TC - Stay or Go?

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well?

Needs time
15
58%
Out of his class, he cannot turn this round
7
27%
I really don't know
4
15%
 
Total votes: 26

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby weasel » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:07 pm

1964white wrote:So a relegation battle would be no surprise then ?


It is certainly a possibility. If you look at the last few seasons we have consistently been mid table at best. Last year was possibly, and quite probably a one-off in terms of us threatening promotion. As I have mentioned previously if you take Chris Wood out of last season's team then we are mid table at best - similarly you could take Ross McCormack's goals away in previous season's and we would have been nearer the bottom than mid table.

You had the misfortune to witness a lot of awful matches last season but also saw us win a lot of those matches by the odd goal. These results were usually down to a combination of 2 or 3 things from the following list of 4

a) Usually us scoring one of our few chances through either Wood or a Bartley/Jannson header from a set play.
b) Bartley and PJ defending really well
c) Green performing heroics
d) The opposition squandering their best chance(s)

We rode our luck for a large part of last season and the results largely masked us actually being a very ordinary/poor side. A bit similar to when Blackburn won the league title we only had 4 decent players (whereas they had Flowers, Hendry, Batty & Shearer we had Green, Bartley, PJ and Wood). The summer saw us take too many gambles transfer wise and whilst initially it all looked promising now the decisions made in the recruitment of players look like cheap options that simply aren't good enough. I made the compariso to Cellino's first season in charge where he recruited from Italy and initially a lot of players impressed (people being wowed by Bianchi's composure in midfield, Antenucci's creativity and ability to score spectacular goals, Doukara's initial good form etc). Signings that first looked promising (the swedish midfielder lad on loan from AC Milan for example) but quickly it became clear they weren't really any better than the players they had replaced, just cheaper.

So realistically at this point in time we have gone from a team that was solely reliant on Wood for goals to a team that now hasn't got Wood. Somehow we have to make up for the lack of Wood's goals and to do this TC has been given a cheap option loan striker that has hardly kicked a ball for a season (no wonder he still doesn't look fully fit), an injured striker (Ekuban) that has come from having a good season in Albania, a swedish striker (Cibicki) who doesn't appear to have any physical strength and would appear to not be what TC wanted judging by his lack of minutes, a young dutch striker (Grot) that has o real pedigree for scoring goals or a player signed last season (Roofe) but who has seemingly lost the pace he had and has no physical presence (contrast him to Ollie Watkins for Brentford - both similar players but one a huge threat and one anonymous). Our lack of goals is not down to TC but the lack of signing a ready made player (even a Nugent/Rhodes type signing would have been a better option).

Defensively we were fairly tight last season but only when PJ and Bartley played together. For whatever reason their individual strengths combined well. We heard various names being mentioned in the summer yet ended up relying on a loan signing (Pennington) who hadn't played much due to injury and the majority of his matches were at league 1 level. A player (Cooper) that was seen by many as inadequate back up last season yet has probably played more games than anyone at centreback this season and a young inexperienced midfielder (Shaugnessy) that has been converted to a centre back.

Midfield wise and although we have strengthened a bit attacking wise with Saiz and Alioski TC has still had to fill the rest of his midfield with a player that was continually overlooked (O'Kane) by Monk and a player that is widely not highly thought of (Phillips) by a lot of fans. For some reason Klich hasn't had much of a look in but that doesn't mean that he is good enough (similar in a way to how the likes of Luke Murphy was deemed better by virtue of not being in the team yet never really looked the part when selected). Midfield is possibly the only area where you could claim we are stronger this season but it is still a weak area for us and just like last year we are very easily over run at times).

In goal and again the powers that be appear to have taken the cheap option. They could have signed Stockdale, last season's championship Keeper of the year, but no doubt he would have requested high wages. This may also have been the case with Green as he likely was offered an incentive laced contract by Cellino and as such when he signed his new deal probably got a pay rise. For all TC probably wanted a ball playing keeper it would have been down to Orta to come up with the potential signings and having spent money on FW I would have thought TC was under pressure then to play him. Green leaving was a straightforward money saving decision as Lonerghan would have been on much lower wages having been back up at Wolves.

So all in all we are a weaker team than last season where Wood's goals and a solid defence/keeper papered over a lot of cracks for the first three quarters of the season. We are a team that has lost all the glue (Green, Bartley and Wood) that kept that paper in place and replaced it with a bit of spit (feel free to use your imaginations to change the letter p there).

TC may have had the answers to what went wrong for us last season but last season he would have had a better team. I would also point out to those reaching for the trigger that if Pep Guardiola didn't have his reputation he would have surely been fired last season at Man City. However to change a team's style of play even with the quality of players City have takes time and TC is trying to do the same thing with us but with players picked up at the opposite end of the price spectrum to those at City. If we simply sack the manager every time things go wrong we will never address the real problem which is the quality of signings made by the club over the last 10 years or more. Signing unknowns and hoping they all blend does occasionally work but it requires as much luck, if not more, as it does judgement.
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Norm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:19 am

Excellent post weasel - you don't tell us what your solutions could be but you do point out what the dilemna is/would be for present/future managers.

Also about Pep - this season is his 'normal' revelation (oxymorons aside) and the Citeh board gave him time. With scums losses to the dog-botherers and Chelscum they have turned up trumps so far.

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby weasel » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:28 am

Solutions are far from easy and I certainly don't think a new manager would do anything other than paper over the cracks once more - maybe get the initial new manager effect and get a couple of wins but as shown by the Bristol result TC is capable of changing things and getting wins - dropping star player and changing the formation worked for that match.

The key is scoring goals and we haven't really been creating many opportunities of late. The final ball just seems to be off target and we aren't creating good chances. I feel a bit sorry for Lasogga as he is getting the lack of service that Wood got last year and it seems that he gets frustrated very easily which then compounds the problem as he then stops making the runs meaning it is even less likely we will get the ball to him. There is definitely a good finisher in him but he won't score goals if we don't create chances.

Once we score goals we need to get back to being good defensively and that involves the whole team closing down better. I think some players have got a bit lazy and some players are just out of form. The key here would seem to be PJ whose form is poor compared to last season.

The keeper situation will resolve itself to a large degree if we defend better. FW kept 6 clean sheets and hardly had a save to make during that period. If we can get back to defending well then there are less errors for our keepers to make be it FW or AL.

Midfield and O'Kane is a shadow of the player who was getting all the plaudits from the fans at the start of the season. Phillips blows a bit hot and cold and we have to live with that but we need someone who will get a 7 out of 10 every match alongside him and at the moment O'Kane has stopped being that player.

Over to TC to find the solutions and paper over the cracks until the transfer window opens and then it is up to Orta to find the right signings.
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby paddy parrott » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:53 am

He should stay and have of course more time. Weasel I can't agree more mate your comments are spot on . Certain players individually not playing well and a good number of them too isn't good.. Why? Wish I knew . But crucially Jannson is one and probably both full backs aswell. Midfield is missing steel and out wide players are not delivering enough though for me Lassogga isn't getting the proper service I believe he isn't the answer when the team is struggling . He also needs time but his fitness is questionable and dare I say desire when he needs to show more leading the line.

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Cjay » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:09 pm

weasel wrote:Easy to say that errors didn't cost us the game and suggest that pressure led to the errors but it wasn't really the case. We had weathered Brentford's early storm and had just started playing a bit of football ourselves when we conceded the first goal.

Second half was fairly even and anyone could have got the decisive goal but to concede a soft goal at that late stage fairly much meant the game was over - however by contrast to them scoring from a poor free kick we put in an excellent free kick a minute or so later which had 3 of our players queuing up to score but unfortunately it fell to Ayling.

In comparison to our capitulation last season to Brentford this was a much better performance. We also have to remember that TC inherited a team that was in freefall at the end of last season. Perhaps the good results early on in the season were the fluke and we have an average team that lost a lot of matches at the end of last season and has again now. TC certainly didn't inherit a team nailed on for a play-off place and as I have mentioned previously take Chris Wood out of last year's team and we finish bottom half.

What we have seen since our disastrous losing run at the end of last season is 4 of our better players leave (Taylor, Wood, Bartley & Green) and they have been replaced by a Cellino-esque scattergun approach where we have signed quantity instead of proven quality. The only player that really has looked the part consistently has been Saiz with Alioski and Pennington the only other players that are probably even first team squad standard. So [b]we have a vastly weakened team compared to last season and as such we have a weaker side than a team that won only 1 of their last 8 matches at the end of last season [/b](or 2 in 11 going even further back).

We have a weaker team than we did when Brentford completely outplayed us, a weaker team than one that got outplayed by a relegation threatened Burton when we were trying to get promoted, a weaker team than the one that ended the season with a limp draw at Wigan who had already been relegated.

As such we need to get a grip on reality. TC is not a miracle worker. I would suggest he hugely overachieved earlier on in the season and also somehow had us playing some eye-catching football in comparison to the drivel served up for a lot of last season, even when we were winning. We have lost most of the successful parts of the team (Green, Bartley, Taylor & Wood) and kept the average players that no one really wanted. The only player we have kept that had any real value is Pontus Jannsen and he is a pale shadow of the player he was. Ayling, Berardi, Cooper, O'Kane, Phillips, Dallas, Roofe etc - do you really think any premiership team or even top 6 championship side would have been trying to sign them?

But hey we are Leeds and we should be walking the division despite not spending as much money as we recouped in the transfer market and despite us losing 4 of our best players.

We flattered to deceive last season but in reality we are a very average team in a highly competitive division. Whereas most teams strengthened we significantly weakened and gambled on a lot of players that so far have not looked the part apart from in brief glimpses.


Great post :clapshout:

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Cjay » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:13 pm

For those Leeds fans who are wanting Christiansen sacked, it may be worth looking at Dean Smith’s record from January 2016 onwards. Ten defeats in 13 games. Most clubs would have sacked him. The question is whether any big club can be that patient to let a manager have time.

This is from the Brentford forum.

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Most clubs needing promotion probably would have sacked him, fortunately for Dean small club Brentford had time to work it out. Dean Smith also had a good record in England as a manager before he went to Brentford with league 1 Wallsall.
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby danhirons » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:31 pm

Cjay wrote:For those Leeds fans who are wanting Christiansen sacked, it may be worth looking at Dean Smith’s record from January 2016 onwards. Ten defeats in 13 games. Most clubs would have sacked him. The question is whether any big club can be that patient to let a manager have time.

This is from the Brentford forum.


could just as easily say, look at Zola's record at Birmingham :duno:

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby weasel » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:17 pm

danhirons wrote:could just as easily say, look at Zola's record at Birmingham :duno:


Maybe Zola should have been given more games to turn it around.....
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Cjay » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:04 pm

Way i look at it is.

New manager has this team till January, could he do better? Perhaps . . But he could do worse.

Has TC got the cb and lb he would have wanted, no.

Have we played some lovely stuff, yes.

Bristol city, Notts forest, Sunderland, Birmingham, Burton, even the Brentford game was an improvement on last season.

Can remember the people who go to the most games saying so many times in one way or another we were lucky, even when we won, it was rarely a convincing performance.

Tc has managed numerous convincing ones, causing waxing lyrical from all corners of the fan base, division and media.

That wasnt the case last season, or in any recent seasons. Ive been a forum peeper for a while and whenever teams fans talked about us they were critical of our performances win or lose , and by and large if we are honest it was fair.

We are having a bed spell, but we have had better performances this season then we have had for years, better football even our defence up until recently has looked good. A defence missing its captain from last season and who has 2 of its most consistent performers last season having really poor seasons by those standards.

If we had last seasons Ayling, Pontus, Bartley, Taylor and Green, this thread probably wouldn't exist.

Tc cant be blamed for Bartley and Taylor going, and for all we know Green wanted more money which he will get sat on Hudders bench. And as for Ayling and Jansson, can TC be blamed, perhaps, but at the end of the day individual mistakes are down to the individual first and foremost.

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:36 pm

Green was contracted here for another season at original cost IIRC, don't remember any "pay me more or I go" stand from him. He'd have been happy to stay as first team goalie. I'd be the same if I wasn't going to play I might at least earn more money doing it. I'd have made the same choice. (Actually I'd have watched the Weidwald game tape and realised I'd be starting before long, but still)

I think he may have even stayed to fight for his place in pre season but Felix starting was written in stone and Green realised it was a fight he'd have to fight with both arms tied behind his back ...which is an irony because that's how ....no, too easy
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:47 pm

I actually think we have better players in the main here this season. Vierra is another year better. Klich looks quality, Beradi is Beradi. Phillips looks twice the player. Saiz is the best flair man we've had in a while and Alioski is a massive upgrade on the wing on Sacko and Roofe.

We still have Pablo, Dallas, O'Kane, Roofe et al, Shog is going to be a hell of a player and we started the season with a good goalkeeper and TC could have/should have started him..bringing Weidwald along slowly

Ayling is having a poor run but despite all the criticism we all know he has the talent...or we should.

I like most of the players and as ever for me it's the coaching that everything starts from including Tactics, Fitness, Team Selection and Substitutions.
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Durly » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:47 pm

faaip wrote:Green was contracted here for another season at original cost IIRC, don't remember any "pay me more or I go" stand from him. He'd have been happy to stay as first team goalie. I'd be the same if I wasn't going to play I might at least earn more money doing it. I'd have made the same choice. (Actually I'd have watched the Weidwald game tape and realised I'd be starting before long, but still)

I think he may have even stayed to fight for his place in pre season but Felix starting was written in stone and Green realised it was a fight he'd have to fight with both arms tied behind his back ...which is an irony because that's how ....no, too easy


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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Cjay » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:54 pm

faaip wrote:Green was contracted here for another season at original cost IIRC, don't remember any "pay me more or I go" stand from him. He'd have been happy to stay as first team goalie. I'd be the same if I wasn't going to play I might at least earn more money doing it. I'd have made the same choice. (Actually I'd have watched the Weidwald game tape and realised I'd be starting before long, but still)

I think he may have even stayed to fight for his place in pre season but Felix starting was written in stone and Green realised it was a fight he'd have to fight with both arms tied behind his back ...which is an irony because that's how ....no, too easy


But if he wanted to play then why didnt he go somewhere he would have started?

Never was going to be anymore then backup at Huddersfield, he knew that when he signed.

Just because he never said publicly "pay me more or im off" doesnt mean he didnt privately.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of Wiedwald being number 1, Green made a choice to go for more money to be backup, rather then either staying here and fight for his place, or based on last seasons form, going to somewhere else for less money and being number 1.

He made a decision to be a backup on more money, dont begrudge him that, but he went for a larger payday.

Edit, and Rob was on huge wages at QPR, not short of cash, at his age, doing a job i loved, i would rather play while i still can, be it on less cash. Never thought id say this, but John Terry showed what Green could have done, he could have retired, multi millionaire, or gone to China and made shed loads more money, or sat on Chelseas bench more,but he wanted to play on, do what he loves, at a decent level, Green did the opposite.
Last edited by Cjay on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:59 pm

Durly wrote::-D



I'm beginning to write like my favourite sports analyst..worrying
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:04 pm

Cjay wrote:But if he wanted to play then why didnt he go somewhere he would have started?

Never was going to be anymore then backup at Huddersfield, he knew that when he signed.

Just because he never said publicly "pay me more or im off" doesnt mean he didnt privately.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of Wiedwald being number 1, Green made a choice to go for more money to be backup, rather then either staying here and fight for his place, or based on last seasons form, going to somewhere else for less money and being number 1.

He made a decision to be a backup on more money, dont begrudge him that, but he went for a larger payday.



I'd imagine there were no other offers or Hudds came along first. I'd have been very pissed off if I were one of the best players at the club and proven then demoted for no good reason. I'd have gone first opportunity too. I don't think we can say he may have blackmailed the club unless we have some kind of proof. Not saying mine is the correct version but it's more likely. If it comes out with some authority he did then I'll be the first to make the doll and start sticking pins in
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:05 pm

Don't let me discourage you though, your a hell of a good poster CJay and I'm a bit of an arse
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:09 pm

paddy parrott wrote:He should stay and have of course more time. Weasel I can't agree more mate your comments are spot on . Certain players individually not playing well and a good number of them too isn't good.. Why? Wish I knew . But crucially Jannson is one and probably both full backs aswell. Midfield is missing steel and out wide players are not delivering enough though for me Lassogga isn't getting the proper service I believe he isn't the answer when the team is struggling . He also needs time but his fitness is questionable and dare I say desire when he needs to show more leading the line.



Coaching, it's always the coaching.
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby Gandalf » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:53 am

faaip wrote: and I'm a bit of an arse

and remember Faaip is never wrong :wink:
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Re: TC - Stay or Go?

Postby faaip » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:00 am

Kind of you to say so ...all true
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