So Grayson....

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weasel
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So Grayson....

Post by weasel » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Okay here goes - pass me Pandora's box let's have a peak inside.

I feel SG gets far too much flak as a manager. He has had great success getting several clubs, including Leeds promoted from League 1 and has always had them comfortably settled in the championship - including getting us close to the play-offs. His only real failure has been at Sunderland but they seem to be a club in freefall so maybe it was just the wrong club for him.

When he took over at Leeds we were a team in freefall. Gary Mc's side was leaking goals and we had been knocked out of the cup by lower league opposition. SG came in and with hardly a penny to spend shored up our defence getting in the veteran Richard Naylor and also Sam Sodje and Carl Dickinson on loan. He had us well organised and playing to our strengths and with us ending that season playing really well it looked a formality for us to get promoted via the play-offs. The suspension of leftback Dickinson v Millwall I feel was the difference as without him we were weak and Ben Parker was unable to prevent the cross coming in leading to Millwall's goal.

The following season and our defence, marshalled by the free signing of Kisnorbo, was watertight. Another free signing in net, Shane Higgs, a free signing a right back, Crowe, but yet despite sending nothing the defence was solid and we played a counter attacking style utilising Beckford's pace. People often say about how poor SG's teams were at defending but by god that team was stingy at the back. We had injuries but it didn't derail us even with a central midfielder, Andy Hughes, playing at left back.

The culmination of this seemed to happen at Old Trafford as the game plan worked perfectly with a Man Utd side featuring Rooney and Berbatov up front was limited to very few chances and we hit them on the break with Beckford scoring. Perhaps though this was the beginning of the end of SG's defence based side as it was revealed Beckford had handed in a transfer request. Perhaps resigned to losing him I feel SG changed the way the side played, or perhaps the team just got a bit too big for their boots due to the cup performances, or maybe Kisnorbo's injuries and the inability of SG to pull another rabbit out of the free signing/loan hat, but whatever happened it was only at this point that the side begin to struggle defensively. We had the wobble and to some degree, a bit like TC this year perhaps, SG was a victim of the teams earlier success as the fans, and maybe the team too, seemed to think we just had to turn up to win. Norwich overtook us but they were a team that was on the comeback after having a couple of bad managers and were a side who would win back to back promotions with largely the same team, and we wobbled our way to promotion.

The fans though still believed we were the same as Norwich and good enough to go straight up again. This was despite having to replace our goalkeeper, centreback and striker (sounds familiar to the start of this season) with the loss of Kisnorbo and Beckford being huge losses and SG still expected to perform the miracles despite not being given money to replace them and having to rely on the free signing of Billy Paynter to spearhead the attack. The likes of Alex Bruce, Leigh Bromby etc were all brought in for around £200k a player and expected to be amazing centrebacks. Yes we had some good players, the likes of Snodgrass, Howson, Becchio and Gradel in particular but we had to play 11 a side not 5 a side. So it was a case that the attacking players we had were given free reign as we were defensively poor and it nearly got us into the play-offs. As Ken Bates continued to sell off our best players Grayson was continually expected to replace them with a fraction of the money their sales generated - this was never going to work yet, just look at the example of Paul Heckingbottom at Barnsley where there best players were sold and they were fighting relegation, despite this SG had us still within touching distance of the play-off when he was sacked. The atmosphere at ER at the time was toxic with fans getting on the player's back from the start and protests going on before the matches. The fans were like a goal start to the opposition.

With a bit more money to spend I feel SG could have got us promoted. We will never however know as he has never managed a club that has had money to spend on players and I feel this is why he always reaches a ceiling as to how far he can take those clubs. You can get teams promoted from league 1 with shrewd signings of past their prime players or young loans but at championship level you need the money to buy key players.

Discuss.....
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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Cjay » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:27 pm

His teams cant defend . . . End of discussion 8-)

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Clive » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:04 pm

You've done it!

He was sacked at Huddersfield for a run worse than the one at Sunderland.

You see, I see McAllister like Christiansen and Grayson like Heckingbottom. He got away with it in League 1, too.

Carl Dickinson, a full back who never crossed the half way line.

Ask Leeds fans and they'll tell you Grayson is an attacking manager, ask Preston fans they'll say he's defensive, ask Sunderland fans and they'll say he's not a manager.

He was obsessed with the loan market, no manager before or since has used it like him. I think it was so that he had an excuse for poor signings.

We lost 4 in a row without scoring and limped to promotion, while he went full strength in the JPT. Norwich were no better than us, they just had a better manager. They took half our League 1 team for the Prem.

He left Beckford out during the run in and then left Howson and Snodgrass on the bench for the most win game against Bristol Rovers.

Becchio spearheaded the attack and was up with the top scorers. He also had Ross McCormack but never played him.

Bromby and Bruce weren't that bad. He signed Neill Collins for more money and he was the main reason we were so poor defensively. As soon as he was dropped we shot up the table.

He had all our best players together for one season and could only finish 7th. Warnock would have got that team up.

He's not even a Leeds fan, he was a Liverpool fan as a kid.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by weasel » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:14 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:27 pm
His teams cant defend . . . End of discussion 8-)
Check the record books up until Christmas of our promotion year we were conceding something like half a goal per game with a back up keeper, a central midfielder at left back, a free signing right back and 2 free signings in centreback. Protecting the back four was a midfielder on loan from the championship (Doyle). We weren't big Leeds Utd in that division winning a chequebook promotion.
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Re: So Grayson....

Post by faaip » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:23 pm

I've already forgotten anything I knew about SG...apart from shagging the secretary story. That's where he is with me: Got us up from L1. Shagged his secretary.

Yep think that's all I need to know
I'm careful with the truths I tell
Wine stained teeth don't really suit me well


Starting 11

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Clive » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:31 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLK2xUdbt9w

That well tell you all you need to know about Grayson.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by 1964white » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:36 pm

"We're working hard behind the scenes"

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by weasel » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:39 pm

Clive wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:04 pm
You've done it!

He was sacked at Huddersfield for a run worse than the one at Sunderland. Good don't like them

You see, I see McAllister like Christiansen and Grayson like Heckingbottom. He got away with it in League 1, too. McAllister's side was one that could not defend. GMac has no managerial success - major difference between SG and PH in League 1 is that SG picked up a side that was playing awfully whereas PH picked up a side that was already heading for promotion and their manager had left for a better job, not been sacked

Carl Dickinson, a full back who never crossed the half way line. Solid as a brick sh*thouse though and if you have enough attacking players then having a defensive minded full back is not a problem

Ask Leeds fans and they'll tell you Grayson is an attacking manager, ask Preston fans they'll say he's defensive, ask Sunderland fans and they'll say he's not a manager. Yes indeed a very good defensive record at Preston. You have to play to the strengths of the squad you have which is why he was right to make Leeds an attacking side as we had an abundance of attacking flair and presumably Preston didn't so he made them defensive. You have to identify your team's strengths which is an area I feel PH hasn't done at Leeds

He was obsessed with the loan market, no manager before or since has used it like him. I think it was so that he had an excuse for poor signings. I think given the funds he'd have signed more players but with limited funds he had little option but to try to use the loan market - always going to be hit and miss though and no one would have thought Gradel would have been the success he was whereas the likes of Barclay, Townsend etc were huge flops

We lost 4 in a row without scoring and limped to promotion, while he went full strength in the JPT. Norwich were no better than us, they just had a better manager. They took half our League 1 team for the Prem. You should see the abuse managers have had on here for fielding weakened teams in the cup - even though we don't ever abuse anyone

He left Beckford out during the run in and then left Howson and Snodgrass on the bench for the most win game against Bristol Rovers. Beckford had lost a bit of form, as had most of the team, not saying every team selection was right but it worked out, just

Becchio spearheaded the attack and was up with the top scorers. He also had Ross McCormack but never played him. RMC - now if you want to see someone get abuse search for posts about him on here. Never understood the abuse myself as he scored a lot of goals in a poor team for us

Bromby and Bruce weren't that bad. He signed Neill Collins for more money and he was the main reason we were so poor defensively. As soon as he was dropped we shot up the table. My god had forgotten Collins he was f*cking awful we can agree on that - Bromby and Bruce were okay but quickly targetted by the boo boys. They were never going to be great and as shown over the years good defenders can be hounded out and do well elsewhere, see S. Bamba, A. Bruce and T. Lees. That said though I made the point about Orta elsewhere that when shopping in the bargain basement a lot of signings will not work out

He had all our best players together for one season and could only finish 7th. Warnock would have got that team up. Well he did have to replace Beckford and Kinorbo that season, one was player of the year and the other was top scorer. Like I said we had a great attacking side that year, with Gradel turning into a force, but our defence was league 1 standard. 7th in my opinion was probably, akin to TC, overachieving

He's not even a Leeds fan, he was a Liverpool fan as a kid. Will give you that one as a token gesture towards goodwill and harmony
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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Shields53 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:49 pm

Thought we played some great football under Grayson at times. And yes, we limped over the line but he still got us promoted. Something no other manager has managed to do since. And something he has managed to do with three other clubs too.

Did he falter when we were in the Championship? Yes. But his best players were sold from under him and I don’t see any other manager having done a better job since.

As for his record at Sunderland. Who gives a s**t?

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Clive » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:06 pm

Histon got the same reaction as Newport, and we were 9th, 5 points off the play-offs and 2 points behind Peterborough, who went up automatically. It was still December.

Millwall went up after being in a similar position at a similar time to where we were when McAllister was sacked.

Macca could have got us up that season, he showed the season before he can finish a season strongly, no manager has been able to do that since.

Grayson didn't get us up that season and nearly messed up the season after.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Cjay » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:59 pm

weasel wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:14 pm
Check the record books up until Christmas of our promotion year we were conceding something like half a goal per game with a back up keeper, a central midfielder at left back, a free signing right back and 2 free signings in centreback. Protecting the back four was a midfielder on loan from the championship (Doyle). We weren't big Leeds Utd in that division winning a chequebook promotion.
That may be the case. I cant remember that far back, i do remember we had to score lots of goals under Grayson to win.
Even in our promotion season we played 60 conceded 59. First season back we conceded 70 in the league.
Upto when he left the next season we conceded 43 in 28.

Preston last season conceded 60 goals in the league, this season so far 37.

Sunderland are terrible but they have conceded less under Coleman.

Imo Grayson is like Kevin Keegan, score lots of goals but dont expect many clean sheets.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by weasel » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:04 am

Clive wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:06 pm
Histon got the same reaction as Newport, and we were 9th, 5 points off the play-offs and 2 points behind Peterborough, who went up automatically. It was still December.

Millwall went up after being in a similar position at a similar time to where we were when McAllister was sacked.

Macca could have got us up that season, he showed the season before he can finish a season strongly, no manager has been able to do that since.

Grayson didn't get us up that season and nearly messed up the season after.
Check out Grayson's first promotion - took charge at Blackpool who were close to the relegation zone at Christmas/New Year and they went on an amazing run and got promoted via the play-offs.

It took Southampton 3 seasons to get promoted from League 1 and they had a better all round squad and decent money to spend.
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Re: So Grayson....

Post by radebe88 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:01 am

Really good manager in my opinion. Arguably our most successful one post premier league and built the foundation from that awful league one team into a comfortable if at times frustrating championship one.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Norm » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:32 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Really good manager in my opinion. Arguably our most successful one post premier league and built the foundation from that awful league one team into a comfortable if at times frustrating championship one.
Agreed

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Clive » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:58 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:01 am
Really good manager in my opinion. Arguably our most successful one post premier league and built the foundation from that awful league one team into a comfortable if at times frustrating championship one.
Blackwell finished 5th and got to the play-off final.

Half of that League 1 team went on to play in the Premier League and most of our best players were there before he arrived.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by Clive » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:03 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:04 am
Check out Grayson's first promotion - took charge at Blackpool who were close to the relegation zone at Christmas/New Year and they went on an amazing run and got promoted via the play-offs.

It took Southampton 3 seasons to get promoted from League 1 and they had a better all round squad and decent money to spend.
You could say the same about Heckingbottom at Barnsley, McDermott got Reading into the Premier League.

All had good players and there's a certain freedom about having a caretaker manager. Once they have to start making tough decisions they can get found out.

Grayson was happy to just keep Blackpool up, then Holloway took over, who's nothing special as a manager, and he got them promoted to the Premier League.

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Re: So Grayson....

Post by radebe88 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:08 am

Clive wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:58 pm
Blackwell finished 5th and got to the play-off final.

Half of that League 1 team went on to play in the Premier League and most of our best players were there before he arrived.
Blackwell has also done nothing since. I wouldn’t like to compare the two too much as they had completely different jobs. I just think Graysons was narrowly harder

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