Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:45 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:58 pm
Everybody is fighting for points since game 1 surely?

Sunderland been down the bottom most of the season, dont imagine they been coasting till the last few games.
Clearly I am I apologise for being a moron

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:52 pm

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:45 pm
Clearly I am I apologise for being a moron
Respect your opinion Faaip.

Just we disagree.

Nothing wrong with that.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by faaip » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:52 pm
Respect your opinion Faaip.

Just we disagree.

Nothing wrong with that.
I spent last week just reading not posting (outside of music and the liggy thread) 90% was anti Heck rhetoric and a downer and I'm just not that guy. I'll criticize and move on but I'll always support the team not try and bury it because I have an issue with one person.

Christ I even praised Weidwald after 2/3 games and I'm one of the few saying keep him as back up. Even after being his biggest critic from game 1. Didn't like the TC hiring (no rep, no experience and came a cross as a poser,) didn't start 20 get out of Leeds threads and make him the focus of my every post.

Problem is I respect you as a poster so it's hard to see such an intransigent stance when no one actually knows what will happen in the future.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:28 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:45 pm
Football is a simple game.
Simple. No doubt. That`s why any simpelton can have success as a manager.
Life is a simple `game`: you are born, you live, you die.
Wins vs losses.
Points vs no points.
True. The only relevant knowledge required to be a successfull manager. lol
Nothing in between matters, managers are judged on there wins, they are judged on there successes and failures, they are judged against there peers and predecessors.
Now here it get`s complicated in real life. But: simplifications warpe facts.
Thats all i have done with Hecky.
If you did in a not simplificated manner: is that sufficient? And if yes: what should be concluded from this? That he should be sacked whatever?
I've judged him on his wins and losses, there facts you cant warp those.
Yes, you have. That`s partly legit, partly not legit.
It doesn`t matter what the quality of the squad is? Any speficic circumstances at all have no relevance?
Simplification can be warping...
Similar you cant warp his record at Barnsley or his record overall.
Not in regard to the numbers of wins, draws, losses. But out of context such `facts` have little value. They usually don`t tell the whole story, not even necessary the relevant parts of the story.
His win percentage in the Championship is 26% and his points per game is 1.1 thereabouts.
This season he has accumulated 40 points, not warped its just the truth.
The average position of teams we have beaten under Hecky is 17th.
His points per game as Leeds manager is 0.9, his win percentage is just over 20%.
The form table under Heckingbottom has us 18th during that period, the lowest this season under a similar amount of games.
Our goal difference stands at -10 with 15 scored 25 conceded. Again the worst this season under any equal match comparis
100 words saying nothing more than you mentioned in regard to number of wins, draws, losses.
Nothing warped or manipulated or twisted in anything I've said there, those are all facts, unquestionable and totally true.
You don`t understand that facts only exist in regard to a context and interpretation. (Yes, rather philosophical, but not soo difficult to understand. I`ve mentioned many of the aspects of such context, so no need for me to repeat them. But in regard to wins, draws, losses: as such they say nothing. Relevant is what the best (or a good) manager could have achieved under identical circumstances. The comparison allows to say that a manager achieved, overachieved or underachieved.)
My opinion on Hecky or any manager cant alter the facts.
No, but they are facts in a rather limited sense. But I don`t intend to repeat myself.

And now: should we sack Heck whatever? Or only if a better manager is in sight and willing? McCarthy would fulfill your criteria I guess (well, maybe not). Would you want him? If yes: a mistake in my eyes (based on other criteria I can name if you are interested)
If no: why not?
From all of the managers appointed by Cellino, Bates and Radz: how many fulfilled your criteria of good manager and does the extent of such fulfillment correlate with the success they had? Without checking that out in detail, I would be very surprised if that was the case.

And: please say under what circumstances you would rate Heck as being successful if he stayed.
Last edited by fred on Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by fred » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:12 pm

Norm wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:23 pm
Over time I've learned one immutable fact - you will never change someone's opinion.
Are you sure? lol

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Norm » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:53 am

lol

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by 1964white » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:41 am

faaip wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:05 pm
I spent last week just reading not posting (outside of music and the liggy thread) 90% was anti Heck rhetoric and a downer and I'm just not that guy. I'll criticize and move on but I'll always support the team not try and bury it because I have an issue with one person.

Christ I even praised Weidwald after 2/3 games and I'm one of the few saying keep him as back up. Even after being his biggest critic from game 1. Didn't like the TC hiring (no rep, no experience and came a cross as a poser,) didn't start 20 get out of Leeds threads and make him the focus of my every post.

Problem is I respect you as a poster so it's hard to see such an intransigent stance when no one actually knows what will happen in the future.
You're a well respected top man on here Faaip :tup:

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Cjay » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:34 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:28 pm









Yes, you have. That`s partly legit, partly not legit.
It doesn`t matter what the quality of the squad is? Any speficic circumstances at all have no relevance?
Simplification can be warping...
Of course you have to take the squad into account, but that cant be an excuse for total abject failure, which is what his spell has been. TC had many injuries and suspensions, Aston Villa have, Sheffield Wednesday when they beat us were missing more key players then us, i listed them it was a staggering list they had unavailable. Even with those unavailable is that an excuse for not beating Sunderland for example? You have to draw the line somewhere with regards to taking missing players into account, and the squad hasnt had that many injuries until fairly recently, certainly not in his early games.

Not in regard to the numbers of wins, draws, losses. But out of context such `facts` have little value. They usually don`t tell the whole story, not even necessary the relevant parts of the story.
You can draw on the views of the Barnsley fans on Hecky, thats usually a decent indicator of a manager i find. You can use your own intelligence to see that the Barnsley side that won promotion, won the JPT and was top 10 in January 2017 were not Hecky's players. That's not warped or unfair, its simply factual, the majority of the players top 10 in 2017 were there when Hecky arrived, yes he had key players sold but he failed to replace them sufficiently. He didnt have tons of cash but he was given more then plenty of managers, so again the usual defence of " he didnt have much money to spend" isnt entirely valid, he had more then Neil Harris for example, he spent more last summer then Dean Smith at Brentford. Leon, whose opinion is well respected round here and goes to most games himself said something like "this is the worst Barnsley team he can remember", that was back when we played them at Oakwell. That was a side built by Hecky, not with loans and freebies like Bolton, but with millions in cash, officially the 18th most expensive squad in the league.




You don`t understand that facts only exist in regard to a context and interpretation. (Yes, rather philosophical, but not soo difficult to understand. I`ve mentioned many of the aspects of such context, so no need for me to repeat them. But in regard to wins, draws, losses: as such they say nothing. Relevant is what the best (or a good) manager could have achieved under identical circumstances. The comparison allows to say that a manager achieved, overachieved or underachieved.)
Ok then, well the new manager at Barnsley has a better Points per game record then Hecky did with his own players this season, TC had a far better Points per game and win ratio then Hecky with the same players (minus key players recently for Hecky like BPF, Adam Forshaw, Paudie O'Connor) . And having lost Ayling, Berardi twice through suspension, Ronaldo VIeira unfit early season, Pierre Lasogga unfit, Kalvin Phillips twice through suspension, Stuart Dallas was injured for some time, Caleb EKuban twice injured, Liam Cooper injuries and suspensions etc. So thats two separate managers who have done better with the same squad as Hecky, both with extenuating circumstances like Hecky (injuries and suspensions for TC and Hecky and not his players for Jose Morais, something again used to excuse Hecky). As to whether Hecky underachieved in both circumstances then the answer must be yes, TC experienced injuries and suspensions also in large numbers and Jose Morais is working with a squad that isnt his own, therefore the same excuses cant be used to excuse Paul. So there is the relevance you asked for. :)


And now: should we sack Heck whatever? Or only if a better manager is in sight and willing? McCarthy would fulfill your criteria I guess (well, maybe not). Would you want him? If yes: a mistake in my eyes (based on other criteria I can name if you are interested)
If no: why not?
From all of the managers appointed by Cellino, Bates and Radz: how many fulfilled your criteria of good manager and does the extent of such fulfillment correlate with the success they had? Without checking that out in detail, I would be very surprised if that was the case.
No Mick McCarthy most certainly doesnt fit my criteria at all, like you i wont repeat myself, ive said why before. There is a host of "better managers" out there, technically available, whether they are willing or not neither you or i can know. Better in terms of history and record, better in terms of tactical philosophy, better in terms of a fit for our club imo.
Gary Monk did, he played the sort of football i like when he was at Swansea ( as it turned out that wasnt how he worked here preferring a more pragmatic approach),but Gary did, he had a decent record, he was well respected, he signed some decent players. And yes, i think he did do as well as expected in his defence, we ran out of steam but that i think is a lot to do with MC and Radz not backing him in January.
TC didnt excite me, however i could see the logic behind his appointment given his background and the clear direction we were striving for in regards to the philosophy through the age groups. I think TC did let himself down in regards to his marginalizing of certain players, but i also think the fans who complain that we didnt compete vs physical teams are missing the simple point TC wasnt given physical players to counter. He could only play the way the players in the squad allowed, that wasn't physically and that cost us, down to Orta that one. Yes TC for me did a very very good job, so he exceeded my expectations upon appointment, when you consider his record vs other foreign coaches in there first season in this league, when you compare his record to his successor, when you compare the cost of our squad to others in this league i think 10th place was about right, as such TC was overachieving for much of his time here.

And: please say under what circumstances you would rate Heck as being successful if he stayed.
He has to avoid signing Barnsley players for one, that side is awful and not one of them are good enough. He has to stop making excuses, blaming the players, blaming the ref, blaming "key moments", he makes far to many excuses which is symptomatic of a poor manager imo, and one unwilling to take responsibility, it will only alienate the fans and players as we have already seen. He needs to change the playing style (i doubt he can), copy the u23s and u18s, that is crucial for me, and why i would avoid old fashioned English managers. He needs to stop with this "overachieving" nonsense he comes out with all the time, again thats making excuses before the event and a negative mentality showing his background as a relegation battling manager, that may have worked at Barnsley but it doesnt wash here, fans dont want to hear that "we have to overachieve to make top 6" . Finally, simply he has to get top 6 next season, not promotion but top 6, nothing less will do, sick of mediocrity, sick of 5 year plans, sick of no progress, if Hecky stays he has to do all those things for me, for the good of the club in some cases, but also for the good of himself.

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Re: Leeds v Barnsley - Team/News/Reports/Ratings

Post by Oscar » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:09 pm

Disappointing performance I felt on Saturday, a wins a win I guess but the performances/style of football has been what I have been looking at more than anything over the last few weeks and I can't say I have been impressed. I was quite positive about the appointment but Heckingbottom hasn't changed anything so far and the results have been poor. We might have won on Saturday but I thought the substitutions Heckingbottom made on Saturday were poor, bringing on Ekuban for Alioski meant Roofe had to change position and it caused a lot of disruption and he waited far far too long to bring on Forshaw vs better opponents that game finishes 2-2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Peacock-Farrell 7- Great save before HT, one or two poor moments dealing with crosses but another impressive display.
Pennington 6- Terrible first half, improved in the second half slightly didn't look comfortable at RB.
Jansson 5- Don't have a clue what he was trying to do on their goal totally missed the header which creates the goal.
O'Connor 5- Unlucky with the own goal probably his toughest game so far.
Pearce 8- Man Of The Match, great goal and contributed so much going forward, solid defensively very impressive.
Vieira 6- Didn't protect the defence as well as he can his positioning at times wasn't great.
Phillips 7- Thought he did reasonably well with some good use of the ball, the defensive side of his game has been poor for weeks now though he needs to help Vieira out more.
Alioski 7- Created a good chance for himself first half, a difficult game for him as his touch let him down quite a lot but he kept going and timed his run well for the goal.
Saiz 5- At times brilliant but his final pass really let him down, lost the ball far too often as well.
Hernandez 5- A rare poor performance for Pablo, his final pass for a change just let him down the main thing was though the idea was right every time.
Roofe 8- Thought he was excellent never stopped all afternoon despite getting very little service, great work for the second goal and very nearly created another one after that.
Subs:
Ekuban 4- His hold up play was terrible and that made the last 10-15 minutes more difficult than it needed to be.
Also a keen Barcelona supporter since 2004-2005 (when they were average.)

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