Where do we go from here.....?

[whiteswan]

Almost four months into the season and we are no better than the last (I quite frankly don't know) however many seasons. Something needs to change! Losing four, winning one, is not a recipe for success....we need to decide if TC is the right man (personally not for me) This is not a witch hunt, far from it, but I really do believe the man is out of his depth.
As for the players, they are simply not good enough. So where does the blame lie?
Things really do need to change or we will be in a dog fight at the bottom come the end of the season. Please don't think that this is a knee jerk reaction....things haven't been right for weeks and weeks....it needs to change. Gutted

[Haighy]

T. C. Isn't the man for me neither.
Football is all about money... the richest team at the top, the poorest at the bottom.
It's blatantly obvious that we haven't the funds to get us up.
So it's the same old, same old for us I'm afraid.

[danhirons]

We had a great opportunity this season to get three or four top quality players. Instead we opted for 9 or 10 mediocre players as usual

[60sUnited]

I wonder how much our manager is to blame. A set of players went out and did a great job on Sunday against Boro, showing skill and determination........the same bunch went out last night, admittedly against a better team, and basically caved in. Without consistency all you can hope for is mid table or lower. We probably need 4 or 5 quality players who can show some tenacity......we won't get them. Also this thing about playing a right back out of position at left back......pathetic.

[lufc1304]

So, where do we go from here? Let's say we sack TC (personally think that would be a mistake), who comes in? Who's out there and available? And whoever said individual is, they will have their own ideas, their own system and their own way of doing things. Cue wholesale changes to squad, either in Jan or at season's end and we spend yet another summer rebuilding. TC hasn't got everything right, far from it, but he's implementing a style of play that does not bed in in under half a season. It's becoming a tired comparison, I know, but look at Pep at City. Different scale, but similar pattern, took a man widely regarded as one of the very best almost 2 seasons to get City to where they are now. I think our start convinced some on here and amongst the wider fan base that we had suddenly become something special. We hadn't, but neither have we become a bad lot and certs for a relegation scrap. When it clicks. we're a very good side; when it doesn't, we can look crap. We're actually somewhere in between those two. For me, it's a case of keeping cool heads and showing some patience. If, at season end, we are no more consistent than we currently are, then fine, see ya Tommy, but until then......

[Azkal]

......"Is it down to the lake I fear"......."Ay ah ah ah ah ah"..........."Ay ah ah ah ah ah".............

[lufc1304]

hahahahaha!!! )

[Gandalf]

Personally, I think it is a knee jerk reaction, Swanny. We were beaten by a team that has owners with £50 Billion of capital behind them. We can't match that (nor can most teams in the Prem). I am happy with the vision that Radz has for the club, and I am prepared to wait for it to come to fruition. I think that TC has shown enough to prove that he has what it takes, and I will assess his work at the end of the season. I personally think that he binned off Wiedwald too soon, he did not make the type of mistakes that Lonergan has made since. Saiz and Alioski are quality players who will get better with time. What we need to cut out are the individual errors, and there is not much TC can do about that, it is down to the players. Take out these mistakes and we are competitive. We will not be involved in a relegation struggle this season, so pardon me if I don't ring the Samaritans everytime we lose a game.

[beer belly bert]

Personally, I think it is a knee jerk reaction, Swanny. We were beaten by a team that has owners with £50 Billion of capital behind them. We can't match that (nor can most teams in the Prem). I am happy with the vision that Radz has for the club, and I am prepared to wait for it to come to fruition. I think that TC has shown enough to prove that he has what it takes, and I will assess his work at the end of the season. I personally think that he binned off Wiedwald too soon, he did not make the type of mistakes that Lonergan has made since. Saiz and Alioski are quality players who will get better with time. What we need to cut out are the individual errors, and there is not much TC can do about that, it is down to the players. Take out these mistakes and we are competitive. We will not be involved in a relegation struggle this season, so pardon me if I don't ring the Samaritans everytime we lose a game.

agree with Gandalf , we need to be patient , as we saw against Boro the team can play , cut out the stupid free kicks and fouls (Ayling + Phillips ) and we should start winning more than losing , the last thing we want is back to the mad Itallians style of running a club of hire and fire policy , I'm happy to give it this season and next for the club to build .

[Azkal]

Personally, I think it is a knee jerk reaction, Swanny. We were beaten by a team that has owners with £50 Billion of capital behind them. We can't match that (nor can most teams in the Prem). I am happy with the vision that Radz has for the club, and I am prepared to wait for it to come to fruition. I think that TC has shown enough to prove that he has what it takes, and I will assess his work at the end of the season. I personally think that he binned off Wiedwald too soon, he did not make the type of mistakes that Lonergan has made since. Saiz and Alioski are quality players who will get better with time. What we need to cut out are the individual errors, and there is not much TC can do about that, it is down to the players. Take out these mistakes and we are competitive. We will not be involved in a relegation struggle this season, so pardon me if I don't ring the Samaritans everytime we lose a game.

Agree on both points. We should keep faith with TC and reassess at the end of the season. I've got to admit that I was also aghast at some of Wiedwald's displays, but in the cold light of day and with the benefit of hindsight feel that TC should not have bowed to fan pressure to replace him, (if that was indeed his reasoning to replace with Lonegan).

[Norm]

If TC can somehow overcome the fear the team appears to have when the opposition scores first, he has a good team.
This falling apart is really irrational and it puzzles me. We have some really good players who can meld into a good team - they did on Sunday, but as soon as the other side scores first we seem to fall apart. Maybe TC needs to arrange for some sports psychologist (if there is such an animal) who can get to the bottom of why this is happening. In a perfect world TC would be that too but something is definitely off kilter.

Other than that, I agree with those who say we should give him time, but he does need to find the answer to this conundrum.
If it's beyond him then he may eventually need to go. I like what he has been trying to do and I still want him to succeed.

[NorfolkWhite]

Personally, I think it is a knee jerk reaction, Swanny. We were beaten by a team that has owners with £50 Billion of capital behind them. We can't match that (nor can most teams in the Prem). I am happy with the vision that Radz has for the club, and I am prepared to wait for it to come to fruition. I think that TC has shown enough to prove that he has what it takes, and I will assess his work at the end of the season. I personally think that he binned off Wiedwald too soon, he did not make the type of mistakes that Lonergan has made since. Saiz and Alioski are quality players who will get better with time. What we need to cut out are the individual errors, and there is not much TC can do about that, it is down to the players. Take out these mistakes and we are competitive. We will not be involved in a relegation struggle this season, so pardon me if I don't ring the Samaritans everytime we lose a game.

Couldn't agree more, I still think we are one of the better teams in this division - but not always performing to the level we would like.

Last night we did look second best at times and were but we had weathered the storm got a goal back after HT (good quality goal) and were on top. RV gets sent off and the rest is history. They have players who are good enough to exploit space when we had 11, going down to 10 against them, when you are still a goal behind and can't just sit back, well you are going to leave gaping holes and the likelihood is they will get more.

Look at 'Boro - we beat them convincingly and they brought in the supposed quality proven players and recruited a known English manager spending an absolute fortune in the process and are no better (arguably worse) than us.

Having said all that we do have issues:
GK - Felix may have been dropped too soon but I've seen enough to think that we need a better option that either him or Lonners.
CB - Cooper not a week in week out man for me, has good games from time to time but not good enough overall.
LB - Berra not the long term answer, hurting him playing there, if TC doesn't fancy CBJ or Anita (haven't seen enough of either there to really decide but I would say they are not up to it on balance) we need a good quality LB in Jan.
MF - Again we have players that fit the bill (Klich) but obviously aren't seen as the answer by TC, Phillips and Vieira our best options but O'Kane not really fulfilling the "experienced" central MF role and playing second fiddle to the younger lads.

I'm going to leave CF out of the equation at the moment as we do seem to have goals in the team but not sure either Lassie, Roofe or Ekuban are the full answer either but a combination should do a job.

[Cjay]

We buy a proper left back(Joe Bryan), a proper cb (Harlee Dean)and a proper goalkeeper (Daniel Bentley).
We then buy another winger (that dutch bloke for example is a Rw) and finally we buy an experienced powerhouse cm (Mo Diame).

We make Wiedwald number 2, sell Lonners, drop Cooper for good, move Berardi to rb and Bryan to lb. Away from home we play Phillips Diame and Vieirra in a trio. Drop Pablo away from home, and use him sparingly with the new right winger being first choice.

All lovely in theory.

Not sure we could afford those players (Diame and Mahi are apparently available for about £5m together). But those are the sort we need.
A quality goalkeeper
A leader cb
A quality left back
An experienced powerhouse midfielder
A quality winger with goals in his game

Cant expect TC to challenge for promotion with a lower table defence.

[Durly]

As (mostly) always, I think the answer is somewhere in between the "sack him, he's shite" and "keep the faith, MOT" arguments.

The more we look at the Radz approach to signings, the more flawed it looks. I do genuinely think that he has the right intentions for the club and I think he has already done loads more off the pitch than the previous 3 or 4 owners.
That said, to us fans it's principally about what happens ON the pitch and, recently, we've been painfully short changed.
Last night was really a microcosm of all the things that have gone wrong the past few weeks.........We looked good until they scored first, then seemed to lose all belief and confidence........we went in 2 goals down and seemingly out of it........then we rallied and looked much better when taking the game to the opposition, scored a quality goal and looked like we could get something.........then disaster strikes with Vieira's second yellow, in theory ending the game as a contest.....despite this we continue to work the ball around well with 10 men........then we shoot ourselves in the foot again (or Pontus does) with some lame, half arsed defending for their 3rd........then Lonergan messes up the initial save and "makes up for it" by conceding a pen and Wolves are home and hosed.

On the whole, although Wolves made us look really bad for about 25 minutes in total, we were once again the architects of our own downfall and 2-1 would have been a much fairer reflection than a 4-1 gubbing.

I think that we do have some very decent players in this side - Saiz, Alioski, Pontus, Pablo being the obvious ones, but we don't have enough real quality in the squad. As someone pointed out, rather than getting in 4 or 5 QUALITY players, we got in 9 or 10 average performers (Saiz excepted.......I'd also say Alioski will be but hasn't settled as quickly). This would have been bad enough but when we lost 3 x players who were part of the main backbone of last year's side (Wood, Bartley and Green) plus losing Taylor and therefore having no natural left back in the squad, it just hasn't proved to be good enough.

I'm not 100% sure that replacing TC is the obvious answer. He has to work with what Orta chooses to bring in for him. That said, the way we have capitulated alarmingly too often after conceding first is a huge worry. We now accept that, if the opposition score first, we lose. You can blame the players for being mentally weak but it's part of TC's job to instill that mental strength in them and that doesn't seem to be something he is capable of.

I still think that there is enough quality to get us into the top 6 at the end of the season IF we add 3 or 4 genuine first team starters (we always seem to be 3 or 4 away from being contenders) in January and, realistically, looking at the business we did in the summer, this seems hugely unlikely.

I think we are all fed up with hearing about "5 year plans" and "building long term" when year after year we see the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth, Watford, Huddersfield and Swansea pass us by on the way to the promised land. We need proper investment in the squad now. A proper replacement for Wood, a tough, quality CB to partner Pontus, a goalkeeper who is capable of doing everything a keeper should do.....not just a glorified sweeper.......two more creative players to add to Saiz and Pablo, a proper left back and a central midfielder who is capable of running a game.
Without this we will continue to stagnate. In all honesty, if we're looking for scapegoats, Orta would be out of the door as quickly as, if not sooner than TC. It's impossible to know what TC's true capabilities are but we'll never know for sure if Orta keeps bringing in (with one or two exceptions) desperately mediocre players.

[lufc1304]

Durly, I like everything you say, but with regard to the clubs you mention passing us by, all of them, without exception, had plans in place, some continuity in terms of management and owners with money (relatively speaking) and patience. Something we haven't had in 12 years+. Radz has had what, 6-9 months at the helm in sole charge? He's doing good stuff, but he's only just got his feet under the table

[weasel]

Definitely think this is a knee-jerk reaction. I saw a lot of positives despite the result. Despite us going behind we really gave Wolves a fright and but for RV's red card we may have got something out of the game. Always hard to chase the game when down to 10 men unless your 10 players are considerably better than the oppositions. As it was Wolves had a player on the bench that cost £15m which is the same as the starting XI for Leeds cost. Whilst money doesn't guarantee success it certainly helps and with the calibre of players Wolves have it isn't a surprise they are doing as well as they are. They have that bit of extra quality, as shown with the free kick to open the scoring in what was an even contest up to that point.

Radrizanni came in and said his aim was to get promoted within two seasons and whilst we have heard that sort of thing before I think the transfer strategy reflects that. We haven't gone out and splashed a fortune in a huge gamble but signed players with the hope that after a year's acclimatising to the league we have a good team and can then spend a bit more on 1 or 2 areas that need an upgrade. Whilst Wolves can splash out £15m for a sub and no doubt are paying top wages I wonder what would happen if they don't get promoted as surely FFP would have to kick in at that point and they would face big penalties.

As it is let's forget last night's result, plenty of teams have lost to Wolves, and move on to the next match.

[1964white]

I think that we do have some very decent players in this side - Saiz, Alioski, Pontus, Pablo being the obvious ones, but we don't have enough real quality in the squad. As someone pointed out, rather than getting in 4 or 5 QUALITY players, we got in 9 or 10 average performers (Saiz excepted.......I'd also say Alioski will be but hasn't settled as quickly). This would have been bad enough but when we lost 3 x players who were part of the main backbone of last year's side (Wood, Bartley and Green) plus losing Taylor and therefore having no natural left back in the squad, it just hasn't proved to be good enough.

Losing Green, Bartley & Wood took the spine out of our team & were not adequately replaced

The loss of Taylor is also crucial as we are making do with Berardi whom is half the player at LB

Poor recruitment has cost us Durly

[1964white]

Definitely think this is a knee-jerk reaction. I saw a lot of positives despite the result. Despite us going behind we really gave Wolves a fright and but for RV's red card we may have got something out of the game. Always hard to chase the game when down to 10 men unless your 10 players are considerably better than the oppositions. As it was Wolves had a player on the bench that cost £15m which is the same as the starting XI for Leeds cost. Whilst money doesn't guarantee success it certainly helps and with the calibre of players Wolves have it isn't a surprise they are doing as well as they are. They have that bit of extra quality, as shown with the free kick to open the scoring in what was an even contest up to that point.

Radrizanni came in and said his aim was to get promoted within two seasons and whilst we have heard that sort of thing before I think the transfer strategy reflects that. We haven't gone out and splashed a fortune in a huge gamble but signed players with the hope that after a year's acclimatising to the league we have a good team and can then spend a bit more on 1 or 2 areas that need an upgrade. Whilst Wolves can splash out £15m for a sub and no doubt are paying top wages I wonder what would happen if they don't get promoted as surely FFP would have to kick in at that point and they would face big penalties.

As it is let's forget last night's result, plenty of teams have lost to Wolves, and move on to the next match.

Well I didn't see many positives last night although I didn't expect much tbh

Radz was expecting top six season, he'll be lucky to get that I reckon.

Recruitment has been average imo not adequately replacing what was the spine of our team last season hence why we are so vulnerable & fragile this time round !

Wolves will definitely go up as champions without question, their clinical play from back to front is the best I've seen this season, makes our play look so slow & sluggish. They have gear changes & speed like a Ferrari where as we look like a clapped out Fiat

[1964white]

agree with Gandalf , we need to be patient , as we saw against Boro the team can play , cut out the stupid free kicks and fouls (Ayling + Phillips ) and we should start winning more than losing , the last thing we want is back to the mad Itallians style of running a club of hire and fire policy , I'm happy to give it this season and next for the club to build .

Boro' & Wolves are on a different planet

We can't cope with pace & quick clever incisive movement

Boro' are a more sluggish outfit than we are hence the reason why we beat them

[1964white]

Not sure we could afford those players (Diame and Mahi are apparently available for about £5m together). But those are the sort we need.
A quality goalkeeper
A leader cb
A quality left back
An experienced powerhouse midfielder
A quality winger with goals in his game

Cant expect TC to challenge for promotion with a lower table defence.

This should have been sorted out in the summer but no we did things on the cheap once again

Green ----- Weidwald/Lonergan
Bartley---- Cooper/ Pennington
Taylor----- Borthwick-Jackson/Anita
Wood----- Lasogga/Roofe

So far only Saiz (class) & Alioski (promising) have improved our creative play but we've gone backwards in the positions we were strong last season