Spying Accusation - EFL Verdict

For everything Leeds United related and everything not - Have your say... the Marching on Together way!
Forum rules
Please be sure you are acquainted with the forum rules outlined within our FAQs.

Help support the site by using our Amazon Affiliate link when making any purchases from Amazon.
User avatar
becchio bear
Queen of Quotes
Queen of Quotes
Posts: 17306
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:19 pm
Twitter: @Becchiobear
Location: Bramley Leeds

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by becchio bear » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:12 pm

Does anyone know who our lawyers are? :bear:

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28700
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by faaip » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm

Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel

User avatar
whiteswan
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 5834
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:10 am

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by whiteswan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:30 pm

faaip wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel
They were Ken Bates lawyers weren't they? :lol:

User avatar
becchio bear
Queen of Quotes
Queen of Quotes
Posts: 17306
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:19 pm
Twitter: @Becchiobear
Location: Bramley Leeds

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by becchio bear » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 pm

faaip wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel
Laugh all you like but we need decent lawyers on our side!!

We need someone to come out fighting on our side. Shout from the rooftops that we've done nothing wrong... :bear:

User avatar
SaraM
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 993
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:27 pm

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by SaraM » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:51 pm

becchio bear wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:48 pm
But nobody was aware of anything until Derby.... so surely they can't be arguing about something they had no knowledge about?? That is utterly ridiculous. :bear:
It is, and it seems to me that it should be a matter of the other clubs getting their own houses in order if they suspect their own players or employees.

User avatar
rab_rant
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3721
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by rab_rant » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:34 am

faaip wrote:Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel
I heard that they had made a strategic alliance with a new company Cheetum & Fleesum.

Peter Ridsdale is on their board of directors.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

Scottish Steel and Irish Fire that's the weapon I desire.

SelmaBamaMan
Youth Team
Youth Team
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:37 am
Location: home town Selma, AL

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by SelmaBamaMan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:56 am

Every article I have read says the English Football Leagues is investigating whether there was a violation of the Club Charter of 2018. I have searched the Regulations on the EFL site and found no mention of the Club Charter of 2018 except this page:
https://www.efl.com/news/2018/june/efl- ... -round-up/
The first paragraph does not tell that there was a vote and the vote met the requirements for adoption. It merely says what the vote needs to be to be adopted. Although the article on that conference says this Charter will be in the regulations, none of regulations on the EFL site contain the language “utmost good faith and honesty…” See below.
The current Regulation 3.4 on the EFL site states:
3.4
In all matters and transactions relating to The League each Club shall behave towards each other Club and The League with the utmost good faith. Further, each Club shall deliver to the League a copy of the Club Charter signed by the appropriate Relevant Person for and on behalf of the Club. The League shall be entitled to publish the Club Charter.
The article on the conference says:
In addition, the Charter commits all Clubs to behave with the utmost good faith and honesty to each other….
To punish MB and/or the Club for violating something that has not been adopted gave neither MB or the Club fair warning what was prohibited. In addition, the EFL would have an impossible task trying to explain that utmost good faith under the 3.4 rule includes spying is dishonest when they held a conference which had an outcome of adding “honesty.”. Lastly, the EFL would have a very, very task punishing MB and/or the Club for “spying” because of all the examples posters on here have pointed out of others violating the existing Rule 3.4 “utmost good faith” and the rampant covering of mouths of managers and players on the pitch who cover their mouths so that the opposition spies cannot read their lips as I’ve heard watching hundreds of matches and heard the broadcasters explain why it was being done.

User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 7888
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Espana

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by weasel » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:17 am

It is a ridiculously vague regulation with no real definitions of what constitutes good faith and honesty. Almost like the all encompassing God/Santa is watching you and judging everything you do even when no one can actually see what you are doing.
Senor El Weasel

SelmaBamaMan
Youth Team
Youth Team
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:37 am
Location: home town Selma, AL

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by SelmaBamaMan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:11 pm

weasel wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:17 am
It is a ridiculously vague regulation with no real definitions of what constitutes good faith and honesty. Almost like the all encompassing God/Santa is watching you and judging everything you do even when no one can actually see what you are doing.
Weasel you hit the nail on the head on the vagueness of the regulation. A statute or a regulation that is vague in that it does not clearly describe the conduct that is prohibited and provides for punishment in some way violates due process of law because the decision finding there was a violation or imposing punishment is inherently made or founded upon individual discretion, individual opinion, judgment or prejudice, rather than on fixed rules, procedures, or law. It therefore does not matter that procedures for the trial or administrative hearing were followed to the letter because the substance of the law or regulation was flawed because of its vagueness.

Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 7966
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by Cjay » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:23 pm

I think the Talksport bloke was spot on.

Its a move designed to disrupt our promotion bid.

Bielsa has made the EFL look stupid, exploited a clear flaw in there rules.

You've got influences in the EFL board against us like the Bristol City bloke whose boss has been very vocal.

You've got Sky pushing Frank Lampard like he is some sort of deity.

Sky would love Lampard to win promotion.

You've got no mark pundits desperate to stay relevant like Collymore or stay in Skys good books like Jenas and Andrews pushing the anti Bielsa agenda.

If it was the other way around this would have been sorted "naughty boy Frank dont do it again".

Sky would have been falling over themselves to tell you how revolutionary Lampard was for thinking outside the box.

They'd have had Arry on to tell us how clever Frank was.

There is no way they would have brought so much negative attention to it either.

Way i see it is the EFL know they cant punish us with a points deduction.

But they have reached a compromise with the old boys club " we will keep the pressure on for as long as we can and make vague statements every now and then".

It stinks and its wrong and its not fair and its basically xenophobic.

It really is imo, it is disgusting the way Sky and the EFL have treated Bielsa throughout this thing.

I dont go on the whole conspiracy thing, but there is no way they have treated Bielsa the same as they would a British manager, Lampard, Pulis, Moore etc.

Hell Pulis admitted he used to get information of opposition contacts pre game, not a word about that anywhere on Sky.

The football aspect is wrong treating the club how they have,leaving us hanging, Shaun harvey doing radio interviews.

But the way they have treated Bielsa is the worst part imo, Sky have a lot to answer for in that respect.

BGwhite
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:02 am

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by BGwhite » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:59 am

I really do think that inadvertently the FL/FA are actually helping the players here by getting them fired up . I also think that MB will be more determined than ever to get Leeds promoted because of all this nonsense. Whether it will cause him to assess the situation at the end of the season only he will know but he's come this far now he will want to see it through to it's most successful conclusion and we all know what that means

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


NorfolkWhite
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by NorfolkWhite » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:29 am

I’m not sure the fact that there is no definition of what our conduct should (or shouldn’t) conform to really matters, lawyers make fortunes every day arguing about what contract terms and clauses mean beacause they are vague. I just hope that any sanction that is handed down is one that we can take on the chin and move on as quickly as possible. Anything worth appealing or challenging in some form will just be a disaster.

NorfolkWhite
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by NorfolkWhite » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:31 am

p.s. - Shaun Harvey should just keep his gob shut until this whole thing is concluded, it is between the club and the authorities until there is something to say.

User avatar
Chilli D
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 981
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by Chilli D » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Any punishment other than a verbal or written warning from the FA/EFL will be absolutely creamed by the club's lawyers.
You cannot punish a club or an individual for sending someone to stand on public land and watch a training session.
Even if said individual decides to prune the bushes at the same time.
As CJay says, the treatment of Bielsa in all this is nothing short if Xenophobic.
If they punish Bielsa then they need to punish any manager who has gone to watch a game of a team they are playing the following week. Why else would a manager go if not to get an idea of how they play?
And Shaun Harvey should just shut up and f**k off. Never did like that snivelling twat when he was at our place.

SelmaBamaMan
Youth Team
Youth Team
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:37 am
Location: home town Selma, AL

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by SelmaBamaMan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:30 am

The attorneys will go to town with the existing regulation only saying “good faith” and the addition of “ “ discussed at the Club Charter Conferene of 2018 because: 1) good faith is not defined in Section 1 of the EFL Regulations, see https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/ef ... --general/; or anywhere else in the EFL Rules and Regulation posted on the EFL site; 2) I have three times tried to find the English law definition of “good faith” and found nothing about it outside of English contract law showing the English law is very reluctant to imply good faith in contracts beyond meaning that each party is to act honestly to achieve their end of the obligation of the contract; 3) the fact that the EFL had a conference on adding “honesty” to the only prior requirement of “good faith” towards each other is an admission of the EFL that “honesty” was not included within the definition of “good faith” and all the criticisms essentially assert that “spying” is cheating, i.e. not honest. All of that reduces itself to what Cjay said on his post of February 8, 2019: “We should just refuse to cooperate from now on and tell the EFL if they punish us we will see them in The Court Of Arbitration For Sport.”

User avatar
SaraM
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 993
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:27 pm

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by SaraM » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:43 am

Tempting though it is to take a defiant line, and I agree that we would be perfectly justified in doing so, the club's response of bland platitudes and ostensible cooperation actually does more to maintain a stance of innocence, whilst leaving the EFL to come up with the goods, looking more and more like the unreasonable aggressor as time passes without them producing anything concrete. I sense that the general mood has shifted in our favour, not least because people become quickly bored with manufactured outrage.

User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 71369
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: Spying Accusation !!!

Post by 1964white » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:10 pm

Screenshot 2019-02-18 at 19.10.22.png
Screenshot 2019-02-18 at 19.10.22.png (52.54 KiB) Viewed 736 times

BGwhite
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:02 am

Re: Spying Accusation - EFL Verdict

Post by BGwhite » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:18 pm

Glad that's all over . Pathetic.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


NorfolkWhite
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Spying Accusation - EFL Ve

Post by NorfolkWhite » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:19 pm

Club have accepted the punishment and will not contest the decision.

Seems OTT to me but I guess we draw a line under the whole thing and move on.

User avatar
dezzy
Manager
Manager
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 5:46 pm
Location: Cork Ireland

Re: Spying Accusation - EFL Verdict

Post by dezzy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:19 pm

I would say there will be plenty of disgruntled people within the EFL that they couldn’t sanction us further. Let’s hope we can push on now this has been put the bed. Horrendously handled by the EFL and FA, clearly trying to disrupt our club. Let’s pay them in coppers
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat..

Post Reply

Advertisment