Marching On Together

Been thinking a bit about what i read on here and other places about our naturally hesitant attitude to spending big cash.

Given our history and given our position over the last 15 years its understandable as a fan base we are very hesitant and nervous when big money is mentioned.

But at the same time we want "proven Championship players" not "cheap foreign hopefuls".

That was a criticism fired at Orta last season, to many hopeful punts on unknowns not enough spending on a few quality Championship imports.

This season there seems to have been a bit of change, we appear to be looking more domestically, thats a good thing.

But as a fan base we do need to accept the reason we didnt do that last season is because the English transfer market is vastly inflated, player values are through the roof, you can no longer expect to get a lower league player for cheap like you could when we were the big fish looking down for bargains in the lower leagues.

The market has changed, occasionally you will get a bargain but on the whole you now will need to pay through the nose for largely unproven players.

Ademola Lookman after 2 decent seasons in League 1 and The Championship cost Everton about £8million, James Maddison cost Leicester £20million.

Scott Hogan after a decent time at Brentford, just 1 season mind you, cost Villa £10million and between 30k and 40k a week.

Jonathan Kodjia after 1 good season in England cost Villa between £12 and 15million pounds and a contract between 30-40k a week.

Reading paid £8million for SOne Aluko, a player who has never really stood out in his entire Championship career.

Cardiff paid £6million for Gary Madine, a player whose entire career has been distinctly average at every level based on 1 ok half season for Bolton.

Its not just the domestic market, clubs are paying inflated fees everywhere, Forest signed a player who may be highly rated, but has no proven record at any level for £13million pounds.

Last summer when Chris Wood went our fanbase was crying out for a Championship replacement, Nelson Oliviera, Danny Ings, Dwight Gayle etc.

When it all went wrong "thats what happens when you sign cheap foreign rubbish", this season we try to sign domestic and "oh no thats to expensive".

We cant have it both ways, if we want domestic players, especially with strikers, then we need to accept the price will be reflected by whats gone before it, Assombalonga, Kodjia, Hogan etc.

If thats a problem for us, and for the club who seem to have a problem with the prices, then we will have to accept raiding the foreign leagues hoping to find a gem who may take a season or two to get used to the league.

If we want domestic players we pay domestic prices, not saying its right but thats the way football is now.

ALAW

In my opinion, I'll preface my statement with that, there's two ways to do it. Buy your way out via a sugar daddy, Hi Wolves, or cash windfall from getting relegated (less secure as that money disappears) and taking WBA as an example they've added 140M since the final game of last season. Relegated teams probably should go all in season one to try and get back.

The other way is to build through the youth, you don't need to spend millions on good young British players if you build them yourselves. I think we were going down the latter route but maybe fan pressure may push us to over reach. We were told we had a 10M transfer kitty plus whatever we could add in sales (so sell before we buy which is never good) plus 10M from San Francisco. Some of that will have gone on paying off Heck, some more will go in releasing players and a chunk, I'd imagine. on Marcelo Biesla. We've also rented Baker from Chelsea

I'd imagine that kitty must also cover the salary of any incoming player, at least for year one.

West Brom 140M with a team with Premiership players in it already v Leeds United 20M with another season with several new and untested (by us) players. Not a particularly level playing field is it?

In theory as well having Victor Orta and the team dedicated to scouting and recruiting all over the world should make us better at being able to sign foreigners who are cheap but good enough - obviously a bit hit and miss so far and like Cjay says sometimes you have to wait a season for them to acclimatise. A lot easier to go down the Steve Evans, Neil Redfearn, Paul Heckingbottom route and simply sign players that everyone knows about as they have been playing in England but then which is better value Forshaw for £4m or Samu for £2.5m (if he gets back to his best form) or Pontus for £3m.

I do think the U23s is the key for us as we are not simply signing local lads but getting 'cheap' foreigners in that can acclimatise for a year or two before going into the first team. If 3 or 4 of Orta's cheap youth signings make the step up to the first team this season then suddenly his record in the transfer market looks a lot better.

Some fans though are far too quick to judge and too impatient for success. Yes I think we all want to see 1 or 2 marquee signings as we all know the weaknesses of the squad but until we see how the team shapes up, and until the window shuts, we will just have to be patient and hope the board gets things right and haven't underestimated the opposition and over estimated our squad.

faaip wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:25 pm West Brom 140M with a team with Premiership players in it already v Leeds United 20M with another season with several new and untested (by us) players. Not a particularly level playing field is it?

Not at all mate

weasel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:02 pm In theory as well having Victor Orta and the team dedicated to scouting and recruiting all over the world should make us better at being able to sign foreigners who are cheap but good enough - obviously a bit hit and miss so far and like Cjay says sometimes you have to wait a season for them to acclimatise. A lot easier to go down the Steve Evans, Neil Redfearn, Paul Heckingbottom route and simply sign players that everyone knows about as they have been playing in England but then which is better value Forshaw for £4m or Samu for £2.5m (if he gets back to his best form) or Pontus for £3m.

I do think the U23s is the key for us as we are not simply signing local lads but getting 'cheap' foreigners in that can acclimatise for a year or two before going into the first team. If 3 or 4 of Orta's cheap youth signings make the step up to the first team this season then suddenly his record in the transfer market looks a lot better.

Some fans though are far too quick to judge and too impatient for success. Yes I think we all want to see 1 or 2 marquee signings as we all know the weaknesses of the squad but until we see how the team shapes up, and until the window shuts, we will just have to be patient and hope the board gets things right and haven't underestimated the opposition and over estimated our squad.

Will know more over the next two weeks after our six friendlies

Personally i think we naused up the Vydra deal and thats what inspired this semi rant.

Took to long penny pinching with Derby over the fee and Vydra and his agent had time to get greedy, had we acted swiftly when negotiations began Vydra would be a Leeds player by now imo.

£11million and £30k or 50k a week IS to much for Vydra.

In the same way £11mil and 13mil was to much for McCormack (we were responsible for starting of these crazy transfer fees incidentally).

The same way 12-£15mil was to much for Kodjia, the same way £10mil was to much for Hogan etc.

Regarding Vydra, he was the 1st signing i was genuinely excited about since Pablo Hernandez (i was hopeful over Saiz and Ali) but Vydra was really exciting.

The fees (like those above) were to.much but think of all the wasted money we have spent over the last 12months.

Wasted new contracts for very average players , fees and contracts for the likes of Cibicki, Lonners, Wiedwald, Penny, Sacko, De Bock, Roberts, Anita, Bouy etc.

Add all that up thats about £8mil in transfer fees and definitely more then £50k in wages a week, estimates put the cost at about 80k a week in total.

Quite angry that had we been more prudent last summer then while the demands for the current Championship golden boot winner are excessive, we'd only be about £3mil short of his value and saving 30k in wages.

Sigh. Sorry for the ramble.

Cjay that's alright mate - you wear your heart on your sleeve and in your posts and really care.

Don't ever become seriously cynical

...and your analyses are seriously good and well-researched.

Norm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:43 pm Cjay that's alright mate - you wear your heart on your sleeve and in your posts and really care.

Don't ever become seriously cynical

Thanks Norm.

Bit deflated tiz all.

Got rid of WhatTheHeck.

Bielsa arrived June 15th. . And then. . . Nothing. Other teams get deals done in days, its a month on Sunday.

Keep the faith and all that.

Cjay wrote:

Bit deflated tiz all.

Got rid of WhatTheHeck.

Bielsa arrived June 15th. . And then. . . Nothing. Other teams get deals done in days, its a month on Sunday.

Keep the faith and all that.

I understand - I was trying to ignore it and focussing on England, but Croatia put that to bed so I'm having to focus on our team's progress again, which is our annual non-event so far, but I still hope something good is going to come of our latest acquisition, Bielsa, although I share some of your thoughts that we need to have Citeh's cheque-book to make it work.

Still, keep the faith - one year we'll do it right!

Norm wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:56 am I understand - I was trying to ignore it and focussing on England, but Croatia put that to bed so I'm having to focus on our team's progress again, which is our annual non-event so far, but I still hope something good is going to come of our latest acquisition, Bielsa, although I share some of your thoughts that we need to have Citeh's cheque-book to make it work.

Still, keep the faith - one year we'll do it right!

Can only hope!!!

Cjay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 pm Personally i think we naused up the Vydra deal and thats what inspired this semi rant.

Took to long penny pinching with Derby over the fee and Vydra and his agent had time to get greedy, had we acted swiftly when negotiations began Vydra would be a Leeds player by now imo.

£11million and £30k or 50k a week IS to much for Vydra.

In the same way £11mil and 13mil was to much for McCormack (we were responsible for starting of these crazy transfer fees incidentally).

The same way 12-£15mil was to much for Kodjia, the same way £10mil was to much for Hogan etc.

Regarding Vydra, he was the 1st signing i was genuinely excited about since Pablo Hernandez (i was hopeful over Saiz and Ali) but Vydra was really exciting.

The fees (like those above) were to.much but think of all the wasted money we have spent over the last 12months.

Wasted new contracts for very average players , fees and contracts for the likes of Cibicki, Lonners, Wiedwald, Penny, Sacko, De Bock, Roberts, Anita, Bouy etc.

Add all that up thats about £8mil in transfer fees and definitely more then £50k in wages a week, estimates put the cost at about 80k a week in total.

Quite angry that had we been more prudent last summer then while the demands for the current Championship golden boot winner are excessive, we'd only be about £3mil short of his value and saving 30k in wages.

Sigh. Sorry for the ramble.

I totally agree the Vydra saga has got many and myself included ramped up, but I don’t believe for one second he upped his wage demand. He is on £30k a week at Derby and he wants £50k probably wanting Premier League football.

I believe we either failed to do our homework in offering him £30k that he was never going to accept or used it as a PR stunt to sell season tickets, exactly the same with Hernandez, Hull City offered him £50k a week to sign a new contract so why would he accept £30k to join us.

In regards to if a player is worth it, there isn’t really a right or wrong answer, just opinion. My opinion is I’d rather have a team with Vydra and Hernandez in it and see the back of Grot, Lasogga, Sacko, Murphy, O’Kane, Cibicki, Anita and De Bock.

Richard wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:11 am I totally agree the Vydra saga has got many and myself included ramped up, but I don’t believe for one second he upped his wage demand. He is on £30k a week at Derby and he wants £50k probably wanting Premier League football.

I believe we either failed to do our homework in offering him £30k that he was never going to accept or used it as a PR stunt to sell season tickets, exactly the same with Hernandez, Hull City offered him £50k a week to sign a new contract so why would he accept £30k to join us.

In regards to if a player is worth it, there isn’t really a right or wrong answer, just opinion. My opinion is I’d rather have a team with Vydra and Hernandez in it and see the back of Grot, Lasogga, Sacko, Murphy, O’Kane, Cibicki, Anita and De Bock.

You're probably right.

Seemed very naive of us, arrogant even, to think Vydra would join is for the same wage as he was on at Derby and Derby would sell him for the same price that they paid.

If Orta and Kinnear (i think Kinnear gets of a bit lightly, i think he is very much involved in the transfer mess and quite possibly handles negotiations). If they are arrogant enough to try that sort of deal then they need sacking, stinks of arrogance.