To Panic Or Not To Panic

For everything Leeds United related and everything not - Have your say... the Marching on Together way!
Forum rules
Please be sure you are acquainted with the forum rules outlined within our FAQs.

Help support the site by using our Amazon Affiliate link when making any purchases from Amazon.
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28187
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Cjay »

Time to accept that Leeds United FC isnt a draw anymore.

Why would we be?

Players today, most will know us as a 2nd tier or 3rd tier team, they dont care what happened 20 30 40 50 years ago.

Marcelo Bielsa may be a Footballing legend, his name carries weight in Spain and South America, but in England not so much.

Silly as it sounds Frank Lampard is more of a draw, Derby County are more of a draw, they have finished higher then us for years.

Players today probably idolised Frank, Chelsea and England star etc .

Marcelo Bielsa, not so much to the average player.

Not angry if Josefzoon goes to them, just time as fans we woke up and realised.

People angry at Vydra because he favours a Prem move and 50k a week.

Why should he make a backwards step to us for no extra reward?

Bit of a sense of entitlement in our fanbase.

Sad as it is, we been to average for to long for players to care what Don Revie did, what Wilko did, even the Champions League days is creeping up on 20 years ago.

And its only going to get worse, as years go by the dimming appeal of LUFC will get even dimmer until one day we really are seen as just onw of the pack. :(
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
User avatar
The Subhuman
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 55501
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by The Subhuman »

Think I need to get the L out of here
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 127690
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by 1964white »

faaip wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:07 pm Think I need to get the L out of here
Y
danhirons
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3476
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by danhirons »

Cjay wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:01 pm Time to accept that Leeds United FC isnt a draw anymore.

Why would we be?

Players today, most will know us as a 2nd tier or 3rd tier team, they dont care what happened 20 30 40 50 years ago.

Marcelo Bielsa may be a Footballing legend, his name carries weight in Spain and South America, but in England not so much.

Silly as it sounds Frank Lampard is more of a draw, Derby County are more of a draw, they have finished higher then us for years.

Players today probably idolised Frank, Chelsea and England star etc .

Marcelo Bielsa, not so much to the average player.

Not angry if Josefzoon goes to them, just time as fans we woke up and realised.

People angry at Vydra because he favours a Prem move and 50k a week.

Why should he make a backwards step to us for no extra reward?

Bit of a sense of entitlement in our fanbase.

Sad as it is, we been to average for to long for players to care what Don Revie did, what Wilko did, even the Champions League days is creeping up on 20 years ago.

And its only going to get worse, as years go by the dimming appeal of LUFC will get even dimmer until one day we really are seen as just onw of the pack. :(
course we're just one of the pack - so many "big name" teams down in the championship and league one these days. Leeds haven't exactly had stability over the last few seasons and so I can see why a player might go elsewhere. As you said as well Derby have consistently finished above us recently.
User avatar
The Subhuman
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 55501
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by The Subhuman »

1964white wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 pmY
Was in response to Norms post ...about getting the L right. CJay ruined the flo
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
User avatar
The Subhuman
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 55501
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by The Subhuman »

Cjay wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:01 pm Time to accept that Leeds United FC isnt a draw anymore.

Why would we be?

Players today, most will know us as a 2nd tier or 3rd tier team, they dont care what happened 20 30 40 50 years ago.

Marcelo Bielsa may be a Footballing legend, his name carries weight in Spain and South America, but in England not so much.

Silly as it sounds Frank Lampard is more of a draw, Derby County are more of a draw, they have finished higher then us for years.

Players today probably idolised Frank, Chelsea and England star etc .

Marcelo Bielsa, not so much to the average player.

Not angry if Josefzoon goes to them, just time as fans we woke up and realised.

People angry at Vydra because he favours a Prem move and 50k a week.

Why should he make a backwards step to us for no extra reward?

Bit of a sense of entitlement in our fanbase.

Sad as it is, we been to average for to long for players to care what Don Revie did, what Wilko did, even the Champions League days is creeping up on 20 years ago.

And its only going to get worse, as years go by the dimming appeal of LUFC will get even dimmer until one day we really are seen as just onw of the pack. :(

welcome to where most of the insightful have been since 2006, glad you could join us. Once you realise that supporting the team gets more enjoyable.
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 127690
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by 1964white »

faaip wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 pm Was in response to Norms post ...about getting the L right. CJay ruined the flo
O :)
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28187
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Cjay »

faaip wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:20 pm welcome to where most of the insightful have been since 2006, glad you could join us. Once you realise that supporting the team gets more enjoyable.
The insightful must be the few, reading majority of comments players should be lining up to join us because we are famous 8-)
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28187
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Cjay »

faaip wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 pm Was in response to Norms post ...about getting the L right. CJay ruined the flo
Jo
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Norm
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6935
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 2:51 am
Location: SW Missouri USA

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Norm »

Cjay wrote: ↑

Jo
Blow

!!!
User avatar
lufc1304
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 12618
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:40 pm
Twitter: @DrGonzo2411
Location: Lisburn, N.I

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by lufc1304 »

faaip wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:20 pm welcome to where most of the insightful have been since 2006, glad you could join us. Once you realise that supporting the team gets more enjoyable.
This :tup:

We might have the biggest fan base outside of the Premiership, but we have been decidedly second rate on the pitch and, more importantly, in the boardroom, for well over a decade now. The expectations of a section of our fans is bordering on the ridiculous. We are only now, thanks to tough decisions Cellino took and AR's business savvy, sailing in calm financial waters. We're not now suddenly going to start paying £50k a week to players. Only when we are back up there consistently knocking at the door of the Prem will players consider us a draw, and choose us over another club offering similar or slightly better money. As it is, we're just another championship club that used to be good. Of course I want that to change, but only in a sustainable way, not gamble the house in the hope a couple of (probably) over-hyped players take us to the promised land.
"When the going gets weird, the weird get professional!" Hunter S Thompson
User avatar
Azkal
Site Contributor
Site Contributor
Posts: 4170
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:15 am

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Azkal »

lufc1304 wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:01 am This :tup:

We might have the biggest fan base outside of the Premiership, but we have been decidedly second rate on the pitch and, more importantly, in the boardroom, for well over a decade now. The expectations of a section of our fans is bordering on the ridiculous. We are only now, thanks to tough decisions Cellino took and AR's business savvy, sailing in calm financial waters. We're not now suddenly going to start paying £50k a week to players. Only when we are back up there consistently knocking at the door of the Prem will players consider us a draw, and choose us over another club offering similar or slightly better money. As it is, we're just another championship club that used to be good. Of course I want that to change, but only in a sustainable way, not gamble the house in the hope a couple of (probably) over-hyped players take us to the promised land.
This :tup:
User avatar
hector
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11683
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:57 am
Location: Salisbury

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by hector »

lufc1304 wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:01 am This :tup:

We might have the biggest fan base outside of the Premiership, but we have been decidedly second rate on the pitch and, more importantly, in the boardroom, for well over a decade now. The expectations of a section of our fans is bordering on the ridiculous. We are only now, thanks to tough decisions Cellino took and AR's business savvy, sailing in calm financial waters. We're not now suddenly going to start paying £50k a week to players. Only when we are back up there consistently knocking at the door of the Prem will players consider us a draw, and choose us over another club offering similar or slightly better money. As it is, we're just another championship club that used to be good. Of course I want that to change, but only in a sustainable way, not gamble the house in the hope a couple of (probably) over-hyped players take us to the promised land.
Ditto :tup:
Song machine is coming down....
And we're gonna have a party Uhuhu
Brader
First Team
First Team
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:29 am

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Brader »

To play devils advocate- THe last time our fanbase was this childish and impatient was....... a month ago? when we took 'forever' to tie up bielsa. Maybe theres a few things what noones aware of that will make us all sit up and take note.
User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 14025
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Within a mile of Yorkshire

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by weasel »

It is an excellent point that a month or so ago we were all fearing the worst as the Bielsa talks dragged on for ages. Whilst it is very disappointing that we haven't yet made the signings I think we do just need to be patient and wait until the window shuts before really panicking.
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28187
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Cjay »

A Quick Chat with Leeds United

Lots of fans have mentioned on Social Media and to me directly via Tweets and DMs that they find the Club too quiet at the moment. I had chance this evening to have a chat with someone at the Club whose word I respect and, if anyone is interested, this essay contains some of what we discussed.

I won’t name who I have spoken to as this was an informal chat and not an official Club communication. I will say that I contacted the person concerned out of the blue and I asked the questions. If anyone reading this feels they do not want to read from an unknown source please stop reading now, I fully understand that point of view.

Last Season
I asked about the accounts for last season which will not be published at Companies House until next March. I don’t think it benefits this essay for me to try and detail the specific data but I did suggest that the Club had not invested last season.

With the information in the accounts it is clear that the Club has invested and invested many 10s of millions of pounds. Compared to Cellino’s last season, Radrizzani’s first season has seen a marked increase in commercial and gate revenue of around £8m, Radrizzani himself has loaned and then moved to equity another £8m and cash funds from the sale of Wood, Taylor and Bridcutt flowed into the Club last season. All these funds have been reinvested back into the Club and spent on players and running the Club.

Where did this money go? 
Lots of little places is how I could best put it.

Under Cellino the Club were losing money and Cellino used player sales’ money to cover those losses. Radirzzani has had to cover those losses again last season from the money I mentioned above. Radrizzani has also reversed some of Cellino’s cost savings, the number of staff at the Club has risen allowing the commercial revenue to increase and wages for players, staff, coaches and scouts has risen, even the smaller cost savings from Cellino, such as having no contract cleaners at Thorp Arch (which notably led to illness amongst the players), have been reversed and they all add up to a considerable sum. And that’s before we get to talking about the costs of having scouts watching players around Europe and beyond!!!

Suffice it to say, I can see how extra cash has flowed into the Club under Radrizzani and I can also see how it has stayed within the Club and been spent. Nothing untoward. No bonus for Radrizzani or Eleven Sports or anything like that, in fact the opposite – Radrizzani has had to put his own money into the Club.

Money well spent? 
This is a difficult question to ask someone at the Club but, just as other people have said to me before, there was no hiding and a frank admission that money was wasted on the wrong players, players who were too young to have the financial impact the Club wanted or didn’t bring the ability as expected and needed for the Championship.

Those mistakes are being rectified by moving on players the Club feels will not bring immediate benefit so as to reduce the wage bill and perhaps bring in some fees. It was admitted that this is proving difficult with a transfer market that is not as active at the levels that will take these players (it wasn’t said but I suspect trying to move on players we deem failures will always be hard).

So that’s last season
I’ve had similar conversations with other members of the Club and this evening has confirmed a lot of what I’d been told: admission that last season’s plan failed but confirmation that the Club invested and invested a lot of money in that failure.

Frankly, from my point of view, now that I’ve had this confirmed again I’m happy to put this angle to bed.

But last season isn’t important
Yes, I did get round to asking about this summer and next season.

49ers
The 49ers money has gone into the club recently along with money still to be received from player sales – there has been no delay or hiccup with the 49ers money as some fans have suggested to me. Revenue is expected to increase again next season (if Season Tickets and matchday ticket sales do not collapse!) and all this money will go to pay for the items I mentioned earlier (the underlying losses each season, the large wage bill, the increased costs of running the Club and Thorp Arch) and the new costs, such as Bielsa and new players.

I asked if any money was left over from last season to go towards this season and the answer was no! All money available before the 49ers investment was spent and this summer and next season will be funded by the 49ers plus normal revenues including the expected revenue increases due to better commercial activity and also player sales money received in stage payments – Radrizzani will need to make up any shortfall in cash during the summer and season from his own pocket.

Vydra
Ok, so if there’s money available but it is not loads of money then the rumours about Vydra must have been false?
It seems that is not the case – the Vydra rumour was correct and the Club are willing to make an exception in his case. This was apparently an exception for Vydra alone and not a general switch for the Club to bring in half a dozen players on large wages.

Was a deal ever agreed as Phil Hay reported? 
Yes, apparently a deal was done with Vydra and his agent with everything agreed before Derby finally accepted Leeds’ offer for him.
Just as Phil reported, as soon as Derby agreed the fee Leeds expected to just complete a formality and announce him at the start of this week just gone. Unfortunately his agent then asked for more money, a lot more money.

I’m told Radrizzani “doesn’t do business that way” and the deal fell apart. I’ve got to say, if Radz doesn’t do business that way I’d support him to the hilt, no self-respecting businessman does!

Ok, so that’s the Vydra story talked about, what about others? 
Yes, there are other targets, players Bielsa would like to have.

Unfortunately, not all of those players are being released by their current clubs – this was something I’d not thought about before – and for some targets the price wanted by their current club is too high. I couldn’t get a reveal on who those targets are unfortunately.

So nothing is happening now? 
It appears that the Club are focussed on, and have high hopes for, three players that Bielsa has targeted.

I asked for clarification and that is three players in three positions and it is all agreed with Bielsa.

I was reminded that it doesn’t mean the Club will definitely manage to swing those deals but a major effort is going into them right now.

Filler players or better? 
Those three players being focussed on are all high quality, was the reply. I know such a description is subjective but without knowing their names I could ask no further.

Is Bielsa happy? 
A lot of fans are worried Bielsa will walk so that was a natural question. I was assured that Bielsa has shown no sign of unhappiness or disquiet and is totally aligned with the Club.

The players being pursued are Bielsa’s chosen players (ie not players Orta has decided we should have).

How does the Club view the team this season? 
I don’t think I expected an answer saying the Club thought that the team was promotion ready and I think I would have laughed if it had been said.

The best answer I got was that the Club felt the team would be “competitive this season”. As it stands now? “We have a young team and we know we need to include two or three new players” to be as competitive as we want to be.

Summary
All in all, I felt I’d had a good conversation. No excuses about other teams having parachute payments, no hiding that last season was poor, no hiding that a lot of money was spent last year for little gain.

We talked in business terms, the correct way to handle negotiations, having business principles, working hard behind the scenes, keeping cards close to the chest, ensuring that the Club doesn’t lose too much money, ensuring that any money lost could be replaced by owner investment, being cautious in predictions and not over-promising.

My contact cannot guarantee that the Club will succeed in all the plans but was able to give me comfort that the Club had a plan and was not drifting aimlessly.

Addendum
After last night’s awful stream that I paid to watch on LUTV I made sure to mention this too. I believe the message will reach the right people. Whether anything can be done about it yet is another matter but at least I got that off my chest!

Mike Thornton 20th July 2018
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
User avatar
The Subhuman
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 55501
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by The Subhuman »

Basically what I thought was happening is happening. I think Rads is doing everything he can for the teams best interests. Everything else is common sense.

What we have is the ground back
What we have is a manager most fans were ecstatic to get
What we have is a club headed to an even keel and being well run
What we have is a lot of promising young players thanks to Victor Orta
What we have should be the best manager imaginable to bring the best out of these players
What we have is a fairly solid first team with some very good players

What we need is a striker and maybe a centre back/sweeper
What we need is more patience from the fans
What we need is a few breaks this season in games
What we need is time

All what we've achieved has happened in just one year
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
danhirons
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3476
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by danhirons »

Thanks Cjay great post. Good to know the club realise that we signed a load of garbage last season and need to take a different approach this transfer market
Norm
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6935
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 2:51 am
Location: SW Missouri USA

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Norm »

Thanks Cjay - that confirms my underlying opinion that we have a good owner, who is not salting excess money away in his other interests and who is really a breath of fresh air for the pretty honourable way in which he is conducting business.
We have still been paying for previous owners' neglect and mistakes. Cellino must truly have been under the cosh and even Radz has caught the tail end of it.
To compound things, further (understandable) mistakes were made, anyone could see that, but he is still ploughing more of his own money into the club.
What was said about Vydra, and hinted at for others, is a symptom of modern day player and agent greed, so the news wasn't a cynical ploy to raise season ticket sales after all.

The upside is there may still be 3 new players in prospect if only we can keep from wetting our pants in anticipation.
Norm
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6935
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 2:51 am
Location: SW Missouri USA

Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic

Post by Norm »

I have made a copy of Cjay's excellent report , plus others' posts thereafter, purely for quick reference if need be, not for my use I might add.
No plagiarism here.
Post Reply