Just to be clear can take no credit but for posting it, all credit to Mike Thornton.
Certainly insightful.
To Panic Or Not To Panic
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Have skim read it, post my thoughts later
Just to be clear can take no credit but for posting it, all credit to Mike Thornton.
Certainly insightful.
Just to be clear can take no credit but for posting it, all credit to Mike Thornton.
Certainly insightful.
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Yup - mikes very well respected in fan circles and by Leeds alike. He’s great when it comes to accounts Time - as it’s his full time job and spends his own free time going through them and explaining what they mean
Give him a follow on Twitter @mike_j_thornton
Give him a follow on Twitter @mike_j_thornton
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Jay Roy Grot
Pawel.Cibicki
Felix Weidwald
3.5-4million wasted there (Grot may cone good) but 3 of them gone for now.
Yosuke Ideguchi
Caleb Ekuban
Another million there who it seems highly unlikely will ever be a key player.
Aapo Halme
Tyler Roberts
Neither have kicked a ball for us at any level since signing 7months ago.
3million more.
Frustrating that there is probably £10million worth of fees there that could have been put to far better use.
Its all well and good the club claiming to have learned lessons, i would love to hear from Radz and Orta, heard enough from Kinnear, he is just a spin merchant.
Feel a lot happier if Radz or even better Orta explained his logic for some of these signings.
Especially Aapo Halme and Roberts, £4milliom in fees, not a ball kicked in anger since.
Aapo Halme did an interview in March, there hasnt been a sign or a squeak about him since.
Pawel.Cibicki
Felix Weidwald
3.5-4million wasted there (Grot may cone good) but 3 of them gone for now.
Yosuke Ideguchi
Caleb Ekuban
Another million there who it seems highly unlikely will ever be a key player.
Aapo Halme
Tyler Roberts
Neither have kicked a ball for us at any level since signing 7months ago.
3million more.
Frustrating that there is probably £10million worth of fees there that could have been put to far better use.
Its all well and good the club claiming to have learned lessons, i would love to hear from Radz and Orta, heard enough from Kinnear, he is just a spin merchant.
Feel a lot happier if Radz or even better Orta explained his logic for some of these signings.
Especially Aapo Halme and Roberts, £4milliom in fees, not a ball kicked in anger since.
Aapo Halme did an interview in March, there hasnt been a sign or a squeak about him since.
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Roberts and Halme have both been injured, so can't really judge those as they were always forward thinking signings. Frustrating that we managed to sign two injured players last season though (Forshaw and Roberts) - I thought pre-contract medicals were there to stop that?
The other 5... You're potentially right there. A lot of young players who did well in their respective leagues who, other than Ideguchi, were signed with the intent to make an impact straight away. Ekuban looked okay but got injured and was never troubling the first team after that. Cibicki had a couple of alright cameos. Weidwald could develop into a good keeper, but we need someone better in the immediate future.
Glad we kept Grot. He's the sort of striker who could be great in the English leagues, he just needs to get game time. Interesting to see how his loan pans out.
The other 5... You're potentially right there. A lot of young players who did well in their respective leagues who, other than Ideguchi, were signed with the intent to make an impact straight away. Ekuban looked okay but got injured and was never troubling the first team after that. Cibicki had a couple of alright cameos. Weidwald could develop into a good keeper, but we need someone better in the immediate future.
Glad we kept Grot. He's the sort of striker who could be great in the English leagues, he just needs to get game time. Interesting to see how his loan pans out.
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
So my little view on Mike Thorntons piece.
1)On the first bit down to the bit about moving on the wrong players.
Its good to see the money being reinvested back into the club, into the infrastructure and things, i am pleased Radz has invested some of his own money, at the same time though that is what I'd expect from an owner.
The admission that the signings were not of the required quality is both comforting and worrying in equal measure. As mentioned in the article the scouting network is costing quite a sum and Victor Orta as Head of it is also im assuming costing a fair old wage, the cost of Victor and the entire network probably runs into the millions of pounds a year, yet by the clubs admission it failed last year. It was a very poor window and as ive mentioned before, being kind, it has cost us probably the best part of £10-15million in fees and wages to sign these players the club now recognise were not good enough.
So i ask who is being held accountable for a substantial waste of funds? At present with no restructuring of the recruitment process that we know of, nobody, same people as last season are running the show now.
2) The 49ers bit.
Again quite worrying as its an admission that all money from last season was spent, the only money we have is what we can generate and what the 49ers invest. Radz will make up the shortfall but that again is the bare minimum, that is the club living within its means but seemingly unwilling or unable to go any further, frustrating but understandable, however very frustrating as a fan to once again be living hand to mouth while other clubs push the boat out.
3)Vydra
I find this a bit odd, we clearly are not awash with money, far from it. Why were the club willing to push the boat out but only for Vydra? I would be delighted with Vydra but why is this a one player thing? The greatest of respect this is Matej Vydra, not Lionel Messi. There are surely other player of similar quality out there, why are we not willing to push the boat out for one of those?
On the sudden increase in wages while it seems ludicrous what he wanted i dont feel it was and simply maybe he and his agent thought "wait, i could stay here on a decent wage and have a good crack at going up with Derby, a side who are consistently in and around the playoffs and seemingly are backing the boss or go to a club who are never really around the playoffs and have to move my family away from where there settled and only earn a few grand more, thats madness, i want more money". If we take pur rose tinted Leeds glasses off, greedy, perhaps but not unreasonable.
Also if Vydra was the only exception how did they expect to sign Hernandez? A man who last summer wanted 70k a week off Aston Villa and who logically would demand a substantial signing on fee with his huge wages? Was Hernandez just spin?
4) Targets other then Vydra.
The players not being released does make me think we hoped the Bielsa factor would get us some of the top lads from City or Spurs and we have found out actually thats a no go for now, and the prices being to high suggests a naivety regarding the domestic market (as we are apparently looking there).
5) the 3 targets Bielsas not Ortas.
Glad to see that Marcelo Bielsa is being given the lead on this, appointing such a respected coach and not allowing him to pick his targets would be madness, very happy to hear this.
However this ties in with what Phil Hay said, 3 targets, a striker a winger and a left back. If that is the case and the club (Bielsa included in this) dont think we need at least 1 top class cb then i can already see a major flaw and think this is something that will derail our season and any chance of promotion. A cb, probably 2 if we go 3 at the back is an absolute must.
It was refreshing to hear some insight, i do wonder where Mike gets his information, read some of his stuff before, its always insightful and well informed seemingly. Radz himself has acknowledged Mikes work in the past, the cynic in me wonders if the club drip feed him bits to fit there agenda.
There were some encouraging bits, acknowledgement of the poor recruitment last season, the bit about Bielsa being given the lead on recruitment.
However where does that leave Orta? Are these Orta / scout finds that Orta has shown Bielsa for his approval or are these Bielsa off his own work?
If they are the former then thats great, Orta probably does need someone to say "No Victor" on occasion, something i suspect Hecky were he here wouldn't have been able to.
Some disappointing stuff as a fan, clearly Radz will only invest the bare minimum he needs to and he either lacks the means or the inclination to invest more.
While that is living within our means, it does make building season by season impossible as by its nature you need to sell to buy. AS the club recognised they spent poorly last summer therefore we have very few saleable assets worth much and therefore to keep funding we will in all likelihood have to lose a key player every summer in order to fund more signings.
The 3 signings is a concern as i dont feel that's enough imo, nagging in the back of my mind is the positions Phil said and cb wasnt one of them, concerned the club have a blind spot to a clear and obvious deficiency in our squad.
Overall it confirmed the thinking that we wont be going for it particularly, but also the club recognises its own mistakes and recognises they do have a huge potential asset in Bielsa and are allowing him to use his own talents to do his job best he can under the circumstances which are pretty difficult with a limited squad hampered by previous bad recruitment and a lack of substantial means in comparison to most of our rivals.
1)On the first bit down to the bit about moving on the wrong players.
Its good to see the money being reinvested back into the club, into the infrastructure and things, i am pleased Radz has invested some of his own money, at the same time though that is what I'd expect from an owner.
The admission that the signings were not of the required quality is both comforting and worrying in equal measure. As mentioned in the article the scouting network is costing quite a sum and Victor Orta as Head of it is also im assuming costing a fair old wage, the cost of Victor and the entire network probably runs into the millions of pounds a year, yet by the clubs admission it failed last year. It was a very poor window and as ive mentioned before, being kind, it has cost us probably the best part of £10-15million in fees and wages to sign these players the club now recognise were not good enough.
So i ask who is being held accountable for a substantial waste of funds? At present with no restructuring of the recruitment process that we know of, nobody, same people as last season are running the show now.
2) The 49ers bit.
Again quite worrying as its an admission that all money from last season was spent, the only money we have is what we can generate and what the 49ers invest. Radz will make up the shortfall but that again is the bare minimum, that is the club living within its means but seemingly unwilling or unable to go any further, frustrating but understandable, however very frustrating as a fan to once again be living hand to mouth while other clubs push the boat out.
3)Vydra
I find this a bit odd, we clearly are not awash with money, far from it. Why were the club willing to push the boat out but only for Vydra? I would be delighted with Vydra but why is this a one player thing? The greatest of respect this is Matej Vydra, not Lionel Messi. There are surely other player of similar quality out there, why are we not willing to push the boat out for one of those?
On the sudden increase in wages while it seems ludicrous what he wanted i dont feel it was and simply maybe he and his agent thought "wait, i could stay here on a decent wage and have a good crack at going up with Derby, a side who are consistently in and around the playoffs and seemingly are backing the boss or go to a club who are never really around the playoffs and have to move my family away from where there settled and only earn a few grand more, thats madness, i want more money". If we take pur rose tinted Leeds glasses off, greedy, perhaps but not unreasonable.
Also if Vydra was the only exception how did they expect to sign Hernandez? A man who last summer wanted 70k a week off Aston Villa and who logically would demand a substantial signing on fee with his huge wages? Was Hernandez just spin?
4) Targets other then Vydra.
The players not being released does make me think we hoped the Bielsa factor would get us some of the top lads from City or Spurs and we have found out actually thats a no go for now, and the prices being to high suggests a naivety regarding the domestic market (as we are apparently looking there).
5) the 3 targets Bielsas not Ortas.
Glad to see that Marcelo Bielsa is being given the lead on this, appointing such a respected coach and not allowing him to pick his targets would be madness, very happy to hear this.
However this ties in with what Phil Hay said, 3 targets, a striker a winger and a left back. If that is the case and the club (Bielsa included in this) dont think we need at least 1 top class cb then i can already see a major flaw and think this is something that will derail our season and any chance of promotion. A cb, probably 2 if we go 3 at the back is an absolute must.
It was refreshing to hear some insight, i do wonder where Mike gets his information, read some of his stuff before, its always insightful and well informed seemingly. Radz himself has acknowledged Mikes work in the past, the cynic in me wonders if the club drip feed him bits to fit there agenda.
There were some encouraging bits, acknowledgement of the poor recruitment last season, the bit about Bielsa being given the lead on recruitment.
However where does that leave Orta? Are these Orta / scout finds that Orta has shown Bielsa for his approval or are these Bielsa off his own work?
If they are the former then thats great, Orta probably does need someone to say "No Victor" on occasion, something i suspect Hecky were he here wouldn't have been able to.
Some disappointing stuff as a fan, clearly Radz will only invest the bare minimum he needs to and he either lacks the means or the inclination to invest more.
While that is living within our means, it does make building season by season impossible as by its nature you need to sell to buy. AS the club recognised they spent poorly last summer therefore we have very few saleable assets worth much and therefore to keep funding we will in all likelihood have to lose a key player every summer in order to fund more signings.
The 3 signings is a concern as i dont feel that's enough imo, nagging in the back of my mind is the positions Phil said and cb wasnt one of them, concerned the club have a blind spot to a clear and obvious deficiency in our squad.
Overall it confirmed the thinking that we wont be going for it particularly, but also the club recognises its own mistakes and recognises they do have a huge potential asset in Bielsa and are allowing him to use his own talents to do his job best he can under the circumstances which are pretty difficult with a limited squad hampered by previous bad recruitment and a lack of substantial means in comparison to most of our rivals.
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
We kick off in 13 days time.
If we believe the information we are being drip thread through Phil Hay and Mike Thornton then the club hope to complete 3 "quality signings", that is of course subjective.
If Phil Hay is correct we are chasing a left back, a winger and a striker.
Panic or resignation we have made a right hash of this transfer window.
Its a matter of opinion whether 3 signings is enough, not for me.
If we truly arent looking for a cb then all the clubs guff about "lessons learned" will be shown for what it is, spin.
It looks like once more we will go into a season with a paper think squad and 2 senior cbs, one of whom is hardly Mr reliable.
Maybe the 3 signings are 3 quality permanent players as we are told, winger, Striker and left back, then we will loan a cb.
Or maybe the 3 signings are Joe Bryan, Matej Vydra and erm Filip Helander and we will loan Phil Foden.
Or maybe we really think our defence is good enough.
Its all maybes and for all we know we are panicking when we dont need to.
Except Bielsa didnt play Blackman and Baker because he didnt feel they were ready.
HE LIKES HIS SIGNINGS IN A TIMELY MANNER!!!!!
If we believe the information we are being drip thread through Phil Hay and Mike Thornton then the club hope to complete 3 "quality signings", that is of course subjective.
If Phil Hay is correct we are chasing a left back, a winger and a striker.
Panic or resignation we have made a right hash of this transfer window.
Its a matter of opinion whether 3 signings is enough, not for me.
If we truly arent looking for a cb then all the clubs guff about "lessons learned" will be shown for what it is, spin.
It looks like once more we will go into a season with a paper think squad and 2 senior cbs, one of whom is hardly Mr reliable.
Maybe the 3 signings are 3 quality permanent players as we are told, winger, Striker and left back, then we will loan a cb.
Or maybe the 3 signings are Joe Bryan, Matej Vydra and erm Filip Helander and we will loan Phil Foden.
Or maybe we really think our defence is good enough.
Its all maybes and for all we know we are panicking when we dont need to.
Except Bielsa didnt play Blackman and Baker because he didnt feel they were ready.
HE LIKES HIS SIGNINGS IN A TIMELY MANNER!!!!!
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Villa's James Chester would be a decent signing, bags of championship experience & at 29yo still has time on his side. Can't see us even looking in that direction tbhCjay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:16 am We kick off in 13 days time.
If we believe the information we are being drip thread through Phil Hay and Mike Thornton then the club hope to complete 3 "quality signings", that is of course subjective.
If Phil Hay is correct we are chasing a left back, a winger and a striker.
Panic or resignation we have made a right hash of this transfer window.
Its a matter of opinion whether 3 signings is enough, not for me.
If we truly arent looking for a cb then all the clubs guff about "lessons learned" will be shown for what it is, spin.
It looks like once more we will go into a season with a paper think squad and 2 senior cbs, one of whom is hardly Mr reliable.
Maybe the 3 signings are 3 quality permanent players as we are told, winger, Striker and left back, then we will loan a cb.
Or maybe the 3 signings are Joe Bryan, Matej Vydra and erm Filip Helander and we will loan Phil Foden.
Or maybe we really think our defence is good enough.
Its all maybes and for all we know we are panicking when we dont need to.
Except Bielsa didnt play Blackman and Baker because he didnt feel they were ready.
HE LIKES HIS SIGNINGS IN A TIMELY MANNER!!!!!
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Not with Villas new owners.
He was off to Stoke apparently, probably not now.
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
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Richard
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
In regards to Phil Hay and Mike Thornton.... All they are doing is feeding the fans what has been drip fed to them from someone within the club, Kinnear for example. If Rads or Kinnear spouted it out to us direct some would claim it to be all PR yet because it comes via a reporter it is more believable?
Someone is failing at the club, either the scouts are not performing, Orta is making bad decisions on signings, someone isn’t presenting Bielsa with options he considers are not good enough or Bielsa believes his own hype and that the squad doesn’t need strengthening.
Something at LUFC is broken and Rads needs to quickly fix it.
Someone is failing at the club, either the scouts are not performing, Orta is making bad decisions on signings, someone isn’t presenting Bielsa with options he considers are not good enough or Bielsa believes his own hype and that the squad doesn’t need strengthening.
Something at LUFC is broken and Rads needs to quickly fix it.
Last edited by Richard on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Subhuman
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
New manager here a month, we've not seen us in competitive action yet, we've yet to see first team formation and starters play together and something at LUFC is broken?
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
This...
Bielzebub is highly regarded, and yet people think he has no clue.......
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
It isn't the new coach that is a problem
We haven't got a decent CB to go alongside Pontus
We haven't got a decent winger
We haven't got a big No.9 that will score us 20 goals during a season
We haven't got goals in our midfielders who in the main are all much of a muchness
We haven't got a game changer on the bench
We haven't got height in the first team however we do have a bunch of lightweights that will no doubt be bullied against seasoned championship campaigners
There lies just a few problems that haven't been addressed during the summer
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Bielsa gives hope.
But he is a famously single minded and somewhat inflexible manager who has his beliefs and thats it, full stop, it works, end of story.
His time at Lille shows that, he wasnt helped by his relationship with the Lille hierarchy but it would be wrong from what ive read to suggest he was blameless.
By the end apparently the squad had become frustrated and downright angry with Bielsa's stubborn ways and "unflinching trust in his 3-3-1-3 system which alienated and frustrated various members of the Lille squad who were constantly played out of position".
Goes back to the if we dont have the right players Bielsa's style doesnt work, same as any style i suppose.
As it stand we don't have the right players imo and Bielsa can not change that no matter what he believes.
We could be like Bilbao in his early days or Lille, touch and go.
But he is a famously single minded and somewhat inflexible manager who has his beliefs and thats it, full stop, it works, end of story.
His time at Lille shows that, he wasnt helped by his relationship with the Lille hierarchy but it would be wrong from what ive read to suggest he was blameless.
By the end apparently the squad had become frustrated and downright angry with Bielsa's stubborn ways and "unflinching trust in his 3-3-1-3 system which alienated and frustrated various members of the Lille squad who were constantly played out of position".
Goes back to the if we dont have the right players Bielsa's style doesnt work, same as any style i suppose.
As it stand we don't have the right players imo and Bielsa can not change that no matter what he believes.
We could be like Bilbao in his early days or Lille, touch and go.
Signed
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Multiple places reported we failed in signing polenta (no jokes about his name as they’re corny) - 26 year old CB ... so I’m not sure how much I’m reading into the ‘not looking for a CB’ thing.
Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Did they not all use the one place in Uruguay as a source?
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King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
King Cjay
Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
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Richard
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
Nowhere have I said the new coach hasn’t a clue. Without new signings you really are kidding yourself if you believe this team is top 6. With those who have left we are a weaker team than last season. We’re relying on Tyler and Roofe as our two strikers, one scores every 8 chances, the other will be lucky to play one in 8 games with his injury record.
We are lacking defenders and Phillips has been training at CB, I can’t see how anyone doesn’t agree we are weaker and seriously lacking.
If Bielsa believes the hype some are laying on his ability then he is seriously under estimating this division and the wheels are going to come off very quickly.
Yes something is broken. Were previous Orta signings good enough? If yes then why is Bielsa shipping half of them out? Have we seriously approached players like Vydra and Hernandez? If so why was it not blindingly obvious they would want too much, again someone not doing their homework.
Has Bielsa turned down players presented to him from our scouting network? If yes why are they not scouting the right quality/player, if no why have they not found anyone?
If we were going to pay Vydra £30k a week and give Derby £11m for him then we know that funds are available unless it really was all PR Hernandez we offered £3m signing on fee and £40k a week, with those we have released on top that’s a nice chunk of money for wages yet everyone seems too expensive Mmm
We are lacking defenders and Phillips has been training at CB, I can’t see how anyone doesn’t agree we are weaker and seriously lacking.
If Bielsa believes the hype some are laying on his ability then he is seriously under estimating this division and the wheels are going to come off very quickly.
Yes something is broken. Were previous Orta signings good enough? If yes then why is Bielsa shipping half of them out? Have we seriously approached players like Vydra and Hernandez? If so why was it not blindingly obvious they would want too much, again someone not doing their homework.
Has Bielsa turned down players presented to him from our scouting network? If yes why are they not scouting the right quality/player, if no why have they not found anyone?
If we were going to pay Vydra £30k a week and give Derby £11m for him then we know that funds are available unless it really was all PR Hernandez we offered £3m signing on fee and £40k a week, with those we have released on top that’s a nice chunk of money for wages yet everyone seems too expensive Mmm
Last edited by Richard on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Richard
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Re: To Panic Or Not To Panic
ThisCjay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:12 pm Bielsa gives hope.
But he is a famously single minded and somewhat inflexible manager who has his beliefs and thats it, full stop, it works, end of story.
His time at Lille shows that, he wasnt helped by his relationship with the Lille hierarchy but it would be wrong from what ive read to suggest he was blameless.
By the end apparently the squad had become frustrated and downright angry with Bielsa's stubborn ways and "unflinching trust in his 3-3-1-3 system which alienated and frustrated various members of the Lille squad who were constantly played out of position".
Goes back to the if we dont have the right players Bielsa's style doesnt work, same as any style i suppose.
As it stand we don't have the right players imo and Bielsa can not change that no matter what he believes.
We could be like Bilbao in his early days or Lille, touch and go.
