Orta on his way

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Clive
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:06 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:53 pm
De Bock is injured ..you're kind of making an argument for Heckingbottom with that post. Unintentionally probably, but still
HOW DO YOU WORK THAT OUT?

Everything is an argument for Heckingbottom to you.

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Re: Orta on his way

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:30 pm

Not really I'll be critical when the time is right. It's not yet I would have given TC the season, thought him useless but would have given him the season. I don't like agenda and you've bought it here, so all I'm doing is redressing some needed balance. You'll notice I'm not agreeing with the masses on the players or Rad/Orta, I'm in the minority there too...I do admit I prefer Heck to TC though.

I'm also not starting loads of the same thread. I'm not starting "Heck is god" "Heck must stay" "You must all be stupid because you don't agree with me" threads nor am I using sub text and sarcasm...except maybe once or twice in the what is it 8 years I've been here, 12 on waccoe.
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by Clive » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:36 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:30 pm
Not really I'll be critical when the time is right. It's not yet I would have given TC the season, thought him useless but would have given him the season. I don't like agenda and you've bought it here, so all I'm doing is redressing some needed balance. You'll notice I'm not agreeing with the masses on the players or Rad/Orta, I'm in the minority there too...I do admit I prefer Heck to TC though.

I'm also not starting loads of the same thread. I'm not starting "Heck is god" "Heck must stay" "You must all be stupid because you don't agree with me" threads nor am I using sub text and sarcasm...except maybe once or twice in the what is it 8 years I've been here, 12 on waccoe.
Why did you want TC to have the season if he was useless?

Why do you prefer Heck to TC?

Are you giving your opinion or redressing balance? Why do you feel the need to redress balance when all the reporters and pundits advocate Heckingbottom staying?

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Re: Orta on his way

Post by danhirons » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:21 am

weasel wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:10 pm
Glad you at least named them rather than 64 who just hides behind hyperbole.

Forshaw I think it is easier to judge because he has not needed time to settle with being british and having played a lot of matches. Certainly less of a gamble type signing but the fee reflects that as it was probably more than we'd pay for a similar signing from abroad. Nevertheless a good signing fro what we have seen.

Cibicki - Certainly looks lightweight but did have a few decent matches and looked like he had a good cross. Many raving about him at the time. But he needs to toughen up which is where acclimatising to the league is essential. There looks to be a good player in there just ask PJ who rates him, and I would certainly not say he is a bad signing yet.

Sacko - Yes I would agree he is a bad signing although As he arrived before Orta you have to wonder if it was a) an agreed deal and we couldn't get out of it (remember Cellino used to insist on clauses to enable him to convert the loan to a buy and it may have already been triggered or b) perhaps TC saw some potential in hi and suggested to Orta to sign him. As such maybe not an Orta signing as such - although that is me just speculating. However for whatever reasons a bad signing as 2 years on he has made no progress.

FW - Yes overall a bad signing although like I have mentioned about Man City and Guardiola a ball playing keeper was essential to the style of play. City got it wrong first time and we did too.

Anita - Hard to be overly critical as he has played out of position and on the wrong side - but hey as free signings go we have made a lot worse in the past - Billy Paynter etc

DeBock - Crikey yes he had 2 or 3 bad games but he went from not playing at his former club to suddenly thrust into the team and having to get used to a different style and tempo of football. Had a couple of decent games too so far too early to write him off yet. Let's see what he is like with a full pre-season with the team.

Klich - Hard to know as TC obviously didn't rate him. According to a lot of the 'experts' on here he is a brilliant player though. Might yet be a player for us next season.

Lonerghan - well what do you really expect us to get for a free signing that is signed to be a substitute? Hardly like we were signing the new DeGea. We have had worse back up keepers, Rabchucka for example

CBJ - Not a permanent signing so the fact he was awful for us to me makes it a good decision that we didn't actually sign him on a transfer - same goes for Lasogga and Pennington probably have not done enough to justify us trying to make the deals permanent.

Ekuban & Roberts - You can hardly say they are bad signings especially Roberts. Ekuban has had 2 bad injuries to contend with so judge him after he has had a good run of games - a good preseason with less pressure could see him get his confidence back. Roberts could be anything. Certainly wouldn't say either is a bad signing.

Grot - Like I have mentioned before he is 19 and playing in a strange league etc. Give the lad time and he could be amazing. Ronaldo took 2 or 3 seasons to really start to show his promise for Man Utd.

All in all it is more a case of players not yet proven either way than being absolutely awful signings.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion. I just think in three seasons or so we will look back and most of these players won't be playing at this level still.

On a separate note I feel a bit sorry for Anita. No idea why he hasn't been given a chance at cdm if he played there before in better teams!

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Re: Orta on his way

Post by weasel » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:28 am

danhirons wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:21 am
Fair enough. I respect your opinion. I just think in three seasons or so we will look back and most of these players won't be playing at this level still.
If PH is still in charge they definitely won't be playing at this level, it will be league 1 Leeds.

Seriously though you may be right but until they are given a bit more time I would be reluctant to write mot of them off. If one or two of them make it then overall it would swing the pendulum enough to say Orta did a decent job with recruitment. Short term successes haven't been great but to buy a player who will slot straight into the first team costs a lot more money, Forshaw being a good example in comparison to say Klich. Forshaw is championship experienced and cost £3m to £4.5m whereas a similar type player Klich, a full international but with no prior championship experience was £1m.

The long term success though for me is what I will judge Orta on. The u18s and u23 look to be in good shape and whilst BPF, O'Connor and Pearce may not quite be good enough to be first team regulars they don't look too far away and the hope would be the 2nd and 3rd waves of talent to come through will be even better
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by faaip » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:38 am

Clive wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:36 pm
Why did you want TC to have the season if he was useless?

Why do you prefer Heck to TC?

Are you giving your opinion or redressing balance? Why do you feel the need to redress balance when all the reporters and pundits advocate Heckingbottom staying?
1. - Because I cannot predict the future and he could have improved, I wasn't a fan of signing a Cyprus league manager to start with though

2 - Now I'm repeating myself, he seems a better coach to me but both look suspect as managers. Heck at least would make a good coach imo.

3 - I'm not interested in journalists opinions, they're mostly bandwagoners anyway, I'm redressing the balance here. Go count the positive Heck threads ...
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by Genghers » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:38 am

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:53 pm
De Bock is injured ..you're kind of making an argument for Heckingbottom with that post. Unintentionally probably, but still
My summation of the players would be exactly the same if TC were still here tbf (unless some of their form had had a massive upturn).

I want to see a manager stay a season (from pre-season to the end) and I really thought that TC would be that man after the first half of a season we had. I wouldn't have got rid when we did, and I certainly wouldn't have replaced him with Heckingbottom who is clearly no upgrade.

Other than Hock, I've been willing to give all of our managers time (even Milanic!), but we've gone backwards under Heckingbottom and, although we'll never know, I really can't imagine we would have been worse off right now if TC had remained in charge.

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Re: Orta on his way

Post by faaip » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:50 am

The only way we've gone backwards under Heck is in injury. We cannot say how many points TC would have gotten from Hecks games but it's as likely it would have been less as more ...

What I see under Heck makes more sense to me than what I saw under TC.
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by faaip » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:56 am

And again I'm only comparing TC and Heck. Ask me to compare Heck and Wilkinson and it's a different story. Grayson/Heck would be too, Grayson was my not my favourite person but he was a much better manager FOR US AT THIS POINT than Heck appears to be

Rowatt becomes available tomorrow and I'll escort Heck to his car myself
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Re: Orta on his way

Post by Clive » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:36 pm

faaip wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:38 am
1. - Because I cannot predict the future and he could have improved, I wasn't a fan of signing a Cyprus league manager to start with though

2 - Now I'm repeating myself, he seems a better coach to me but both look suspect as managers. Heck at least would make a good coach imo.

3 - I'm not interested in journalists opinions, they're mostly bandwagoners anyway, I'm redressing the balance here. Go count the positive Heck threads ...
He was a winner in Cyprus. Why does it matter that he came from Cyprus? Don Revie and David O'Leary had never managed before they got the Leeds job.

Why does he seem a good coach?

A balanced argument has to be based on facts, you can't make up positives to counter negatives for the sake of it.

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