Repetitive

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Cjay
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Repetitive

Post by Cjay »

1st in the league so cant really complain to much :)

Just a small concern, maybe shows Bielsa's lack of Championship and 46 game experience.

Thought tonight we looked a bit laboured, not for the 1st time, a few times this season i thought we have looked a bit jaded.

Just little things, tired passes, lapses in concentration, nothing major, yet, but little things.

Saw a stat vs Wednesday i think, Bielsa has used the least amount of players in the league this season (or something like that).

His selections are very consistent and his substitutions by and large are also very consistent (bit boring and frustrating to me but hey ho).

Forshaw replaces Klich or Saiz.
Dallas wiill come on for someone
And usually Lewis Baker comes on to.

Today injury meant Shacks came on (which was a bit odd given Pearce was on the bench).

Bielsa clearly has a pecking order and is very adamant in sticking to it.

Win lose or draw, unless there are injuries, the selection and subs will be the same largely.

Having looked at his career a bit it seems this is common, he rarely makes changes in selection and his subs are almost always the same.

A strict pecking order is the way.

I just wonder if this loyalty may cost us, its a long old season, sometimes changes are necessary, sometimes its good to do something different.

Just a little worry, especially with games coming faster in this league then any Bielsa is used to.

Just hope he is willing to be a bit flexible if needed. :)
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Re: Repetitive

Post by NorfolkWhite »

I think if we had Pablo, Bamford, Roofe and Brown fit we’d see a bit more rotation. Don’t see him changing much in MF or at the back unless there are injuries and suspensions which in truth are usually natural rotation for defenders.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Norm »

Take your point Cjay and I must admit to some ar*e-nipping at times, but so far so good (...ish).
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Re: Repetitive

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NorfolkWhite wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:35 pm I think if we had Pablo, Bamford, Roofe and Brown fit we’d see a bit more rotation. Don’t see him changing much in MF or at the back unless there are injuries and suspensions which in truth are usually natural rotation for defenders.
You're probably right regarding the injuries which is fair.

Thought bringing on Shacks for Douglas and shifting Dallas to lb was odd with Pearce a natural left back and Alioski an international wing back and full back available.

It was that which prompted this tbh, thought it was an odd choice and showed that pecking order (not to mention Clarke has clearly been the more impressive u23 player betweem him and Shacks especially as an attacking player which is where Shacks played).

Worries me a bit that Bielsa may have favourites (like most mangers tbf) but just hope he doesnt allow that to cloud his judgment when making selections.

Pearce should be left back if Douglas is out vs Brentford for example imo.

We tried Dallas at left back before, it doesnt work for long.
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Re: Repetitive

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Norm wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:41 pm Take your point Cjay and I must admit to some ar*e-nipping at times, but so far so good (...ish).
Oh yes Norm so far so good and in no way am i wanting to start a slaughtering of Bielsa :)

Just something that troubled me a bit tonight and before tbh.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by rich_leeds64 »

Maybe the current game plan is down to the injuries to key players and the subs are his way of keeping the plan going for 90 mins rather than changing shape/formation when we just need to stay focussed. The only game for me where it showed up was Birmingham. Other than that 22 points from 11 games is excellent stuff and if we carry on 46 games = 92 points = promotion
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Re: Repetitive

Post by NorfolkWhite »

Cjay wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:04 pm You're probably right regarding the injuries which is fair.

Thought bringing on Shacks for Douglas and shifting Dallas to lb was odd with Pearce a natural left back and Alioski an international wing back and full back available.

It was that which prompted this tbh, thought it was an odd choice and showed that pecking order (not to mention Clarke has clearly been the more impressive u23 player betweem him and Shacks especially as an attacking player which is where Shacks played).

Worries me a bit that Bielsa may have favourites (like most mangers tbf) but just hope he doesnt allow that to cloud his judgment when making selections.

Pearce should be left back if Douglas is out vs Brentford for example imo.

We tried Dallas at left back before, it doesnt work for long.
I know what you mean about the subs being odd, sometimes seems to come up with a difficult solution when there seems to be an obvious one.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by beer belly bert »

Cjay wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:20 pm 1st in the league so cant really complain to much :)

Just a small concern, maybe shows Bielsa's lack of Championship and 46 game experience.

Thought tonight we looked a bit laboured, not for the 1st time, a few times this season i thought we have looked a bit jaded.

Just little things, tired passes, lapses in concentration, nothing major, yet, but little things.

Saw a stat vs Wednesday i think, Bielsa has used the least amount of players in the league this season (or something like that).

His selections are very consistent and his substitutions by and large are also very consistent (bit boring and frustrating to me but hey ho).



Forshaw replaces Klich or Saiz.
Dallas wiill come on for someone
And usually Lewis Baker comes on to.

Today injury meant Shacks came on (which was a bit odd given Pearce was on the bench).

Bielsa clearly has a pecking order and is very adamant in sticking to it.

Win lose or draw, unless there are injuries, the selection and subs will be the same largely.

Having looked at his career a bit it seems this is common, he rarely makes changes in selection and his subs are almost always the same.

A strict pecking order is the way.

I just wonder if this loyalty may cost us, its a long old season, sometimes changes are necessary, sometimes its good to do something different.

Just a little worry, especially with games coming faster in this league then any Bielsa is used to.

Just hope he is willing to be a bit flexible if needed. :)

I think theres only a certain amount of players at the club who can play the Bielsa style of football so selections are limited , when he rested players and brought fringe players in we were beaten by Preston in the cup , I have a few years on you probably cjay so all I would say from experience is "THIS IS LEEDS UNITED , SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE ".
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Re: Repetitive

Post by SG90 »

Cjay wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:20 pm 1st in the league so cant really complain to much :)

Just a small concern, maybe shows Bielsa's lack of Championship and 46 game experience.

Thought tonight we looked a bit laboured, not for the 1st time, a few times this season i thought we have looked a bit jaded.

Just little things, tired passes, lapses in concentration, nothing major, yet, but little things.

Saw a stat vs Wednesday i think, Bielsa has used the least amount of players in the league this season (or something like that).

His selections are very consistent and his substitutions by and large are also very consistent (bit boring and frustrating to me but hey ho).

Forshaw replaces Klich or Saiz.
Dallas wiill come on for someone
And usually Lewis Baker comes on to.

Today injury meant Shacks came on (which was a bit odd given Pearce was on the bench).

Bielsa clearly has a pecking order and is very adamant in sticking to it.

Win lose or draw, unless there are injuries, the selection and subs will be the same largely.

Having looked at his career a bit it seems this is common, he rarely makes changes in selection and his subs are almost always the same.

A strict pecking order is the way.

I just wonder if this loyalty may cost us, its a long old season, sometimes changes are necessary, sometimes its good to do something different.

Just a little worry, especially with games coming faster in this league then any Bielsa is used to.

Just hope he is willing to be a bit flexible if needed. :)
I get what you mean. I found it odd Pearce didn't come on for Douglas and Dallas will probably start if Douglas is injured on Saturday. I also find it odd, Shackleton has featured more prominently than Clarke. The subs are usually like for like rather than game changing, imagine Clarke running at Hull yesterday, the game was so slow and could have done with an injection of pace. I wonder whether Jansson will be dropped when Berardi is fit. I hope not, but we saw him dropped for Boro despite being motm against Norwich.

But who am I to question Bielsa if it's working? Just a bit frustrating really.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Cjay »

beer belly bert wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:43 am I think theres only a certain amount of players at the club who can play the Bielsa style of football so selections are limited , when he rested players and brought fringe players in we were beaten by Preston in the cup , I have a few years on you probably cjay so all I would say from experience is "THIS IS LEEDS UNITED , SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE ".
I shall try :)
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Re: Repetitive

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SG90 wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:59 am I get what you mean. I found it odd Pearce didn't come on for Douglas and Dallas will probably start if Douglas is injured on Saturday. I also find it odd, Shackleton has featured more prominently than Clarke. The subs are usually like for like rather than game changing, imagine Clarke running at Hull yesterday, the game was so slow and could have done with an injection of pace. I wonder whether Jansson will be dropped when Berardi is fit. I hope not, but we saw him dropped for Boro despite being motm against Norwich.

But who am I to question Bielsa if it's working? Just a bit frustrating really.
Yes.

His pecking order means he does things that are a bit odd imo.

He even said himself that because of his substitutions we lost control in the last few 10-15mins.

Because Dallas is better on the right, and Shacks is a right back not a right winger and Klich isnt as suited to playing a number 10 as Saiz (or Baker).

He knows when he makes these changes that the players arent suited to the role (which is both good and odd all in one).
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Re: Repetitive

Post by YorkshireSquare »

Belisa doesn't change things much and his subs are fairly consistent.

But we play with consistency, players know what their job is, where they should be and when to fill in. On the other hand I saw a Hull team chopping and changing trying to find a system that worked for them. And by all accounts they have been like that all season.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by 1964white »

Shields53 wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:11 am Belisa doesn't change things much and his subs are fairly consistent.

But we play with consistency, players know what their job is, where they should be and when to fill in. On the other hand I saw a Hull team chopping and changing trying to find a system that worked for them. And by all accounts they have been like that all season.
My Hull mates were telling me that Hull beat Ipswich 2-0 & then Adkins made five changes in their next match at Wigan where they got beat 2-1
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Re: Repetitive

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:04 pm We tried Dallas at left back before, it doesnt work for long.
This though is a different manaager and different system and way of playing - you could just as easily say we tried Berardi at centreback last year and it didn't work. Somehow, so far, Bielsa manages to make strange things work. Before this season started would anyone on here have even contemplated dropping Jannson for Berardi, or having Berardi and Cooper starting with Jannson on the bench? Before this season how many of us would have thought we'd spend £7m to £10m on a striker and then not play him and prefer to play Roofe, a player that has been in and out of the team over the last 2 seasons, and make it work. Bielsa could probably play a system of 11 outfield players and no keeper and make it work, at least in the short term.

Players want to play, Saiz doesn't want to be subbed, Saiz certainly doesn't want to be rested for a match and certainly I would expect all the other players to be the same. Players want to play, they also want the same players playing with them so they build up understanding. Saiz for example is a better player when he is on the same wavelength with other players but if suddenly 2 or 3 players are rested then the understanding goes - this is the same whether it is 5 a side or the world cup final. Continuity is essential but yes the fear is the burnout especially given the high tempo. The key for us this season will not be us winning games when everyone is playing well but winning games like on Tuesday night where we weren't at our best but were still much the better side. Man Utd won many titles and you only see the highlight reel performances not the matches where they weren't at their fluent best but still won, the times they would get a 96th minute winner or the times where it took a moment of magic from one of their players to win the match. Ferguson would pick the same team for most matches. He'd sometimes make 1 or 2 changes bringing in the likes of Nicky Butt or Phil Neville who understood their roles in the squad/team. They would have better players available but Ferguson knew that he would get steady performances from them and that they knew how he wanted them to play. Dallas is probably in a similar role to this for Bielsa, he knows what he will get and that is probably why he is one of the first players to come on as sub to give someone else a breather. Shackleton may well be another that Bielsa knows he can trust to play in 2 or 3 different positions (a James MIlner type player) rather than perhaps risk Clarke who may do brilliant but equally is more of a risk in him losing the ball trying to be too adventurous. Bielsa will have his favourites, every manager does, but that is because he trusts them to do what he wants them to do. Clarke's time will come, I am sure, but Bielsa will be watching him and probably isn't convinced fully yet - it is a huge step-up from the U23 matches to proper football and sometimes ability is not the biggest factor in being able to make the step up.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:46 am This though is a different manaager and different system and way of playing - you could just as easily say we tried Berardi at centreback last year and it didn't work. Somehow, so far, Bielsa manages to make strange things work. Before this season started would anyone on here have even contemplated dropping Jannson for Berardi, or having Berardi and Cooper starting with Jannson on the bench? Before this season how many of us would have thought we'd spend £7m to £10m on a striker and then not play him and prefer to play Roofe, a player that has been in and out of the team over the last 2 seasons, and make it work. Bielsa could probably play a system of 11 outfield players and no keeper and make it work, at least in the short term.

Players want to play, Saiz doesn't want to be subbed, Saiz certainly doesn't want to be rested for a match and certainly I would expect all the other players to be the same. Players want to play, they also want the same players playing with them so they build up understanding. Saiz for example is a better player when he is on the same wavelength with other players but if suddenly 2 or 3 players are rested then the understanding goes - this is the same whether it is 5 a side or the world cup final. Continuity is essential but yes the fear is the burnout especially given the high tempo. The key for us this season will not be us winning games when everyone is playing well but winning games like on Tuesday night where we weren't at our best but were still much the better side. Man Utd won many titles and you only see the highlight reel performances not the matches where they weren't at their fluent best but still won, the times they would get a 96th minute winner or the times where it took a moment of magic from one of their players to win the match. Ferguson would pick the same team for most matches. He'd sometimes make 1 or 2 changes bringing in the likes of Nicky Butt or Phil Neville who understood their roles in the squad/team. They would have better players available but Ferguson knew that he would get steady performances from them and that they knew how he wanted them to play. Dallas is probably in a similar role to this for Bielsa, he knows what he will get and that is probably why he is one of the first players to come on as sub to give someone else a breather. Shackleton may well be another that Bielsa knows he can trust to play in 2 or 3 different positions (a James MIlner type player) rather than perhaps risk Clarke who may do brilliant but equally is more of a risk in him losing the ball trying to be too adventurous. Bielsa will have his favourites, every manager does, but that is because he trusts them to do what he wants them to do. Clarke's time will come, I am sure, but Bielsa will be watching him and probably isn't convinced fully yet - it is a huge step-up from the U23 matches to proper football and sometimes ability is not the biggest factor in being able to make the step up.
Take the point and Bielsa has seemingly made strange ideas work so far, and Barry DOuglas is out and it seems that it will be Dallas replacing him. And with the greatest of respect to Bielsa it would be hypocritical of me to say i think he is right because i dont, if it was Hecky or TC i would say the same thing.

I dont particularly rate Dallas, and i definitely dont like square pegs in round holes no matter who the manager is. Brentford have 3 of the trickiest, paciest and most creative wingers in the league, Sergi Canos, Said Benrahma and Ollie Watkins. Bielsa mentioned how Dallas had done well at left back last season, he didnt though, he was poor and often a liability on the occasions he played there.

But its clear Dallas is someone Bielsa rates which is fine, he is the legendary manager not me, but i think on this occasion Bielsa is taking a huge risk against such a dangerous team playing someone like Dallas in an unnatural position, it is one that really could come back to bite him and us.

Fully understand your point and continuity, but there is a fine line between that and predictability, if Brentford know Dallas is going to play left back and given how vulnerable teams who play the high line and press like us are to the ball over the top down the channels, the pace Brentford have, Dallas doesnt have that, they get behind him then he is in trouble. He doesnt have the natural defensive instinct that Pearce would have or even Alioski as an international left back.

I cant see us dominating Brentford like we have others, playing Dallas there will leave us exposed imo.

Sometimes the logical choice is just that, because its better.

Bielsa is famous for his faith in certain players, thats fine, but that shouldn't spread to playing them out of position when there are better more natural options available.

Absolutely delighted with what Bielsa has done so far :)

But i dont subscribe to blind faith, and this is one thing that does concern me about Bielsa.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by weasel »

Would certainly agree with you although I would be as concerned about Pearce and Alioski defensively too as for me Pearce looks better going forward than defending and I haven't seen enough of Alioski as a full back to judge him but would expect him to be in the same mould. Although pace is great for a full back I remember Nigel Worthington (former Sheff Wed defender) playing for us in his 30s (winding down his career) and he kept Ryan Giggs quiet all match. Worthington never had any pace when he was younger let alone by the time he came to us as Wilkinson signing (Wilko did love the older steady player). Now saying that though Worthington had played his whole career at full back so had the know-how of how to defend without pace which is obviously something Dallas doesn't have.
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Re: Repetitive

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weasel wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:24 pm Would certainly agree with you although I would be as concerned about Pearce and Alioski defensively too as for me Pearce looks better going forward than defending and I haven't seen enough of Alioski as a full back to judge him but would expect him to be in the same mould. Although pace is great for a full back I remember Nigel Worthington (former Sheff Wed defender) playing for us in his 30s (winding down his career) and he kept Ryan Giggs quiet all match. Worthington never had any pace when he was younger let alone by the time he came to us as Wilkinson signing (Wilko did love the older steady player). Now saying that though Worthington had played his whole career at full back so had the know-how of how to defend without pace which is obviously something Dallas doesn't have.
Ive seen ALi play wing back for his country, did very well against Italy in the qualifiers and Spain to i seem to remember, id be a lot happier with ALioski as a full back then Dallas personally, i prefer left footed left backs or right footed right backs, not a fan of inverted full backs.

Fair point, just slow being doesnt mean you cant be a good full back, Cafu was 36 and had no pace left when he made 6 appearances for Brazil in 2006.

But, as you say regarding Nigel Worthington, he had played as a full back his whole career, he had that instinct, he knew when to go and when not to.

Dallas wouldnt.

He had one game last season at full back and he was brilliant, i think i even did a post saying sorry to him :)

But then Fulham happened.

Dallas played right back, Ryan Sessegnon had the freedom of the pitch, Dallas never got near him, was always miles away from him, out of position constantly, and the only time Dallas did get near him was when Sessegnon walked past him.

He looked like what he was, an average winger playing full back.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Norm »

Good thread - entertaining and apposite.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Cjay »

Have to say was a bit disappointed with Bielsa vs Brentford.

Bit concerned to.

As expected he played Dallas at left back, a choice made not because it was logical but because Bielsa likes Dallas and he is higher in the pecking order then the logical replacement.

It didnt work, Dallas showed his lack of defensive sense and but for BPF 1st half we would have been 1 down.

Again, we go a goal down, next thing Bielsa did was take off Mateusz Klich (4 goals 3 assists). He replaced him with Adam Forshaw who in 4 or 5 seasons has 4 assists and 2 goals.

Its totally illogical and is unfortunately symptomatic of the way Bielsa is with his pecking order and consistent ways.

He then and all credit to him finally gave Jack Clarke his chance, and the teenager was exactly what we hoped, brave, direct and threatening.

Clarke coming on meant Alioski went to left back and we were all the better for it with the naturally left footed international wing back providing a superb display offensively and defensively.

And the fact that Bielsa hadnt just done this from the start irks me.

It was logical, it made sense, but pecking order comes first with Bielsa.

And the Baker change for Saiz was predictable to although Saiz hadnt done much tbf.

But im frustrated for a few reasons.

1) Clarke will almost certainly be sent back to the u23s while Shacks will probably remain with the 1st team when injuries subside.

2) Dallas a right footed winger at left back made no sense and it frustrates me that Bielsa did it because with the greatest respect it was obviously not right.

3) There is no reason to bring on Adam Forshaw for Klich when chasing a goal.

Its minor at the moment in annoyance, but i am concerned by the predictability of Bielsa and his selections and changes at times.

If this was Hecky or TC im sure people would be irked so i dont think Bielsa should be treated different.

Very happy to be comfortable in the playoffs :)

But i do think Bielsa may need to try doing the logical thing more then the predictable.
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Re: Repetitive

Post by Norm »

I wonder if Mr. Bielsa read this thread, especially after Alioski's showing as a left back/wing-back?

Play your cards right and you could end up having your own cooler mate - slightly smaller than his of course. :)
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