An Identity

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Cjay
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An Identity

Post by Cjay » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:50 pm

Was going to leave this till tomorrow but ive got another one for tomorrow, so do this now :)

Read on the Brentford forum when asked about whether Brentford were the best side we have faced Bielsa said "It is very hard to play against Brentford, not because of their defence -they defend well - but it is how they use the ball whenever they have it. All the players (of Brentford) feel at ease with the ball".

Its the last line that interests me "All the players (of Brentford) feel at ease with the ball".

Felt it was noticeable that when really pressed we do have players who arent naturally ball players.

Brentford are excellent on the ball, there recruitment is amazing and is tailored for there style, its something to do with some system they have apparently, im not sure, but its so good.


Whereas we have a missmash, we do have natural ball players but we have players who have done great jobs (which they and especially Bielsa deserve great credit for), but they arent naturally good on the ball.

Dallas, Ayling, Phillips, Cooper for example.

The last 3 have done well this season and have looked better on the ball then in the past, but there was a noticeable difference between them under pressure and the Brentford cbs or the holding midfielder who won MOTM.

They looked more comfortable imo.

Bielsa has done a superb job, with the limitations he has in the squad its superb what he has managed to do.

But players have limitations, you can only teach so much.

Natural ball players will always look more comfortable under pressure then those who have been coached for it.

Was disappointed with how some of our players reacted to being properly pressed, not something we have really had, especially at home.

My question is will the limitations in our squad hamper us in the end?

To be clear im not having a real go at the players mentioned, nor Bielsa.

Just recognising the limits in our squad and asking whether we can sustain a style that isnt natural to some of our players.

Or will we require reinforcements in January in order to sustain the challenge?

Bally
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Re: An Identity

Post by Bally » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:10 pm

Dean Smith has been at Brentford since 2015and has had time to build his own team and get them playing the way he wants.
When's the last time Leeds had a manager that long?
Leeds fans seem to want instant success and when it doesnt happen call for the managers head

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faaip
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Re: An Identity

Post by faaip » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:47 pm

Plus Brentford got real dirty real quick when we started to play them off the park...
BPF - Beradi - Jansson - Forshaw - Cooper - Douglas - Hernandez - Klich - Saiz - Roofe - Clarke

"objective fan" - is that a consistent oxymoron?"

Cjay
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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:12 am

Bally wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:10 pm
Dean Smith has been at Brentford since 2015and has had time to build his own team and get them playing the way he wants.
When's the last time Leeds had a manager that long?
Leeds fans seem to want instant success and when it doesnt happen call for the managers head
Whose calling for anyones head?

Just asking if coaching is viable as a long term solution to a players limitations.

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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:13 am

faaip wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:47 pm
Plus Brentford got real dirty real quick when we started to play them off the park...
I agree.

Wouldn't say dirty, Birmingham were dirty but they certainly used gamesmanship i suppose.

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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:22 am

Just to highlight the difference.

Liam Cooper had a very poor 58% passing accuracy, including 12 long balls of which only 3 were accurate, a clear indication of a cb under pressure.

Both Brentford cbs had a far higher passing accuracy, 66 and 70% respectively with far fewer long balls.

Dallas had 73% compared to the Brentford left back (who was also playing out of position ) he had 83% although Dallas made 5 more passes.

Phillips had 77.8% compared to Mokotjo who made more passes with fewer long balls, 88%.

Although we had fewer long passes overall it is clear those highlighted coped worse then there comparative opponents.

So there is merit imo to the question.

Can coaching really be a long term solution or will we need to try and replace those in our squad who are not naturally suited to BielsaBall in January?

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1964white
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Re: An Identity

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:22 am

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:13 am
I agree.

Wouldn't say dirty, Birmingham were dirty but they certainly used gamesmanship i suppose.
Brentford fans weren't having it when I accused their team of gamesmanship, maybe Dean Smith feels they need more edge to their game to achieve results & future success

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Re: An Identity

Post by Bally » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:35 am

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:12 am
Whose calling for anyones head?

Just asking if coaching is viable as a long term solution to a players limitations.
I'm talking about the last few managers, not this one none have been given the time
Last edited by Bally on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Norm
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Re: An Identity

Post by Norm » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:42 am

Cjay wrote:

Just to highlight the difference.

Liam Cooper had a very poor 58% passing accuracy, including 12 long balls of which only 3 were accurate, a clear indication of a cb under pressure.

Both Brentford cbs had a far higher passing accuracy, 66 and 70% respectively with far fewer long balls.

Dallas had 73% compared to the Brentford left back (who was also playing out of position ) he had 83% although Dallas made 5 more passes.

Phillips had 77.8% compared to Mokotjo who made more passes with fewer long balls, 88%.

Although we had fewer long passes overall it is clear those highlighted coped worse then there comparative opponents.

So there is merit imo to the question.

Can coaching really be a long term solution or will we need to try and replace those in our squad who are not naturally suited to BielsaBall in January?
It sounds like a good and valid question Cjay. Did you notice the same traits from the same players before Bielsa came in or didn't it apply then because we played with a different, maybe less demanding, style?

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Re: An Identity

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am

Bally wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:10 pm
Dean Smith has been at Brentford since 2015and has had time to build his own team and get them playing the way he wants.
When's the last time Leeds had a manager that long?
Leeds fans seem to want instant success and when it doesnt happen call for the managers head
No one's calling for Bielsa's head. I seem to remember you saying we had to keep Heckaday because of continuity, despite how crap he was.

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Re: An Identity

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:28 am

Ayling, Cooper, Phillips, Dallas are definitely the weak links for me, especially on the ball. Cooper is good on the ball but makes too many mistakes. Foyth on loan in January would be a good improvement and Medel to compete with Phillips. Shackleton should get more games at RB as well as Ayling struggles with 3 games in a week. Never rated Dallas and said it was a mistake not to sell him to Norwich last year.

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Re: An Identity

Post by Bally » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:13 am

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
No one's calling for Bielsa's head. I seem to remember you saying we had to keep Heckaday because of continuity, despite how crap he was.
I haven't said anyones calling for Bielsas head.
But to build a team like Brentford any manager needs to be given time to get over his style of play and get the players in he wants

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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:23 am

1964white wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:22 am
Brentford fans weren't having it when I accused their team of gamesmanship, maybe Dean Smith feels they need more edge to their game to achieve results & future success
No they wernt.

Although a few did suggest the ref favourable to them in another thread.

Fair play to Brentford wouldn't expect there fans to agree, we wouldn't.

Just seen this to

https://www.change.org/p/investigate-jeremy-simpson?

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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:25 am

Bally wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:35 am
I'm talking about the last few managers, not this one none have been given the time
Fair enough.

Which ones would you have given time?

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Re: An Identity

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:26 am

Norm wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:42 am
It sounds like a good and valid question Cjay. Did you notice the same traits from the same players before Bielsa came in or didn't it apply then because we played with a different, maybe less demanding, style?
Yeah i think nobody ever over the last few years would have said those players were comfortable on the ball particularly.

Did you ever look at them and think they were Norm?

Bielsa has done a great job but no amount of coaching can make up for natural gifts can it?

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Re: An Identity

Post by weasel » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:43 pm

I feel that if the players we have now had been playing this way for 3 or 4 years then they would look a lot more comfortable than they do now. That is where Brentford have the huge advantage as they have had the continuity of playing style for the past few seasons so naturally their players are far more comfortable. Whilst our players have limitations I feel the repetition of playing a certain way every week for several seasons would improve any player.

That has been the biggest frustration in recent years where we have yo-yoed from a manager playing one way to a manager playing another way almost to complete opposite ends of the spectrum. It seemed like the boards kept thinking this way isn't working we need to try the opposite.
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