Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

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Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby 1964white » Mon May 08, 2017 8:43 am

One win in the last seven games, two in the last ten. Does he deserve any criticism for the way the season fell away?

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby hector » Mon May 08, 2017 8:50 am

YES.....
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Haighy » Mon May 08, 2017 10:41 am

Yes......his team selection !

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Gandalf » Mon May 08, 2017 10:52 am

Yes, although that doesn't take away from his overall performance. Sign him up, give him the players he needs, and a stable pre-season, and we should be able to build on this season's effort.
Plus he saved me the cost of hiring a defibrillator. :tup:
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Gary Shaw » Mon May 08, 2017 11:23 am

No bad runs of form happen it's just been massively highlighted by it coming in the last few weeks just like it was in the first few weeks.
1 win in 8 and 6 points from 8 is of course not good but it's not that bad, I can guarantee that the vast majority of teams in this league other than Brighton and Newcastle will at some point over the season have been on a far worse run of form than this over 8-10 games.
You can't judge a season on 8 games it's all about the 46 games and over those 46 games Monk has done an excellent job imo.

I think there are 2 reasons we fell away:
1. The squad isn't good enough we only really have/ had 3 premier league quality players in the squad: Wood, Pontus and Taylor as well as some good players with potential to be very good at this level: Ayling, Bartley, Berardi, Vieira etc. The problem is we still have too many lower Championship/League One players such as: Cooper, Roofe (at the moment), Antonsson, Doukara, Dallas, Phillips (at the moment), Pedraza (at the moment) and Sacko in the squad.
2. Ran out of energy a little bit like Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp teams who always finish seasons badly because of the intensity and energy they play with for the first 5-6-7 months of the season. We were playing at such a high intensity from September to March that in hindsight it was almost inevitable with a small squad like ours and the amount of games you play at this level we would risk 'running out of steam'. You can't blame Monk for this as we were in automatic promotion form when we played at a higher intensity we are not good enough to simply play at 90% so had to just keep going.

Monk inherited a dreadful squad and was given a £850,000 a net spend (lower than Rotherham) to improve it. We spent £7.85 million in the summer (but £7 million of this came from the Lewis Cook sale), the likes of Huddersfield, Reading and Fulham with their supposedly lesser resources spent far more than Monk did in the summer and winter. The target was top 10 and he achieved this comfortably to finish 5 pts ahead of Norwich, 8 pts ahead of Derby and 13 pts ahead of Villa is a brilliant acheivement.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby weasel » Mon May 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Agree with the last 2 posters. For all we were sh*te in the last few months we have to look at the whole picture. People seem to think that by changing style of play, selecting a different formation etc that suddenly things would have fallen into place, but whilst that can work on footy manager games it isn't that straightforward and maybe if Monk had have changed more we'd have got even less points in the last few games.
As it was we continually over achieved and maybe the reality is that the the squad is closer to the form shown at the end of the season than the results suggested during the rest of the season. We now though have a very interesting season to come if Monk stays as he has a lot to prove as when it all went wrong at Swansea he didn't manage to turn it around before he was sacked. This time around though he has a whole summer to reflect on what went wrong and work out how to fix it without it being in the heat of the battle when kneejerk reactions can sometimes make things worse rather than better.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby lufc1304 » Mon May 08, 2017 1:38 pm

If there's one criticism I would level at Monk, it was that he couldn't decide on a settled midfield two. I don't know whether he was trying to keep them all happy or he genuinely didn't know which two worked best, but the constant rotation meant the players themselves didn't get to know each other's game, there was a lack of cohesion and a lack of protection of the back four. That back four, and Green, coped admirably with it for most of the season, but as legs got tired, niggles started to niggle more and confidence eroded, we started shipping what proved to be very costly goals. Perhaps we would have done anyway, but I do think a settled midfield pair might have made a difference.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby weasel » Mon May 08, 2017 1:53 pm

lufc1304 wrote:If there's one criticism I would level at Monk, it was that he couldn't decide on a settled midfield two. I don't know whether he was trying to keep them all happy or he genuinely didn't know which two worked best, but the constant rotation meant the players themselves didn't get to know each other's game, there was a lack of cohesion and a lack of protection of the back four. That back four, and Green, coped admirably with it for most of the season, but as legs got tired, niggles started to niggle more and confidence eroded, we started shipping what proved to be very costly goals. Perhaps we would have done anyway, but I do think a settled midfield pair might have made a difference.


A tough one with the midfield as I think the preferred choice would have been O'Kane and Bridcutt but both had bad seasons injury wise and I feel Bridcutt especially never quite got back to being 100%. Vieira and Phillips were both incredibly inconsistent and as such Monk had probably no option at times but to drop 1 of them if they had 2 or 3 bad games in a row. Given an injury free season I think it would have been O'Kane and Bridcutt with Vieira and Phillips each playing a handful of games and coming off the bench.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby dezzy » Mon May 08, 2017 2:10 pm

Does he deserve criticism, resounding no, but are there plenty of points to improve on, defiantly.
The way we crumbled hurt, we were in such a strong position that missing out on the playoffs from where we were was a big failure.
But look at how much experience Roofe, Philips and Viera got this season, imagine how good those three young unknowns at the start of thus season can be next year. A lot of that is down to Monk and the backroom team.
would Monk be the guy you would want, working with the new board, with a clearly defined budget and vision? Yes.
What went wrong for us in April/May?
Fatigue? Nerves? Was there a falling out with Pontus that threw the harmony in the squad off a little?
Who knows, but once Monk can learn from it, which he will, I would want him in my corner next season.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby NorfolkWhite » Mon May 08, 2017 3:09 pm

I'm not sure it's blame but there are certainly things that he can learn from. I think that GM is the best manager that we've had in a long while and unlikely to be improved upon if we tried to replace him. Having said that he's still early in his managerial career with a lot to learn and I'm sure he'll be quietly be looking back (with his management team) at how this season played out and wondering about some of the choices (look at the Sutton game for example) he made. Overall he has the ability to develop with the squad and club as we enter a much more positive phase. I do really like the feeling that has been around the club this year, the team have performed (by and large), supporters have wanted to go and see the team, players have given their all the vast majority of the time and we have largely been free of boardroom bloopers and headlines. Feel for the first time in a long time that we've turned a corner......but I do still keep reminding myself we are LUFC!!!

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Durly » Mon May 08, 2017 4:03 pm

As I said on Waccoe - This could and hopefully should be the first time in a long while that we will have a manager that has had a full season followed by a proper pre-season to get things right and get everything he needs in place.
No one is immune from criticism and I think that, with the way the season fizzled out after so much promise that Monk probably should take some of the blame for that but the fact that the season showed any promise in the first place, when no one really expected it to back in August, is largely down to him.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby 1964white » Mon May 08, 2017 9:00 pm

Gary Shaw wrote:No bad runs of form happen it's just been massively highlighted by it coming in the last few weeks just like it was in the first few weeks.
1 win in 8 and 6 points from 8 is of course not good but it's not that bad, I can guarantee that the vast majority of teams in this league other than Brighton and Newcastle will at some point over the season have been on a far worse run of form than this over 8-10 games.
You can't judge a season on 8 games it's all about the 46 games and over those 46 games Monk has done an excellent job imo.

I think there are 2 reasons we fell away:
1. The squad isn't good enough we only really have/ had 3 premier league quality players in the squad: Wood, Pontus and Taylor as well as some good players with potential to be very good at this level: Ayling, Bartley, Berardi, Vieira etc. The problem is we still have too many lower Championship/League One players such as: Cooper, Roofe (at the moment), Antonsson, Doukara, Dallas, Phillips (at the moment), Pedraza (at the moment) and Sacko in the squad.
2. Ran out of energy a little bit like Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp teams who always finish seasons badly because of the intensity and energy they play with for the first 5-6-7 months of the season. We were playing at such a high intensity from September to March that in hindsight it was almost inevitable with a small squad like ours and the amount of games you play at this level we would risk 'running out of steam'. You can't blame Monk for this as we were in automatic promotion form when we played at a higher intensity we are not good enough to simply play at 90% so had to just keep going.

Monk inherited a dreadful squad and was given a £850,000 a net spend (lower than Rotherham) to improve it. We spent £7.85 million in the summer (but £7 million of this came from the Lewis Cook sale), the likes of Huddersfield, Reading and Fulham with their supposedly lesser resources spent far more than Monk did in the summer and winter. The target was top 10 and he achieved this comfortably to finish 5 pts ahead of Norwich, 8 pts ahead of Derby and 13 pts ahead of Villa is a brilliant acheivement.


Some really good points Oscar :tup:

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby 1964white » Mon May 08, 2017 9:01 pm

Durly wrote:As I said on Waccoe - This could and hopefully should be the first time in a long while that we will have a manager that has had a full season followed by a proper pre-season to get things right and get everything he needs in place
No one is immune from criticism and I think that, with the way the season fizzled out after so much promise that Monk probably should take some of the blame for that but the fact that the season showed any promise in the first place, when no one really expected it to back in August, is largely down to him.


Lets hope that is the case come the start of next season

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby 1964white » Mon May 08, 2017 9:12 pm

lufc1304 wrote:If there's one criticism I would level at Monk, it was that he couldn't decide on a settled midfield two I don't know whether he was trying to keep them all happy or he genuinely didn't know which two worked best, but the constant rotation meant the players themselves didn't get to know each other's game, there was a lack of cohesion and a lack of protection of the back four. That back four, and Green, coped admirably with it for most of the season, but as legs got tired, niggles started to niggle more and confidence eroded, we started shipping what proved to be very costly goals. Perhaps we would have done anyway, but I do think a settled midfield pair might have made a difference.


Never got it right

Monk placed a lot of faith in our two young players Vieira & Phillips which was always a risk

Bridcutt his captain has been a big disappointment imo

I believe we lost less matches when O'Kane played, why he didn't use his experience more often I'm unsure

As we've said all season Nick next season could be our time as long as there isn't too much upheaval/disruption during the summer !

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby lufc1304 » Tue May 09, 2017 8:26 am

1964white wrote:Never got it right

Monk placed a lot of faith in our two young players Vieira & Phillips which was always a risk

Bridcutt his captain has been a big disappointment imo

I believe we lost less matches when O'Kane played, why he didn't use his experience more often I'm unsure

As we've said all season Nick next season could be our time as long as there isn't too much upheaval/disruption during the summer !


As weasel said earlier in this thread, his hand was perhaps forced by injuries to both Bridcutt and O'Kane. I didn't realise O'Kane had been hurt, tbh, thought he had simply fallen out of favour. Liam wasn't the same after his injury, perhaps rushed back too quickly because Monk realised the two young lads weren't cutting it. Who knows? Vieira will be a much better player for the experience, though I remain to be convinced by Phillips. If we persist with the DM 2, then it has to be O'Kane and Bridcutt barring injury or a loss of form.

I do believe it can be, Leon, we're a coming side with potential, but we need stability, key reinforcements and probably some luck. We get all those, and I think we will give the autos a serious tilt next season.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Rex deWolf » Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Best manager we have had since.....

Having said that, I'm with LUFC 1304. But I believe that the problem is with the two man midfield. It's not specifically with Bridcutt and AN Other, it's the system that's not working, and Monk has stuck religiously with it all season.

Surely it time to at least try another variation



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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby 1964white » Tue May 09, 2017 9:58 pm

Rex deWolf wrote:Best manager we have had since.....

Having said that, I'm with LUFC 1304. But I believe that the problem is with the two man midfield. It's not specifically with Bridcutt and AN Other, it's the system that's not working, and Monk has stuck religiously with it all season.

Surely it time to at least try another variation



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Good point :tup:

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Re: RE: Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby Rex deWolf » Tue May 09, 2017 10:04 pm

1964white wrote:
Good point :tup:

Welcome to MOT Rex

Cheers

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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby weasel » Wed May 10, 2017 6:10 am

Rex deWolf wrote:Best manager we have had since.....

Having said that, I'm with LUFC 1304. But I believe that the problem is with the two man midfield. It's not specifically with Bridcutt and AN Other, it's the system that's not working, and Monk has stuck religiously with it all season.

Surely it time to at least try another variation



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Like I have said earlier though just by switching to another formation wouldn't mean the players would suddenly all become better passers, better goalscorers etc. The formation I feel got the best out of the players he had at his disposal. We didn't have a midfield suited to ball retention apart from a couple of matches where everything seemed to work (i.e. v Derby where the opposition gave us too much time and space to play). Did we have the 7th best squad ability wise in the division? No. Did we have a team that stuck to a gameplan that produced good results on a consistent basis? Yes, apart from the first few games of the season and the last few games. I am hoping a lot of our problems last season stemmed from the disorganised pre-season which I feel led to our slow start and perhaps may also have then caught up with our players towards the end of the season too.
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Re: Does Garry Monk deserve ANY criticism ?

Postby NorfolkWhite » Wed May 10, 2017 8:37 am

weasel wrote:Like I have said earlier though just by switching to another formation wouldn't mean the players would suddenly all become better passers, better goalscorers etc. The formation I feel got the best out of the players he had at his disposal. We didn't have a midfield suited to ball retention apart from a couple of matches where everything seemed to work (i.e. v Derby where the opposition gave us too much time and space to play). Did we have the 7th best squad ability wise in the division? No. Did we have a team that stuck to a gameplan that produced good results on a consistent basis? Yes, apart from the first few games of the season and the last few games. I am hoping a lot of our problems last season stemmed from the disorganised pre-season which I feel led to our slow start and perhaps may also have then caught up with our players towards the end of the season too.


Agree with this 100% - I think we got more or less the best out of the MF we had, GM did ask them to play from the back and at times we caused our own problems by trying to do this, our defence mostly got us out of the mire when we did, but to progress and be a better team in possession we need players that are much more capable of carrying out that gameplan.


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