Victor Orta report

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Clive » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:11 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:47 pm
Agreed it's just football so let Heck do his job till he's no longer in it ...

Rooti' for ya PH
I'm calling for him to be sacked, not killed.

Why are you so supportive of him?

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Cjay » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:35 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:47 pm
Agreed it's just football so let Heck do his job till he's no longer in it ...

Rooti' for ya PH
But he's doing it badly . . . . . :oops:

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:43 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:35 pm
But he's doing it badly . . . . . :oops:
No worse than TC ...24 points in 21 games
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:44 pm

So if we give a no name manager like TC 30 games then a PH deserves at least the rest of the season
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by 1964white » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:46 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:44 pm
So if we give a no name manager like TC 30 games then a PH deserves at least the rest of the season
Of course Faaip he deserves the rest of the season :tup:

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Returning to subject

I'm curious about our policy of so many U23 arrivals from all over the globe but if 50% come good and are saleable/playable for us in whatever division then Orta is going to look a genius. I have no problem with him unless he's interfering with team selection at any time.

Would rather have a couple of first team regulars but this seems to be our way forward...young cheap players and young cheap managers
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Cjay » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:46 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:44 pm
So if we give a no name manager like TC 30 games then a PH deserves at least the rest of the season
I'm alright with the rest of the season, over now anyways.

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Always was the minute we needed 2 points a game ROS
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Richard » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:30 pm

All things considered so far

Samu Saiz- 8 - initially I felt he was a superstar in the making but last 2-3 games he has cost the team a few chances with greed when a pass was on.
Mateusz Klich- 5 - how can it be higher when we agree to loan him out, a bit mystified who gave the okay to send him out on loan
Pawel Cibicki- 5 - First couple of games looked okay but then lost it
Vurnon Anita- 5 - Feel a bit sorry for him, should be a defensive midfield player, I haven't seen him play that position but he sucks at LB
Matthew Pennington- 5- Always got a mistake in him, if he ever makes the Everton first team I'll be amazed.
Felix Wiedwald- 3 - He is better than Rachuubka but that's it.
Gianni Alioski- 7 - He divides opinion but I like him, he needs an understanding coach and a strong captain on the field to stop the play acting.
Jay-Roy Grot- 4- I don't believe we will ever see a great striker in this one.
Caleb Ekuban- 6 - I like what he does off the ball but he doesn't score goals and a striker who doesn't score goals, well....
CBJ- 4- Awful glad he went back.
Pierre Lasogga- 7 - We need better, did a scouting mission not uncover how slow he is or how he is useless in the air.
Andy Lonergan -3- On par with Felix I'd say

Finally Victor Orta- 4 - Signings simply not good enough. The appointment of TC was not good enough, the appointment of PH and paying £500k for him to be released from a contract sounds criminal. The need for a CB has not been addressed, January we ignored the need for a new Keeper. I fail to understand all the U23 Spanish players joining, if you are 22-23 you should have already broken into the first team. The signing of the next Japanese version of Bremner is farcical, he can't even break into a second tier Spanish outfit.

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by 1964white » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:05 am

Radz/Orta are the main reason for our demise but how anyone could issue death threats on Orta is totally beyond my comprehension

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by weasel » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am

Richard wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:30 pm
I fail to understand all the U23 Spanish players joining, if you are 22-23 you should have already broken into the first team. The signing of the next Japanese version of Bremner is farcical, he can't even break into a second tier Spanish outfit.
Most of the players are not aged 22 or 23 it is just that for some reason the league is U23 - although even then I think you are allowed a few over 23s. Why they just don't call it the reserves league I don't know, presumably someone's idea to ensure lot of younger players get matches but the matches are of such poor quality and intensity that I don't think they benefit greatly.

However that said a 22 year old that might not be good enough for Barca's first or reserve team may be more than good enough to break into a championship side. A lot of players these days simply get lost at big clubs who have stockpiled far too many youngsters (to a much greater extent than we have). I would hope that a few would go out on loan next season to play matches (or ideally some start for the first team and are very good players but that is probably wishful thinking at this stage).

I can see the logic of sending our Japanese signing to Spain as it gives him a bit of a chance to acclimatise to Europe - admittedly Spain is a tad warmer but at least it has got him away from Japan so he is getting a bit more used to completely different surroundings/language etc. The trouble is that CL have their own interests to look after and that is their primary concern rather than playing our player. They, I believe, are fighting relegation so it is not an ideal situation to throw him into. But it is no different really to us sending a player out on loan in Engand and them not getting regular football as was the case with Wilkes who seemed to simply be a bench player despite appearing to be scoring goals when he came on - or just ask MU who sent us CBJ but we didn't play him.
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by radebe88 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:34 am

Updated list..............

Last year loanees made permanent
Jansson - Obviously a very happy signing all round and our best defender post premier league days by a country mile.
Hadi Sacko - Bemusing signing for £1.6 million considering he was awful last season and has done nothing to saw any real potential other than a good break away goal against Burnley.

Signings by order of date signed
Madger Gomes - Hasnt really been near the first team and havent heard about him setting the world on fire.
Klich - I actually liked the look of him, similar style to Forshaw without the opportunity under TC
Weidwald - I have been desperate for him to turn things around but it has become clear that he just isnt good enough.
Anita - awful signing. He has been one of the worst player on the pitch where every he has played.
Ekuban - Not good enough. pleasing at times because he puts himself about. But so did Noel Hunt. At 24 this month should be in his prime
Saiz - My favourite signing in well over a decade. Premier league quality!
Alioski - A good signing. hasn't impressed me as much as other bang on about him but leagues ahead of Sacko in ability.
Bouy - Who knows? disappeared of the face of the earth. Must be awful to not get in at CL or here during the bad run.
Grot - Terrible so far but is getting what he needs now in the u23's and confidence is coming back. Would keep him for a few years to see what happens.
Lonergan - Has done what he was here to do. Be back up
Cibicki - Utterly dreadful. Isnt a winger, isnt a striker. get a hair cut and leave.
Ideguchi - Again strange that he got sent away when we need a central midfielder. Highly rated though so get a chance next season.
De Bock - Actually ok most of games but, cannot take the risks with his concentration levels. terrible sunday league mistakes at times.
Forshaw - Really like him, reminds me of Scott Parker in his prime at Chelsea. combative for his size and sets the tempo.
Roberts - Will be sent out on loan next season and never heard of again. West Brom laughing that we paid £2.5m. I actually dont think he is injured. Orta just doesn't want us to see the waste of money.

Loanees
Pennington - At times looks good but too many mistakes and misplaced passes. Also isnt big or strong enough at this level
CBJ - What a joke
Lasogga - would love him permanently. Good finisher and works harder than he gets credit for. learning this division all the time,

So as you see from the players in BOLD that is a generous 8 out of 20 if you include players im willing to give a chance next season to.

Onto the youngsters brought in. There are 13 and if you click the link below you can see the full list to remind your self.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%8 ... #Transfers

Adrián Balboa, Hugo Diaz, Bryce Hosannah, Alejandro Machuca, Oriol Rey, Ousama Siddiki, Kun Temenuzhkov, Ryan Edmondson, Aapo Halme, Oliver Šarkić, Sam Dalby, Pascal Struijk, Jordan Stevens.

Some of these signings were from Barcelona, Real Madrid and Benfica and none of them are even close to the first team and in some cases i havent heard a single thing about them all season. Any young player that really makes it is at least pushing for the bench after a full season.......... so i rate these signings 0/13.

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:45 am

I don't think that we're expecting 30% of these players to play for the first team on a regular basis. It has the feel of a farm system where we hopefully profit down the line but we get to skim the cream...hopefully
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by radebe88 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:12 pm

faaip wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:45 am
I don't think that we're expecting 30% of these players to play for the first team on a regular basis. It has the feel of a farm system where we hopefully profit down the line but we get to skim the cream...hopefully
It’s more that the money that has been spent in total could have bought 3/4 quality first team players though which possibly leads to promotion

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by faaip » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:16 pm

Don't disagree, I don't think it's a good strategy for a club struggling in the second division but that seems to be the direction we've taken.
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Richard » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:07 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am
Most of the players are not aged 22 or 23 it is just that for some reason the league is U23 - although even then I think you are allowed a few over 23s. Why they just don't call it the reserves league I don't know, presumably someone's idea to ensure lot of younger players get matches but the matches are of such poor quality and intensity that I don't think they benefit greatly.

However that said a 22 year old that might not be good enough for Barca's first or reserve team may be more than good enough to break into a championship side. A lot of players these days simply get lost at big clubs who have stockpiled far too many youngsters (to a much greater extent than we have). I would hope that a few would go out on loan next season to play matches (or ideally some start for the first team and are very good players but that is probably wishful thinking at this stage).

I can see the logic of sending our Japanese signing to Spain as it gives him a bit of a chance to acclimatise to Europe - admittedly Spain is a tad warmer but at least it has got him away from Japan so he is getting a bit more used to completely different surroundings/language etc. The trouble is that CL have their own interests to look after and that is their primary concern rather than playing our player. They, I believe, are fighting relegation so it is not an ideal situation to throw him into. But it is no different really to us sending a player out on loan in Engand and them not getting regular football as was the case with Wilkes who seemed to simply be a bench player despite appearing to be scoring goals when he came on - or just ask MU who sent us CBJ but we didn't play him.
It might be just me getting it wrong but... I'm sure each time a news story came out about another signing he was actually 21 or 22 years old. I take your point but on the not606 forum one of the guys goes to watch the U23's regularly and hes impression of the quality isn't great. Coach is Spanish, nearly the entire team is Spanish, all instructions and yelling from the sidelines is Spanish, something is wrong with that in my opinion anyway

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by weasel » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:07 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:12 pm
It’s more that the money that has been spent in total could have bought 3/4 quality first team players though which possibly leads to promotion
I doubt the money spent on the youth side of recruitment would amount to more than 1 player of first team quality and cost. For me it is simply a case of the club not putting all their eggs in 1 basket i.e. spending it all on the first team but then having no back up plan if we failed to win promotion.

The trouble is fans want success immediately and this policy will not bring it.
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by weasel » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:17 pm

Richard wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:07 pm
It might be just me getting it wrong but... I'm sure each time a news story came out about another signing he was actually 21 or 22 years old. I take your point but on the not606 forum one of the guys goes to watch the U23's regularly and hes impression of the quality isn't great. Coach is Spanish, nearly the entire team is Spanish, all instructions and yelling from the sidelines is Spanish, something is wrong with that in my opinion anyway
Sounds like the guy from not606 is Ian Harte. It has been shown that the majority of the side is still british but similarly to the first team I don't see the harm in adding a bit of continental quality to a core british group. Having lived in Spain I wouldn't be surprised if the coach is actually communicating in English but because of the way the Spanish pronounce some letters differently it might have sounded Spanish. Take the word urgent for example. Now that is pronounced ur gent - we can all agree on that. In Spanish the word urgent is spelt urgente. So you would look at that and think ok maybe they pronounce it ur gent e. But no it is pronounced hor hen tee. So if you are stood on the sideline and you hear the spanish coach saying urgent in english it would likely still come out closer to horhente and you wouldn't have a clue he was actually speaking english. Many Spanish words are incredibly similar to english words just an extra vowel stuck on the end so people make the mistake of thinking it is an easy language to learn and understand but the pronunciation is a killer.
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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Richard » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:32 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:17 pm
Sounds like the guy from not606 is Ian Harte. It has been shown that the majority of the side is still british but similarly to the first team I don't see the harm in adding a bit of continental quality to a core british group. Having lived in Spain I wouldn't be surprised if the coach is actually communicating in English but because of the way the Spanish pronounce some letters differently it might have sounded Spanish. Take the word urgent for example. Now that is pronounced ur gent - we can all agree on that. In Spanish the word urgent is spelt urgente. So you would look at that and think ok maybe they pronounce it ur gent e. But no it is pronounced hor hen tee. So if you are stood on the sideline and you hear the spanish coach saying urgent in english it would likely still come out closer to horhente and you wouldn't have a clue he was actually speaking english. Many Spanish words are incredibly similar to english words just an extra vowel stuck on the end so people make the mistake of thinking it is an easy language to learn and understand but the pronunciation is a killer.
I did read the Ian Harte thing a while beack but in fairness the guy on the other forum picked up on it weeks before the Harte article. I wasn't there so I can't comment first hand on the way instructions were pronounced :tup:

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Re: Victor Orta report

Post by Brader » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:44 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:17 pm
Sounds like the guy from not606 is Ian Harte. It has been shown that the majority of the side is still british but similarly to the first team I don't see the harm in adding a bit of continental quality to a core british group.
This is one thing that really winds me up. Harte is a football agent. He had 2 lads on the bench and was sulking about it. There was plenty of people at that game including someone I know personally who called it bullshit at the time and that’s all it is. A lot of the “yeah but he was shouting in Spanish” was actually orta from the stands who was observing - and to be fair - if I was scouting for a Spanish second division you’d probably see me shouting “go on lad” rather than looking for a Spanish equivalent. Wasted time and effort into things like this really piss me off.

Cellino ripped the youth squads to pieces - he underfunded them, signed players on weird and dodgy as f**k backhanders (McKay twins anyone) and they were both either bottom, or close to the bottom of their respected leagues.

The U18s are third and U23s have lost 2 in the last 11. Fair play I say. I Couldn’t give a s**t if half of them were from mars. A fair few of them look handy and should raise the overall standard expected.

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