Tuesday's Breakfast Debate....Centre-Back Crisis

[1964white]

Have we got a CB crisis as many of us suspected was a likely occurence during the coming season?

We not out of September yet & already the worrying signs are upon us !

Jansson - suffered a hamstring injury but has been described by TC as "not serious"

Cooper - has a back problem & was said to fit for the Millwall game however was declared unfit when the team was announced

Pennington - Injured early doors, apparently back in training & described as being "very close" although rumours are he isn't ready for tonight's game at Burnley

That leaves us with the inexperienced Shaugnhessy who's natural position is a midfielder, Ayling is a RB & could do with a rest tonight imo, then there is Borthwick-Jackson who can't even make the First XI in his natural position.

I personally believe if we lose Pontus for a long period of the season it could quite easily wreck our top-six ambitions

Thoughts??

[lufc1304]

A difficult one, Leon. Many, myself included, thought we probably should have strengthened at CB, but the problem was who to bring in that was good enough to replace an injured/suspended Jansson but who would also be happy to sit on the bench. We have been a bit unlucky to lose 3 CBs so early in the season, can't legislate for that. If there is a concern, I can see TC going for an emergency loan (is that still a thing?). No need to panic for tonight, it's a distraction, but if neither Cooper nor Jansson were available for Saturday, I'd be concerned.

[1964white]

A difficult one, Leon. Many, myself included, thought we probably should have strengthened at CB, but the problem was who to bring in that was good enough to replace an injured/suspended Jansson but who would also be happy to sit on the bench. We have been a bit unlucky to lose 3 CBs so early in the season, can't legislate for that. If there is a concern, I can see TC going for an emergency loan (is that still a thing?). No need to panic for tonight, it's a distraction, but if neither Cooper nor Jansson were available for Saturday, I'd be concerned.

I'm unsure whether the loan system applies anymore, think it was scrapped !

I'm under the impression we have to make do with the players we have within the current squad until at least the January Transfer Window & right now that is a long way off Nick

[Cjay]

Big concern for me, probably the biggest we have

All for showing faith in young players but O'Shaughnessy wasnt even a cb till July

And he is now our only fully fit cb.

Greatest of respect to Cooper (who has surprised us all so far). Pennington (talented) amd O'Shaughnessey (done well).

But Pontus is so far ahead of the 3 and if he was to get injured seriously, which wouldn't be a surprise with his injury troubles in Italy, then im fearful

Look at our opponents before last, Birmingham had 3 of the best Championship cbs available and at least 2 of them are better then Cooper imo, Harlee Dean, Marc Roberts and Michael Morrison.

We apparently did try for Dean, he choose Blues so clearly were after a cb, think its a case of wanted a cb and failed rather than didn't want one but club wont say that of course. Not going to criticise Orta and co to much but privately l think they know they made a mistake, especially with no emergency loan agailable.

[rab_rant]

It was desperate at Millwall, when Ayling moved into the centre for Pontus
I thought it was a wise move but in the dying minutes of the game I see him
rampaging forward and he ends up way out on the left wing near Millwall's corner
flag... not the best positional sense from a CB. I think he relishes the role at RB
cos he has the remit to get forward and he obviously enjoys that.

Regarding CBJ I thought he looked classy in the games he played. Did well getting
forward from LB and has a fair bit of pace to him and put in a decent cross, something
which has been missing from Anita's game.

We need players who play in their prefer position and who can stick to the task given them
Roofe for example has always been pushed out onto the wings, when he thinks his best
position is up front, but there is no chance he can displace Lasogga.

Talk about playing players out of position Dallas being brought in at LB when Anita goes
off injured... sure he can do a job there, but the whole point of having a big squad is to have cover
in exact and proper positions. Being forced into making makeshift substitutions and playing players
out of position just seems to be a lack of vision and foresight. Just patch the team up with Duc tape
and see how it flies. Oooops CRASH... well who would have thought that????

[Gurj]

I'm unsure whether the loan system applies anymore, think it was scrapped !

I'm under the impression we have to make do with the players we have within the current squad until at least the January Transfer Window & right now that is a long way off Nick

Indeed it was Leon. We have to go with what we have now until Jan 1st.

[weasel]

A difficult one, Leon. Many, myself included, thought we probably should have strengthened at CB, but the problem was who to bring in that was good enough to replace an injured/suspended Jansson but who would also be happy to sit on the bench. We have been a bit unlucky to lose 3 CBs so early in the season, can't legislate for that. If there is a concern, I can see TC going for an emergency loan (is that still a thing?). No need to panic for tonight, it's a distraction, but if neither Cooper nor Jansson were available for Saturday, I'd be concerned.

This is the crux of the argument as really the only option was to get someone who was going to be a first team starter alongside PJ. You couldn't expect anyone decent to simply come in as back-up. I am sure TC saw something in Cooper that made him think that he was good enough to be first choice (and Cooper's early season form justifies that decision) and also saw Pennington as a decent centreback so the question would be could we sign someone that was better than both of them? Obviously there were lot of names bandied about but were any of those better than what we had (when everyone is fit)? We cannot simply stockpile centrebacks in case we have the first 3 choices injured all at the same time.

No emergency loan system any more which is why I presume we recalled Bailey Peacock-Farrell in case we had an injury to Felix.

With regard to Shaugnessy just because he hasn't been a centreback previously doesn't mean he can't be a decent centreback. At my Sundayleague club we had a player who came to us as a right winger and was on the fringes of our first team. Looked okay as a right winger but nothing spectacular. A few weeks into the season and we were playing 5 a side and it struck me how good he was at tackling and so I had a word with him about playing in defence. He was a bit dubious at first but by the end of the season he was comfortably our fist choice centreback, won Player's Player of the season and Manager's Player of the Season and I had also made him captain. No doubt TC has seen something in Shaugnessy that makes him think he can be a decent centreback and is more then comfortable playing him in league matches.

We might end up playing 1 or 2 matches with our 4th and 5th choice centrebacks playing but hopefully the injuries will prove minor and TC will soon have a dilemma over which 2 to pick when they are all available.

[1964white]

This is the crux of the argument as really the only option was to get someone who was going to be a first team starter alongside PJ. You couldn't expect anyone decent to simply come in as back-up. I am sure TC saw something in Cooper that made him think that he was good enough to be first choice (and Cooper's early season form justifies that decision) and also saw Pennington as a decent centreback so the question would be could we sign someone that was better than both of them? Obviously there were lot of names bandied about but were any of those better than what we had (when everyone is fit)? We cannot simply stockpile centrebacks in case we have the first 3 choices injured all at the same time

No emergency loan system any more which is why I presume we recalled Bailey Peacock-Farrell in case we had an injury to Felix.

With regard to Shaugnessy just because he hasn't been a centreback previously doesn't mean he can't be a decent centreback. At my Sundayleague club we had a player who came to us as a right winger and was on the fringes of our first team. Looked okay as a right winger but nothing spectacular. A few weeks into the season and we were playing 5 a side and it struck me how good he was at tackling and so I had a word with him about playing in defence. He was a bit dubious at first but by the end of the season he was comfortably our fist choice centreback, won Player's Player of the season and Manager's Player of the Season and I had also made him captain. No doubt TC has seen something in Shaugnessy that makes him think he can be a decent centreback and is more then comfortable playing him in league matches.

We might end up playing 1 or 2 matches with our 4th and 5th choice centrebacks playing but hopefully the injuries will prove minor and TC will soon have a dilemma over which 2 to pick when they are all available.

So are we overloaded in the middle of the park & on the flanks where we have 14 players fighting for 5 places when we play one upfront ?
We only have 8 defenders vying for the 4 defensive positions

If that is the case your argument doesn't stand up Weasel

All this juggling about playing players out of their natural positions is not a recipe for success imo.
Would be fine if we had someone with class of a Paul Madeley in our set-up, truth is we haven't !

If both Pontus & Cooper are missing v Ipswich & for future games we are in deep trouble & my argument which I brought up in Monk's era last season will be totally justified. We can't afford to fanny about with the spine of the team especially as there is no loan system in place anymore

[Cjay]

I can find an argument for us being stronger all over the pitch but for centre half.

Look back on 1st game of the season, no Pontus.

Yes we had injuries etc but Gary Madine with the greatest of respect is an old fashioned lump.

Big and strong and good in the air that is all he is. He bullied the cbs that day.

Would he of bullied Pontus who apart from being a beast of a man is a full 2 inches taller than Madine? No i dont think so.

Would he of bullied Bartley (dont like to hark back but necessary) same height as Pontus . Not for me.

If we had signed Harlee Dean who won more headers then Bartley last season i read somewhere despite being shorter (still a big bloke) ? I doubt it.

Cooper, Dean, Jansson fighting for the 2 spaces with Pennington as back up would fill me with confidence.

3 experienced cbs (one who most thought wasnt good enough to start up until this season) with a highly rated lad as back up.

Cooper, Jansson, Pennington and Shaunie im afraid doesnt, but is what it is.

[1964white]

We'll only have ourselves to blame if the current dilemma does cost us points especially if all the good work early doors has been undone by Christmas !

[weasel]

So are we overloaded in the middle of the park & on the flanks where we have 14 players fighting for 5 places when we play one upfront ?
We only have 8 defenders vying for the 4 defensive positions

If that is the case your argument doesn't stand up Weasel

Huge difference in that in most matches the wide players are the ones who get substituted as you put fresh legs on to run at defenders. Or you sub a centre midfielder who is knackered to bring someone on with 'fresh legs.' Very rare you sub a defender unless they are injured or having an absolute nightmare of a game. Likewise starting selection you can chop and change with wingers but you try to get a settled back 4.

We have 8 defenders - out of that 4 are specialist centrebacks and 2 can play centreback. 3 (Ayling, Berardi and Anita) can play right back, 4 can play left back (CBJ, Berardi, Anita and Cooper). As such 8 defenders should be enough barring a horrendous injury situation.

That is not me saying that we shouldn't have been looking to strengthen the centreback position if someone was available who was better than we have but I am saying that we didn't just need someone to be 4th/5th/6th choice i case of injuries.

[Gandalf]

TC has stated that he is perfectly happy with our CB options, and who am I to argue. Shaughnessy my MOM last night, and Ayling not too far behind him, up against a Prem strike force of Vokes, Barnes and Wood. Flawless, the pair of them. Plus Pontus, Cooper and Pennington are all available for Saturday.

[danhirons]

Big concern for me, probably the biggest we have

All for showing faith in young players but O'Shaughnessy wasnt even a cb till July

And he is now our only fully fit cb.

Greatest of respect to Cooper (who has surprised us all so far). Pennington (talented) amd O'Shaughnessey (done well).

But Pontus is so far ahead of the 3 and if he was to get injured seriously, which wouldn't be a surprise with his injury troubles in Italy, then im fearful

Look at our opponents before last, Birmingham had 3 of the best Championship cbs available and at least 2 of them are better then Cooper imo, Harlee Dean, Marc Roberts and Michael Morrison.

We apparently did try for Dean, he choose Blues so clearly were after a cb, think its a case of wanted a cb and failed rather than didn't want one but club wont say that of course. Not going to criticise Orta and co to much but privately l think they know they made a mistake, especially with no emergency loan agailable.

can't remember the last time you made a post that didn't mention harlee dean!

In my opinion, Birmingham shipped a load of goals since he's arrived and costing only 2 million he can't have been that highly rated - even if he was out of contract at the end of the season.

Think we're probably okay at centre back unless we were going to sign someone like Bartley who would be a starter ahead of cooper. Two covering centre backs + Ayling probably okay for cover

[Cjay]

can't remember the last time you made a post that didn't mention harlee dean!

In my opinion, Birmingham shipped a load of goals since he's arrived and costing only 2 million he can't have been that highly rated - even if he was out of contract at the end of the season.

Think we're probably okay at centre back unless we were going to sign someone like Bartley who would be a starter ahead of cooper. Two covering centre backs + Ayling probably okay for cover

Have banged on about him quite a bit i do admit

He was named there fans player of the year despite Jota being there, i wasnt that obsessed till i saw some statistics somewhere online where he was compared to Bartley last season and beat him individually every single time.

But after last night O'Shaughnessy was brilliant, so dont need another cb

[1964white]

TC has stated that he is perfectly happy with our CB options, and who am I to argue. Shaughnessy my MOM last night, and Ayling not too far behind him, up against a Prem strike force of Vokes, Barnes and Wood. Flawless, the pair of them. Plus Pontus, Cooper and Pennington are all available for Saturday.

Ayling got caught out in the air on a couple of occasions last night, even so he had a very good game playing out of his natural position.
Shaugnhessy looks a real star not showing any rawness whatsoever v the Clarets, seems like the boy has turned into man with that performance

TC has confirmed Pontus, Penn & Coops are fit to start v the Tractor Boys which is great news & a huge boost. Hope Thomas isn't kidding us