was saying I agree with, which seems to be if a fan attended every game and witnessed 90 minutes of the quality that we have been putting out over the past couple of months then their opinions may be a little different. I get to quite a few home games and can't remember leaving Elland Road over the past few months feeling really optimistic !!
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by The Subhuman »

I get where 64 is coming from, it is a product after all these days and the likes of 64 pay a great deal for that product.
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

Azkalwhite wrote:Come on now Leon, that is an unfair comment. Attending games is not a contest, and does not merit an individual a better or worse fan, (my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy). Am not having a go at you, (you are a top bloke, and have had enough unfair abuse in recent times), but you should knock the "us fans" on the head.

We don't know everyone's personal situation or reasons for non-attendance, but am more than happy for you to organize a whip round for my 22,000KM, (depending upon where I am at a given time), business class round trip, and I will join you on one of the Tetley's coaches to the games. ;-)
Yes I know my comment was hard-hitting & please accept my apology Azkal but I know personally I was far more tolerant in the mid 80's about our lack-lustre performances as I was setting up my own retail business & it was impossible for me to attend matches in it's formative years. I use to think oh just another loss & not get so hung up about LUFC's demise. When you are witnessing one fiasco after another week in week out you become less objective, frustration & emotion kicks in as your patience is fully tested.
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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60sUnited wrote:Dont think 64 was having a go at fans who can't get to games, but what he was saying I agree with, which seems to be if a fan attended every game and witnessed 90 minutes of the quality that we have been putting out over the past couple of months then their opinions may be a little different. I get to quite a few home games and can't remember leaving Elland Road over the past few months feeling really optimistic !!
I'm absolutely certain opinions would be different 60's :tup: I really feel for our massive home & away support who get behind their club & are served up such rubbish far too often. Is it any wonder our fans become so dejected & frustrated, the silly thing is we keep going back for more :lol:
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

faaip wrote:I get where 64 is coming from, it is a product after all these days and the likes of 64 pay a great deal for that product.
Living in East Yorkshire means every game creates a lot of travelling which adds to cost of following Leeds.
I never add up the amount I spend supporting my club as the figure would be a real shock to my system, then there is the time & effort to consider mate !

I've stood next to Riot for the last three home games with the lovely Pat just behind me, both use to post on here as you well know !
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by Haighy »

I'm not a fan of T.C. and have indicated in previous posts that he should go.
Strangely, I've sort of changed my view.
We aren't a good side, we aren't promotion material and i don't think we'll make the playoffs.
We won't until there's a huge injection of cash for players.
So i don't think sacking T. C. at this point is in the clubs best interests.
Our good start to the season gave us all false optimism. We've seen in the last few months how poor we are.
Mid table at best for me this season.

On another note, I'd love to see the fans sticking with the club.. we've been getting near sell outs every week,,, i believe we're still top of the attendance table... let's win that if nothing else !!
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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1964white wrote:Yes I know my comment was hard-hitting & please accept my apology Azkal but I know personally I was far more tolerant in the mid 80's about our lack-lustre performances as I was setting up my own retail business & it was impossible for me to attend matches in it's formative years. I use to think oh just another loss & not get so hung up about LUFC's demise. When you are witnessing one fiasco after another week in week out you become less objective, frustration & emotion kicks in as your patience is fully tested.
Leon, no need for apologies, am not a sensitive chap, and as mentioned, you are a top bloke. Your comment was not hard hitting to be honest, you are just venting your emotions / feelings, nothing wrong with that pal.

I have invested a fair bit on my passion for Leeds over the years, air tickets, season tickets, even whilst being out of Blighty since 1990.

Bottom line, there is no magic wand, and this is a not a quick fix. I believe in Rad's strategy, and prepared to support TC and his team, in the long term. Stability and patience is the way forward in my opinion.
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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1964white wrote:We lost against bottom club Brum - who then won 2 more games in a row after beating us

We lost against a League 2 team - It is the Cup and rightly or wrongly we had a weakened team out. Bournemouth also lost to a team 2 divisions below then despite having 2 matches to try to win the tie. The Nott Forest side that we battered also beat the cup holders Arsenal .

We lost at Ipswich - Several teams do - we weren't the first and won't be the last


Millwall came to ER & played us off the park for 45 minutes until we decided to wake up to the fact we were playing a football match in front of 32,000 Leeds fans - We could easily have been a goal up with Lasogga having two decent chances before Millwall scored. Credit to Millwall they raise their game when they play us. Credit to Leeds though for 'waking up' in the second half and really going at it. Without the extra man advantage I think Millwall would have been blown away in that half but tired legs cost us. I mentioned in another post that we got our 3rd goal too soon. If we'd have got back into the game and then kept having to attack Millwall and then say got the equaliser with 10 to go we'd have had all the momentum and kept going. 30 minutes remaining after we scored gave Millwall a chance to regroup and also it changed the match as we didn't need to go 'gung ho' any more.

We've lost 12 of our last 21 games - Yes not a great record at all. We have to keep plugging away though as we are still within touching distance of a play-off place. If the match ended after 85 minutes on Saturday everybody would have been on top of the world. We are a bit jekyll and hyde but hopefully we can get a settled side and go on a good run.

It's not just one game Dan, it's an accumulation of shambolic performances -Yes some poor performances but last year we had lots of them but when we snatched a win it was 'the sign of a good team'

We have no cup run to look forward to & the play-offs are now looking a distant memory - We were very unlikely to win the cup and although a game or two v big clubs would have been good it at least means we can focus on the league - strange how people blamed our post Old Trafford slump in the League 1 promotion campaign on our cup run yet will also blame a poor run on us losing in the cup. We saw last season that if a team gets on a run they can gatecrash the play-off party. As long as we keep in touch then we can get back in.

Our season is more or less over & we're not even out of January yet :( - Well I am glad the team had more fight in them than you or the second half would have been an embarassment.

Same old same old Leeds.....happens every season ! - This is the crux for me as you, like many fans are fed up of history repeating itself. However I don't think we are that far away from being a decent side. If Lasogga can continue to show his best then we have a decent striker which is perhaps the biggest weakness in the team. If Forshaw can knit the midfield together then that is a huge gap plugged, we also have Saiz to come back and the 6 match break may turn into a good thing as it has given him a break and he may return fully recharged and get back to his best form and still be going strong for the play-offs. Cooper will presumably get a ban,
despite me thinking it was harsh the FA will not overturn it as it is us - this gives either Pennington or Shaugnessy the chance to forge a partnership with PJ and who knows it might turn out stronger
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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radebe88 wrote:I disagree with so much in this thread I don't know where to start but i will go with Saturday's game and TC's decisions.

Lasogga and Roofe had to come off due to injuries and fatigue lets get that out of the way. In regards to bringing on our tallest defensive player (Shaugnessy) when we are down to ten men, shattered due to the incredible effort the players had put in to the 2nd half and Millwalls main threat was from aerial battles.....what do you want? Imagine if he brought Anita on and he got beaten in the air at the back post you would all be going ape! It was always going to be an onslaught for the last 5/10 mins.

The way TC got a reaction from the players in that second half to come out flying like they did with 10 men made me incredibly proud in a way numorous managers before have severely failed to do. I think some people do not understand how hard it is to score 3 goals playing with 10 men and TC deserves credit for that.

TC cannot help the actions of Saiz against newport or O'Kane against Ipswich and Coopers Red was incredibly unlucky. These were all games firstly I felt we were on course to win, and secondly left us short of quality due to the bans they caused. Imagine Saiz yeaterday, we could have been 2-0 at half time our selves.

Sacking the manager will not solve the fact that we are half a season into radz project here. People were calling for Lee Johnsons head at Bristol City last season and look at them now.

Decisions look bad everytime a team loses but managers rarely get any credit when a change works. We need stability more than ever, without it we are the same old Leeds that we have been for the last 15 years.
100% this :tup:
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

weasel wrote:Mr Fickle
Believe it or not I like TC, he comes across as a really nice bloke. Also enjoy his philosophy on the style of football he wants Leeds to play

After saying that fans have the right to question Christiansen's methods.
Football is a results/performances business. I wasn't convinced with our performances even during our good run in December after steadying the boat after our first rut. I could foresee the next rut coming as there were too many errors on & off the pitch, so here we are again winless in five games after some real shockers against poor opposition as the mistakes build up, players missing due to poor discipline, others carrying injuries as we approach yet another tough set of fixtures with confidence on a low once again.
I have never called for Christiansen's head but I have questioned his tactics/team selection/subs/etc,
I personally don't think it would be beneficial if we changed managers now. I'm more concerned about the clown above him upstairs Orta, he's employed to give Thomas the right tools to work with, not a bunch of no-marks who are clearly not up to the rigours of championship football.

Anyway this fickle fan :rol: is tired & ready for his bed :moggy:
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

Azkalwhite wrote:Leon, no need for apologies, am not a sensitive chap, and as mentioned, you are a top bloke. Your comment was not hard hitting to be honest, you are just venting your emotions / feelings, nothing wrong with that pal
Thanks for your kind words
Azkalwhite wrote:Bottom line, there is no magic wand, and this is a not a quick fix. I believe in Rad's strategy, and prepared to support TC and his team, in the long term. Stability and patience is the way forward in my opinion.
That's all us fans can do. MOT
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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1964white wrote:Believe it or not I like TC, he comes across as a really nice bloke. Also enjoy his philosophy on the style of football he wants Leeds to play

After saying that fans have the right to question Christiansen's methods.
Football is a results/performances business. I wasn't convinced with our performances even during our good run in December after steadying the boat after our first rut. I could foresee the next rut coming as there were too many errors on & off the pitch, so here we are again winless in five games after some real shockers against poor opposition as the mistakes build up, players missing due to poor discipline, others carrying injuries as we approach yet another tough set of fixtures with confidence on a low once again.
I have never called for Christiansen's head but I have questioned his tactics/team selection/subs/etc,
I personally don't think it would be beneficial if we changed managers now. I'm more concerned about the clown above him upstairs Orta, he's employed to give Thomas the right tools to work with, not a bunch of no-marks who are clearly not up to the rigours of championship football.

Anyway this fickle fan :rol: is tired & ready for his bed :moggy:
Would agree with a lot of this and would argue that any coach/manager can look great when he has the squad he wants and is then able to make tactical changes or substitutions that he wants rather than having to pick from limited options for example if we had had Ekuban on the bench yesterday what a great option he would have been to bring on for the last 20 minutes so we could have hit Millwall on the break and they would have had to have been far more cautious. TC could have brought Sacko on but it certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same threat level.

For me the time to judge TC is after he has had a sufficient amount of time in charge of a strong squad. I think we all see huge limitations in our squad and even our strongest first team has weaknesses. Added to that the spate of sendings off lately and I certainly don't blame TC for the recent results. With 11 men in the second half v Millwall and Ipswich we probably win both games.

I think a lot of fans are also needlessly harsh on Orta expecting every signing to be an instant success. Even the top clubs paying £20m+ for players make signings that don't work and when you are shopping in the bargain basement leagues then some signings will not pay off. It is very easy to say spend a bit more on a proven player but even then there is no guarantee and we have had enough proven players come to the club in the past and fail miserably. Every signing we make is a gamble which is why I like the policy of signing lots of youth players as I feel that in the future these players will be acclimatised and if they then come into the first team they are more likely to succeed.
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white »

weasel wrote:Would agree with a lot of this and would argue that any coach/manager can look great when he has the squad he wants and is then able to make tactical changes or substitutions that he wants rather than having to pick from limited options for example if we had had Ekuban on the bench yesterday what a great option he would have been to bring on for the last 20 minutes so we could have hit Millwall on the break and they would have had to have been far more cautious. TC could have brought Sacko on but it certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same threat level.

For me the time to judge TC is after he has had a sufficient amount of time in charge of a strong squad. I think we all see huge limitations in our squad and even our strongest first team has weaknesses. Added to that the spate of sendings off lately and I certainly don't blame TC for the recent results. With 11 men in the second half v Millwall and Ipswich we probably win both games.

I think a lot of fans are also needlessly harsh on Orta expecting every signing to be an instant success. Even the top clubs paying £20m+ for players make signings that don't work and when you are shopping in the bargain basement leagues then some signings will not pay off. It is very easy to say spend a bit more on a proven player but even then there is no guarantee and we have had enough proven players come to the club in the past and fail miserably. Every signing we make is a gamble which is why I like the policy of signing lots of youth players as I feel that in the future these players will be acclimatised and if they then come into the first team they are more likely to succeed.
Ekuban's availability could have made a huge difference :tup:

Still believe we have been left stretched in certain positions which I & many others have highlighted over the season, now our vulnerability has come to fruition with all the injuries/suspensions.
Lassoga was hobbling before leaving the pitch on Saturday so once again we could have a serious problem upfront.
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