Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:37 pm
Or narrowly beating 21st placed Bolton?
Not beating relegated Sunderland at home?
Sunderland were not relegated when we played them so still were fighting (You've never seen that before?) Barnsley was a comfortable win
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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:47 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:39 pm
Not my fault mate. Read again: it is very, very obvious what my point is. A bit of a red herring my Impression.

But being a patient fan: the whole talk what Heck is worth and if he is better or worse than TC is based on arguments which are based mostly not on wrong and not sufficient facts and/or stats interpreted in one owns favour (that is the `argument` one tries to evaluate.)

And this point I have reasoned for with quite a few examples demonstrating the above mentioned flaws.
Right.

I dont think they are as the stats which Hecky can be judged on are clear and fair.

He can be judged on his Championship record.
He can be judged on the opinions of the Barnsley fans who know him better then us.
He can be judged against ever other Leeds manager in history in basic terms, wins and losses and points per game.
He can be judged on the quality of squad he build based on cash spent in comparison to the other clubs in the league.

And stats are quite simple.
Under none of 13 games under TC did we gain less points then under Hecky.
Under no 5 games under TC did Weidwald concede more goals then he did under Hecky.
Against the same opponents as Hecky TC has gained more points and scored more goals and conceded less.

How is that not clear?
Last edited by Cjay on Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:48 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Sunderland were not relegated when we played them so still were fighting (You've never seen that before?) Barnsley was a comfortable win
My Point. Facts that are wrong and/or interpretations of stats that are wrong or dubious because not based on all the relevant stats and the correct Interpretation of such.
And very seldom the situation is such, that the facts and stats (and their Interpretation) imply only a single possible conclusion.

Guys, football is a rocket science! :)

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Sunderland were not relegated when we played them so still were fighting (You've never seen that before?) Barnsley was a comfortable win
Thats a flimsy excuse.

A side doesnt become better the closer they get to relegation, its a cliche, there still as poor as they were all season hence why there near relegation.

Barnsley wasnt a comfortable win.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:02 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats a flimsy excuse.

A side doesnt become better the closer they get to relegation, its a cliche, there still as poor as they were all season hence why there near relegation.

Barnsley wasnt a comfortable win.
Fred talks in riddles and faaip thinks every decision the club makes is the correct one, so it's pointless arguing with them.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 pm

Clive wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:02 pm
Fred talks in riddles and faaip thinks every decision the club makes is the correct one, so it's pointless arguing with them.
Just prefer simple facts myself.

Sides down the bottom are there because there not good sides.

Sides above them should expect to beat them especially at home.

If you don't then there's a problem.

Whats complicated about that?

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:13 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 pm
Just prefer simple facts myself.

Sides down the bottom are there because there not good sides.

Sides above them should expect to beat them especially at home.

If you don't then there's a problem.

Whats complicated about that?
We hired a manager in a relegation battle who brought that form with him and killed a season that should still be alive. It's obvious and one of the worst decisions of all time, but some people won't have it no matter what and will twist anything to make excuses for him.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats a flimsy excuse.

A side doesnt become better the closer they get to relegation, its a cliche, there still as poor as they were all season hence why there near relegation.

Barnsley wasnt a comfortable win.

I'm not making excuses ...don't have to
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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats a flimsy excuse.

A side doesnt become better the closer they get to relegation, its a cliche, there still as poor as they were all season hence why there near relegation.

Barnsley wasnt a comfortable win.
I didn't say that I said they were fighting
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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:52 pm

Are folks really saying they've never seen teams fighting relegation lift themselves ...I'm the only one ? ....
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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:56 pm

Clive wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:13 pm
We hired a manager in a relegation battle who brought that form with him and killed a season that should still be alive. It's obvious and one of the worst decisions of all time, but some people won't have it no matter what and will twist anything to make excuses for him.
A good example what I mean when I say that most opinions are based on a) wrong or insufficient facts and stats and their interpretation (correct interpreted stats could be called facts), b) the self-perception as a person with superior knowledge, claiming that it must be obvious for everyone.

But as many don`t see it as being quite soo `obvious`, such not obedient people must have a mind-set explaining their embarassing misjudgement. This can be explained by being slightly retarded in regard to ones capability to form a valid opinion and/or being evil in some way...a troll, a Leeds hater, twisted minded. (`To twist anything` combines these two aspects very nicely.)
-Such people will never answer to valid or plausable arguments against their cause (it`s more a matter of `their cause` than anything else.)
- They know only one criteria: you are 100% with me (respect my opinion!) or against me.
- There is no place for probabilities, doubts, modesty in regard to their capability to know what is true what wrong.
- If their predictions are proved to be wrong, they will never admit to such. They alsways use strategies of immunizising their opinions.
Last edited by fred on Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:58 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm
I didn't say that I said they were fighting
Everybody is fighting for points since game 1 surely?

Sunderland been down the bottom most of the season, dont imagine they been coasting till the last few games.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:00 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:56 pm
A good example what I mean when I say that most opinions are based on a) wrong or insufficient facts and stats and their interpretation (correct interpreted stats could be called facts), b) the self-perception as a person with superior knowledge, claiming that it must be obvious for everyone.

But as many don`t see it as being quite soo `obvious`, such not obedient people must have a mind-set explaining their embarassing misjudgement. This can be explained by being slightly retarded in regard to ones capability to form a valid opinion and/or being evil in some way...a troll, a Leeds hater, twisted minded. (`To twist anything` combines these two aspects very nicely.)
-Such people will never answer to valid or plausable arguments against their cause (it`s more a matter of `their cause` than anything else.)
- They know only one criteria: you are 100% with me (respect my opinion!) or against me.
- There is no place for probabilities, doubts, modesty in regard to their capability to know what is true what wrong.
- If their predictions are proved to be wrong, they will never admit to such. They alsways use strategies of immunizising their opinions.
Your one of those people who type 1000 words when 20 would do arent you? :)

Sound like a mate of mine, not a psychologist by any chance?

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:02 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:52 pm
Are folks really saying they've never seen teams fighting relegation lift themselves ...I'm the only one ? ....
Yes ive seen it your right they do lift themselves occasionally.

But then thats where a good manager motivates his players a bit more isnt it?

To overcome this additional "fight"

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:56 pm
A good example what I mean when I say that most opinions are based on a) wrong or insufficient facts and stats and their interpretation (correct interpreted stats could be called facts), b) the self-perception as a person with superior knowledge, claiming that it must be obvious for everyone.

But as many don`t see it as being quite soo `obvious`, such not obedient people must have a mind-set explaining their embarassing misjudgement. This can be explained by being slightly retarded in regard to ones capability to form a valid opinion and/or being evil in some way...a troll, a Leeds hater, twisted minded. (`To twist anything` combines these two aspects very nicely.)
-Such people will never answer to valid or plausable arguments against their cause (it`s more a matter of `their cause` than anything else.)
- They know only one criteria: you are 100% with me (respect my opinion!) or against me.
- There is no place for probabilities, doubts, modesty in regard to their capability to know what is true what wrong.
- If their predictions are proved to be wrong, they will never admit to such. They alsways use strategies of immunizising their opinions.
We've had tosspots like Heckingbottom before.

All the hallmarks are there.

He stinks of Grayson, Redfearn and McDermott.

He's not a genius who needs time, he'll probably end up managing a women's team like Redders.

Mind you, he'll probably get a women's team promoted and you'll be saying that shows we should have kept him.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:02 pm
Yes ive seen it your right they do lift themselves occasionally.

But then thats where a good manager motivates his players a bit more isnt it?

To overcome this additional "fight"
That was coming from someone who thinks Christiansen could not possibly have lifted the team out of a bad run, even though he supported him until he was sacked.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:09 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:00 pm
Your one of those people who type 1000 words when 20 would do arent you? :)

Sound like a mate of mine, not a psychologist by any chance?
You just mentioned a further point: simplifying things to an extent that the facts get warped.

No, not a psychologist. Just sceptic towards opinions claiming to be more than an opinion (and therefore not implying to be THE one and only truth.)

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Clive wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 pm
We've had tosspots like Heckingbottom before.

All the hallmarks are there.

He stinks of Grayson, Redfearn and McDermott.

He's not a genius who needs time, he'll probably end up managing a women's team like Redders.

Mind you, he'll probably get a women's team promoted and you'll be saying that shows we should have kept him.
O.k., let`s get real here. What would you consider to be a success IF Heck would be in charge for next season? Which criteria would you regard as being relevant?
Come on, stop talking, and make a real point, enabling your opinion to be judged/verified by (future) facts.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Norm » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:23 pm

Over time I've learned one immutable fact - you will never change someone's opinion.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:45 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:09 pm
You just mentioned a further point: simplifying things to an extent that the facts get warped.

No, not a psychologist. Just sceptic towards opinions claiming to be more than an opinion (and therefore not implying to be THE one and only truth.)
Football is a simple game.

Wins vs losses.
Points vs no points.

Nothing in between matters, managers are judged on there wins, they are judged on there successes and failures, they are judged against there peers and predecessors.

Thats all i have done with Hecky.

I've judged him on his wins and losses, there facts you cant warp those.

Similarly you cant warp his record at Barnsley or his record overall.

His win percentage in the Championship is 26% and his points per game is 1.1 thereabouts.

This season he has accumulated 40 points, not warped its just the truth.

The average position of teams we have beaten under Hecky is 17th.

His points per game as Leeds manager is 0.9, his win percentage is just over 20%.

The form table under Heckingbottom has us 18th during that period, the lowest this season under a similar amount of games.

Our goal difference stands at -10 with 15 scored 25 conceded. Again the worst this season under any equal match comparison.

Nothing warped or manipulated or twisted in anything I've said there, those are all facts, unquestionable and totally true.

My opinion on Hecky or any manager cant alter the facts.

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