Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

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weasel
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by weasel » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:15 am

1964white wrote:Believe it or not I like TC, he comes across as a really nice bloke. Also enjoy his philosophy on the style of football he wants Leeds to play

After saying that fans have the right to question Christiansen's methods.
Football is a results/performances business. I wasn't convinced with our performances even during our good run in December after steadying the boat after our first rut. I could foresee the next rut coming as there were too many errors on & off the pitch, so here we are again winless in five games after some real shockers against poor opposition as the mistakes build up, players missing due to poor discipline, others carrying injuries as we approach yet another tough set of fixtures with confidence on a low once again.
I have never called for Christiansen's head but I have questioned his tactics/team selection/subs/etc,
I personally don't think it would be beneficial if we changed managers now. I'm more concerned about the clown above him upstairs Orta, he's employed to give Thomas the right tools to work with, not a bunch of no-marks who are clearly not up to the rigours of championship football.

Anyway this fickle fan :rol: is tired & ready for his bed :moggy:
Would agree with a lot of this and would argue that any coach/manager can look great when he has the squad he wants and is then able to make tactical changes or substitutions that he wants rather than having to pick from limited options for example if we had had Ekuban on the bench yesterday what a great option he would have been to bring on for the last 20 minutes so we could have hit Millwall on the break and they would have had to have been far more cautious. TC could have brought Sacko on but it certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same threat level.

For me the time to judge TC is after he has had a sufficient amount of time in charge of a strong squad. I think we all see huge limitations in our squad and even our strongest first team has weaknesses. Added to that the spate of sendings off lately and I certainly don't blame TC for the recent results. With 11 men in the second half v Millwall and Ipswich we probably win both games.

I think a lot of fans are also needlessly harsh on Orta expecting every signing to be an instant success. Even the top clubs paying £20m+ for players make signings that don't work and when you are shopping in the bargain basement leagues then some signings will not pay off. It is very easy to say spend a bit more on a proven player but even then there is no guarantee and we have had enough proven players come to the club in the past and fail miserably. Every signing we make is a gamble which is why I like the policy of signing lots of youth players as I feel that in the future these players will be acclimatised and if they then come into the first team they are more likely to succeed.
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1964white
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:55 am

weasel wrote:Would agree with a lot of this and would argue that any coach/manager can look great when he has the squad he wants and is then able to make tactical changes or substitutions that he wants rather than having to pick from limited options for example if we had had Ekuban on the bench yesterday what a great option he would have been to bring on for the last 20 minutes so we could have hit Millwall on the break and they would have had to have been far more cautious. TC could have brought Sacko on but it certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same threat level.

For me the time to judge TC is after he has had a sufficient amount of time in charge of a strong squad. I think we all see huge limitations in our squad and even our strongest first team has weaknesses. Added to that the spate of sendings off lately and I certainly don't blame TC for the recent results. With 11 men in the second half v Millwall and Ipswich we probably win both games.

I think a lot of fans are also needlessly harsh on Orta expecting every signing to be an instant success. Even the top clubs paying £20m+ for players make signings that don't work and when you are shopping in the bargain basement leagues then some signings will not pay off. It is very easy to say spend a bit more on a proven player but even then there is no guarantee and we have had enough proven players come to the club in the past and fail miserably. Every signing we make is a gamble which is why I like the policy of signing lots of youth players as I feel that in the future these players will be acclimatised and if they then come into the first team they are more likely to succeed.
Ekuban's availability could have made a huge difference :tup:

Still believe we have been left stretched in certain positions which I & many others have highlighted over the season, now our vulnerability has come to fruition with all the injuries/suspensions.
Lassoga was hobbling before leaving the pitch on Saturday so once again we could have a serious problem upfront.

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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by Oscar » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:24 am

I would give Christiansen a bit more time, however, things have got to improve drastically.

11 defeats in 21 games cannot just be written off as a "blip" or a "loss of form" that's almost half a season of us being in absolutely woeful form.

I can't really work out what Christiansen is trying to achieve atm we have absolutely no philosophy or style of play really atm.

During those first 10 games or so we played the best football I have ever seen from a Leeds side at this level, we would keep the ball on the ground and moving at all times stopping teams getting back into their defensive shape (if anyone stopped to put their foot on the ball or took one too many touches slowing us down Christiansen used to go absolutely crazy as it was all about keeping the momentum). When we went forward we were almost a 2-4-3-1 as only Jansson and Cooper would stay back, teams just couldn't defend against us because of the amount of players we commited forward (look back at some of our goals earlier in the season and you will see what I mean look at how high up the pitch the likes of Phillips,O'Kane and Ayling are). We pressed so high up the pitch that when teams tried to play out the back we forced them to kick it long and one of O'Kane/Phillips (who were excellent at the start of the season) would win the second ball and start the attack again or if they couldn't win it back we would get back into our defensive shape quickly. The counter attacking was excellent as well. The key to that start was the midfield 2 of: O'Kane and KP, and the only times we looked uncomfortable during those first 10 games in the league and cup was when teams put pressure on Phillips/O'Kane or played a 3 in midfield like Preston, Fulham and Millwall (they went with a 4-4-2 but they put focused all of their attention on O'Kane and Phillips). However, those 3 games I highlighted seem to have become a tactical reference/benchmark for any team playing us, press/overcrowd their two central midfielders and we will see a lot more of the ball plus the key players like: Saiz, Hernandez and Alioski will see less of the ball and when they do they won't get the ball where they want it as O'Kane and Phillips can't pass the ball as effectively under pressure.

I hope Forshaw has been signed becuase he is seen as the midfielder who is comfortable under pressure and the idea is to partner him with Vieira to form a midfield 2 which will allow us to build a more suitable and flexible midfield platform to go back to the exciting (and most of all hugely successful) style of football from August to September. The first 35 minutes of the second half on Saturday is genuinely the first time I have felt we have matched those standards from the start of the season not necessarily because of the goals but because of the style a fast start, pressing high up the pitch, keeping the ball moving keeping the momentum by not allowing Millwall any time and space and whenever we lost the ball we didn't panic the amount of times Milwall tried to counter attack us and had several 4 v 3 situtations in their favour but we kept our composure (Pennington in particular) and never really looked in trouble. Ultimately we ran out of energy and Christiansen made another tactical error with 10 minutes to go, however, the signs were there of what this team can achieve with a 3 at the back 3-4-2-1/3-5-2 could seriously be a great option for us. I think we need to sign another striker and we need to recall Lewie Coyle though if 3-4-2-1 is going to be effective.

The bottom line is though a continuation of: the shite performances where we lack any sort of tempo, control in the middle, complete lack of organisation without the ball/defensively, Christiansen making poor tactical decisions and it's only a matter of time until Christiansen gets sacked tbh. I also think Christiansen needs to change his man management style as well, this idea of not speaking to the players after games is just never going to work, it might work if your Pep Guardiola but not if your Thomas Christiansen as he's got nowhere near enough of a presence in football management to even consider that kind of management style. He needs to be more ruthless as well be willing to drop the likes of Cooper and Phillips, in fact if he wants to send out a real statement he would take the armband off Cooper, if he doesn't sort out this side of his management he's just going to lose the dressing room completely, also think at times he put his own pride ahead of the success of the team (playing Shaughnessy ahead of Klich in the midfield 4 times losing 3 of those games would be an example of this). I don't like how we approach the big games either that's something I didn't like even when we were doing well. Our record against the top 6 is poor.

There is a 10 day gap between Millwall and the Hull game, evidence of lessons being learned plus an improvement performance and result wise in that Hull game is an absolute must. The target for this season has to be the top 6 (the league is average really outside of the likes of Wolves, Villa, Boro and Fulham). Christiansen has got one more chance to get us back on track as far as i'm concerned, I still back him but if he can't get a reaction from the team (with 10 days to prepare) for a game against a Hull side that has won once in the last three months then it's virtually impossible to have any confidence in Christiansen tbh. The next game is vital and season defining as far as i'm concerned.
Also a keen Barcelona supporter since 2004-2005 (when they were average.)

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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by 1964white » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:51 am

Oscar wrote:I would give Christiansen a bit more time, however, things have got to improve drastically.

11 defeats in 21 games cannot just be written off as a "blip" or a "loss of form" that's almost half a season of us being in absolutely woeful form.

I can't really work out what Christiansen is trying to achieve atm we have absolutely no philosophy or style of play really atm.

During those first 10 games or so we played the best football I have ever seen from a Leeds side at this level, we would keep the ball on the ground and moving at all times stopping teams getting back into their defensive shape (if anyone stopped to put their foot on the ball or took one too many touches slowing us down Christiansen used to go absolutely crazy as it was all about keeping the momentum). When we went forward we were almost a 2-4-3-1 as only Jansson and Cooper would stay back, teams just couldn't defend against us because of the amount of players we commited forward (look back at some of our goals earlier in the season and you will see what I mean look at how high up the pitch the likes of Phillips,O'Kane and Ayling are). We pressed so high up the pitch that when teams tried to play out the back we forced them to kick it long and one of O'Kane/Phillips (who were excellent at the start of the season) would win the second ball and start the attack again or if they couldn't win it back we would get back into our defensive shape quickly. The counter attacking was excellent as well. The key to that start was the midfield 2 of: O'Kane and KP, and the only times we looked uncomfortable during those first 10 games in the league and cup was when teams put pressure on Phillips/O'Kane or played a 3 in midfield like Preston, Fulham and Millwall (they went with a 4-4-2 but they put focused all of their attention on O'Kane and Phillips). However, those 3 games I highlighted seem to have become a tactical reference/benchmark for any team playing us, press/overcrowd their two central midfielders and we will see a lot more of the ball plus the key players like: Saiz, Hernandez and Alioski will see less of the ball and when they do they won't get the ball where they want it as O'Kane and Phillips can't pass the ball as effectively under pressure.

I hope Forshaw has been signed becuase he is seen as the midfielder who is comfortable under pressure and the idea is to partner him with Vieira to form a midfield 2 which will allow us to build a more suitable and flexible midfield platform to go back to the exciting (and most of all hugely successful) style of football from August to September. The first 35 minutes of the second half on Saturday is genuinely the first time I have felt we have matched those standards from the start of the season not necessarily because of the goals but because of the style a fast start, pressing high up the pitch, keeping the ball moving keeping the momentum by not allowing Millwall any time and space and whenever we lost the ball we didn't panic the amount of times Milwall tried to counter attack us and had several 4 v 3 situtations in their favour but we kept our composure (Pennington in particular) and never really looked in trouble. Ultimately we ran out of energy and Christiansen made another tactical error with 10 minutes to go, however, the signs were there of what this team can achieve with a 3 at the back 3-4-2-1/3-5-2 could seriously be a great option for us. I think we need to sign another striker and we need to recall Lewie Coyle though if 3-4-2-1 is going to be effective.

The bottom line is though a continuation of: the shite performances where we lack any sort of tempo, control in the middle, complete lack of organisation without the ball/defensively, Christiansen making poor tactical decisions and it's only a matter of time until Christiansen gets sacked tbh. I also think Christiansen needs to change his man management style as well, this idea of not speaking to the players after games is just never going to work, it might work if your Pep Guardiola but not if your Thomas Christiansen as he's got nowhere near enough of a presence in football management to even consider that kind of management style. He needs to be more ruthless as well be willing to drop the likes of Cooper and Phillips, in fact if he wants to send out a real statement he would take the armband off Cooper, if he doesn't sort out this side of his management he's just going to lose the dressing room completely, also think at times he put his own pride ahead of the success of the team (playing Shaughnessy ahead of Klich in the midfield 4 times losing 3 of those games would be an example of this). I don't like how we approach the big games either that's something I didn't like even when we were doing well. Our record against the top 6 is poor.

There is a 10 day gap between Millwall and the Hull game, evidence of lessons being learned plus an improvement performance and result wise in that Hull game is an absolute must. The target for this season has to be the top 6 (the league is average really outside of the likes of Wolves, Villa, Boro and Fulham). Christiansen has got one more chance to get us back on track as far as i'm concerned, I still back him but if he can't get a reaction from the team (with 10 days to prepare) for a game against a Hull side that has won once in the last three months then it's virtually impossible to have any confidence in Christiansen tbh. The next game is vital and season defining as far as i'm concerned.
Glad you see what I'm seeing Oscar & highly critical of Christiansen's methods which won't go down well with some on here. TC & his coaches plus the whole managerial team including Radz & Orta need to shape themselves if they are expecting a top six place this season. Personally I can't see it !

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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by Crude » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pm

TC needs the chance to finish the season with us. Who, reasonably, would we get to replace him that could do better? Another recycled prem/championship manager who knows the league? In TC We Trust.
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Re: Should he GO or Should he STAY ?

Post by fred » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:22 am

Oscar wrote:I would give Christiansen a bit more time, however, things have got to improve drastically.

11 defeats in 21 games cannot just be written off as a "blip" or a "loss of form" that's almost half a season of us being in absolutely woeful form.

I can't really work out what Christiansen is trying to achieve atm we have absolutely no philosophy or style of play really atm.

During those first 10 games or so we played the best football I have ever seen from a Leeds side at this level, we would keep the ball on the ground and moving at all times stopping teams getting back into their defensive shape (if anyone stopped to put their foot on the ball or took one too many touches slowing us down Christiansen used to go absolutely crazy as it was all about keeping the momentum). When we went forward we were almost a 2-4-3-1 as only Jansson and Cooper would stay back, teams just couldn't defend against us because of the amount of players we commited forward (look back at some of our goals earlier in the season and you will see what I mean look at how high up the pitch the likes of Phillips,O'Kane and Ayling are). We pressed so high up the pitch that when teams tried to play out the back we forced them to kick it long and one of O'Kane/Phillips (who were excellent at the start of the season) would win the second ball and start the attack again or if they couldn't win it back we would get back into our defensive shape quickly. The counter attacking was excellent as well. The key to that start was the midfield 2 of: O'Kane and KP, and the only times we looked uncomfortable during those first 10 games in the league and cup was when teams put pressure on Phillips/O'Kane or played a 3 in midfield like Preston, Fulham and Millwall (they went with a 4-4-2 but they put focused all of their attention on O'Kane and Phillips). However, those 3 games I highlighted seem to have become a tactical reference/benchmark for any team playing us, press/overcrowd their two central midfielders and we will see a lot more of the ball plus the key players like: Saiz, Hernandez and Alioski will see less of the ball and when they do they won't get the ball where they want it as O'Kane and Phillips can't pass the ball as effectively under pressure.
I think you are seeing those first 7 games with rose tinted glasses. We were never that dominant in a game, that we couldn`t have lost some of them. Against Sunderland we weren`t that good at all for example. And if my memory is right we played a lot of counter attacking football too...that the real reason why we won 5 of the first 7.
But whatever, the system didn`t work against stronger teams for whatever reasons.
We are simply not good enough. Need 3-4 quality players coming in.

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