Loan Signings

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by leic white 63 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:42 pm

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:36 pm
Over the years we've always gone for the cheaper options, it appears we still do. Mount was probably going to cost us more in salaries which are rarely disclosed to the fans

We signed Douglas for a snip @ £3m, had he been touted at £5m or above I doubt we'd have pursued him after our first approach
afraid it always going to be the case under radrizzani ! yes hes done good steadied the ship put us on a even keel and brought in a master craftman in biesla but make no mistake everything he does is for his own personal financial gain. yes brought the ground back and then apparently put it in one of his own parent companies name !! just another greedy shrewd business man out to line his own pockets and why shouldnt he , hes not a long die hard leeds fan !
spent chris wood instalment money on douglas and sold vieira to buy bamford. ( good business imo ) and as discussed on this thread the cheap loanees options. . unfortunately thats the way it will be and will continue to be . just hope he shows some ambition come january window and its not another false dawn and miss the boat.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:55 pm

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:25 pm
I suspect we didn't even consider those more high profile loanees all doing well for their new clubs whilst our loan signings struggle to make an impact in our U23's let alone the first team :(
Well out of the 7 that Cjay mentioned -

Barnes nearly joined us but seemingly preferred to stay in the midlands - probably a sensible decision on his part given the loan is only until January so why move house etc (don't know if he is married/girlfriend/kids etc) when it is just a short term loan. Nothing we can do there and possibly because of how close we cam to signing him we may have missed out on others in the same position whilst pursuing him.

Mount - Presumably the fact Lampard is in charge at Derby played a big part and may even have been the only reason Chelsea let him go out on loan (as a favour to Lampard). Also worth noting that a winger we appeared keen on signing (forget the name think it was from Brentford) chose Derby over us citing Lampard as the main reason. Despite Lampard's lack of managerial experience he has the pulling power that Bielsa originally in this country seemed to lack - would be interesting to see how many young players would be interested now given how much Bielsa has improved the likes of Phillips.

Gayle - No chance that we could get Gayle as he is part of a loan swap involving WBA and Newcastle. Newcastle seem to view Gayle as a championship player only (seems he is the new Nugent, Rhodes etc) and wanted WBA's Salomon Rondon instead for the season (with presumably WBA not wanting to sell him in the hope they get promoted and they view Rondon as a premiership class player).

Abraham - So given we signed Bamford for £7m to £10m who was only warming the bench then where would Tammy Abraham have fitted in? I am sure if we had not signed Bamford and got Abraham instead on loan then a lot of people would have been slagging off the board for not actually buying players (as it would have meant Douglas was the only signing). Yes a decent player but if we had signed him and played him then where would it have left Roofe and Bamford? Put simply a good player but in a position we had no need to make a further signing.

Besic - Good reputation but the club has Phillips doing well in the defensive midfield role and Forshaw able to play there as well. Not sure Besic would be an upgrade but again if picked it would be at the expense of one of our players and presumably no option to buy.

Hector & Norwood - Similar to Besic really.

It makes me think Bielsa's wanted outfield players in Baker, Harrison and Brown that would be happy to be squad players so that he could develop players at the club and simply add competition rather than stunting the progress of players at our club. It also seemed that we weren't expecting to do as well as we have so far - promotion the aim for next season and a such maybe that played a part in the loan signings as the emphasis was more on seeing who was good enough for next season.

Now don't get me wrong I would have been delighted if say we had signed Foden on loan from City but apart from that I don't think any of the other players available were that much better than the ones we have that it would have been worth the loss of a Roofe or Phillips for a season.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:21 pm

weasel wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:55 pm
Well out of the 7 that Cjay mentioned -

Barnes nearly joined us but seemingly preferred to stay in the midlands - probably a sensible decision on his part given the loan is only until January so why move house etc (don't know if he is married/girlfriend/kids etc) when it is just a short term loan. Nothing we can do there and possibly because of how close we cam to signing him we may have missed out on others in the same position whilst pursuing him.

Mount - Presumably the fact Lampard is in charge at Derby played a big part and may even have been the only reason Chelsea let him go out on loan (as a favour to Lampard). Also worth noting that a winger we appeared keen on signing (forget the name think it was from Brentford) chose Derby over us citing Lampard as the main reason. Despite Lampard's lack of managerial experience he has the pulling power that Bielsa originally in this country seemed to lack - would be interesting to see how many young players would be interested now given how much Bielsa has improved the likes of Phillips.

Gayle - No chance that we could get Gayle as he is part of a loan swap involving WBA and Newcastle. Newcastle seem to view Gayle as a championship player only (seems he is the new Nugent, Rhodes etc) and wanted WBA's Salomon Rondon instead for the season (with presumably WBA not wanting to sell him in the hope they get promoted and they view Rondon as a premiership class player).

Abraham - So given we signed Bamford for £7m to £10m who was only warming the bench then where would Tammy Abraham have fitted in? I am sure if we had not signed Bamford and got Abraham instead on loan then a lot of people would have been slagging off the board for not actually buying players (as it would have meant Douglas was the only signing). Yes a decent player but if we had signed him and played him then where would it have left Roofe and Bamford? Put simply a good player but in a position we had no need to make a further signing.

Besic - Good reputation but the club has Phillips doing well in the defensive midfield role and Forshaw able to play there as well. Not sure Besic would be an upgrade but again if picked it would be at the expense of one of our players and presumably no option to buy.

Hector & Norwood - Similar to Besic really.

It makes me think Bielsa's wanted outfield players in Baker, Harrison and Brown that would be happy to be squad players so that he could develop players at the club and simply add competition rather than stunting the progress of players at our club. It also seemed that we weren't expecting to do as well as we have so far - promotion the aim for next season and a such maybe that played a part in the loan signings as the emphasis was more on seeing who was good enough for next season.

Now don't get me wrong I would have been delighted if say we had signed Foden on loan from City but apart from that I don't think any of the other players available were that much better than the ones we have that it would have been worth the loss of a Roofe or Phillips for a season.
Still prefer any of the players mentioned above than the ones we signed up. We dropped points in our last few games because our back-up are not as proficient as Hernandez & Roofe. We also conceded two points as we didn't have one big decent CB available down at Swansea which allowed McBurnnie time & space to bully us. We've done very well to stay in the top three, if we had the necessary quality back-up we'd probably still be top of the table now.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:48 pm

You may prefer them but by and large they were not available to us and certainly not just to play second fiddle to our players. Yes having Abraham would have been nice but can't really see him coming here to be 3rd choice in case of injury instead of being a starter at Villa.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:43 pm

I firmly believe that all those players were available to us at a price.

Mason Mount for example we dont know if it was a Derby only thing, it may have been but given they out bid us for Jozefzoon its entirely possible that they would have offered Mount a better package then us.

Besic- Nobody will ever convince me that Phillips is a better player at the moment. Had we offered a decent package would he have chosen us over Boro? We dont know but i bet we didn't even try.

Gayle and Abraham are better strikers then Roofe and probably Bamford to, certainly Gayle is. Could Newcastle have been tempted, well everyone has a price.

I didnt like that we were apparently after back ups for so many positions.

If that was what Bielsa wanted then fair enough I disagree on that.

But given we know he didnt want Vieira sold i doubt that he came in and said "yep the squads fine just needs padding out".

If you want quality you pay for it.

If we had wanted Besic, Mount etc i firmly believe we could have had them had we paid the money.

Its clear from our loans with the possible exception of Izzy Brown that we didnt go for the best players available, we went for the ones more willing to not necessarily be guaranteed football.

Is our squad so loaded with quality that looking for that sort of player was sensible? No not for me.

Bielsa has done wonders with what he has available.

But the loans were squad fillers, players with potential but not so highly rated they would cost a premium and there parent clubs would demand they were guaranteed 1st team football.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Funny how the majority of quality players are unavailable to us

I keep forgetting the likes of Derby, Villa, Sheff Wed, Boro, Brentford, Brum, Forest, etc are bigger than us :roll:

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:19 am

I'm glad that our best players aren't loans. How do you build a squad on loans? Look at Villa, they weren't for short termism and loans, now they have to rebuild again, again their best players look like being loans. Barnes will be recalled in January, maybe Gayle too if Newcastle are still struggling, so that puts WBA two key players down. Take away our loans, would we miss them? Nope.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:19 am

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:09 pm
Funny how the majority of quality players are unavailable to us

I keep forgetting the likes of Derby, Villa, Sheff Wed, Boro, Brentford, Brum, Forest, etc are bigger than us :roll:
What players did we miss out to them for?

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:19 am
What players did we miss out to them for?
Cjay mentioned a few in his post above that I doubt we even considered as we tend to go for loan signings who are no better than our very own U23 players

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:03 pm

1964white wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am
Cjay mentioned a few in his post above that I doubt we even considered as we tend to go for loan signings who are no better than our very own U23 players
Unless we bid for them, how did we miss out on them? Mount would be on the bench if he was here, so not sure what we're missing. Again we play one up top, so where would Abraham fit? He waits for a tap in so not sure what he would even bring, certainly not what Roofe brings anyway.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:07 pm

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:19 am
I'm glad that our best players aren't loans. How do you build a squad on loans? Look at Villa, they weren't for short termism and loans, now they have to rebuild again, again their best players look like being loans. Barnes will be recalled in January, maybe Gayle too if Newcastle are still struggling, so that puts WBA two key players down. Take away our loans, would we miss them? Nope.
We have been building a squad for years, where has that got us?

Often the best players teams have are loans, and they have gotten up because of it.

Diogo Jota, Willy Boly, Mitrovic, Adel Taarabt, Helder Costa, Leo Bonatini,

In this league you do need to make the best use of the loan market imo.

"take away our loans, would we miss them" . . . . . .Well no, then what was the point in signing them?

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:10 pm

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:03 pm
Unless we bid for them, how did we miss out on them? Mount would be on the bench if he was here, so not sure what we're missing. Again we play one up top, so where would Abraham fit? He waits for a tap in so not sure what he would even bring, certainly not what Roofe brings anyway.
We should have been in for them was my point, instead of signing players who arent that good and just can pad out the squad.

Mount and Barnes would both be in the first 11 imo, as would Gayle, as would Besic.

We are relying on Bielsa and his coaching rather then bringing in quality in depth.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:13 pm

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:10 pm
We should have been in for them was my point, instead of signing players who arent that good and just can pad out the squad.

Mount and Barnes would both be in the first 11 imo, as would Gayle, as would Besic.

We are relying on Bielsa and his coaching rather then bringing in quality in depth.
We did go in for Barnes, he chose West Brom. Mount would be on the bench behind Saiz, he didn't do anything against us tbh, he stands out at Derby as they have a weaker team. Gayle wasn't available, he only went West Brom as they sold Rondon as part of the deal. Newcastle wanted £20m for Gayle, we don't have that kind of money.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by SG90 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:15 pm

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:07 pm
We have been building a squad for years, where has that got us?

Often the best players teams have are loans, and they have gotten up because of it.

Diogo Jota, Willy Boly, Mitrovic, Adel Taarabt, Helder Costa, Leo Bonatini,

In this league you do need to make the best use of the loan market imo.

"take away our loans, would we miss them" . . . . . .Well no, then what was the point in signing them?
The 4 Wolves players were because of Mendes, so not really comparable or fair. Fulham had parachute payments which allowed them to pay all of Mitrovic's wages, £70k a week. We simply can't afford that. Taarabt wasn't on loan, he was £1m but we had Bates then who wouldn't pay a transfer fee.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:25 pm

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:13 pm
We did go in for Barnes, he chose West Brom. Mount would be on the bench behind Saiz, he didn't do anything against us tbh, he stands out at Derby as they have a weaker team. Gayle wasn't available, he only went West Brom as they sold Rondon as part of the deal. Newcastle wanted £20m for Gayle, we don't have that kind of money.
If Barnes got far enough to pick a squad number i refuse to believe we couldn't push it through.

Mount is a better player then Saiz imo, i think Saiz is overrated, said that for ages.

Newcastle were open to loaning out Gayle at a price apparently, the Rondon one made sense for Newcastle but had we offered them say £5mil up front with say 10mil option to buy then whose to say they wouldn't have accepted that?

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:34 pm

SG90 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:15 pm
The 4 Wolves players were because of Mendes, so not really comparable or fair. Fulham had parachute payments which allowed them to pay all of Mitrovic's wages, £70k a week. We simply can't afford that. Taarabt wasn't on loan, he was £1m but we had Bates then who wouldn't pay a transfer fee.
He was on loan originally then QPR signed him permanently, QPR could have signed him at any time during his initial loan spell just they couldn't afford it.

We have no such chance with Harrison for example, Izzy Brown would cost far to much. We are loaning players either not good enough or well put of our price range.

True on the Wolves lot tbf, ive lost the original point of this thread :lol:

It was about signing players just to pad out the squad with no option to buy.

I read Mitrovic had a loan fee of about 600k and half his wages.

No option to buy but clearly a class player.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:24 pm

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:10 pm
We should have been in for them was my point, instead of signing players who arent that good and just can pad out the squad.

Mount and Barnes would both be in the first 11 imo, as would Gayle, as would Besic.

We are relying on Bielsa and his coaching rather then bringing in quality in depth.
We should have gone in for Messi and Ronaldo too but like I pointed out already several of the players listed were never going to come to us. The only reason Gayle is at WBA is because Newcastle wanted Rondon and wisely WBA wanted Gayle who they know is proven at this level but whom Newcastle see as not premiership class (not sure Rondon is personally but there you go). It suited all parties as WBA didn't have to sell Rondon and presumably he will play for them again if they get promoted. Barnes we tried to sign but short of relocating the club there doesn't seem much else we could have done. Mount, a midfielder, wanting to go to a club managed by a midfielder he has probably admired at close quarters for several years - I just can't see finances playing any part in that. Maybe a closer decision for him if he had the choice again given how Bielsa has improved players so far.

I do think that a lot of potential loan players would have not had a clue who Bielsa was or really though he could improve them. I do think that such has been Bielsa's impact so far that we would now be a much more desirable destination for loan players than we were in the summer.

We have what we have. If for example Harrison had gone to another club and all we had to judge him by was the highlights of games we would probably be saying what an amazing player and why didn't we get him. Let's judge the players at the end of the season as several players, be they for us or other teams, start well then fade whereas others start slowly and then get better as they acclimatise to playing regularly.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:30 pm

Cjay wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:34 pm
We have no such chance with Harrison for example, Izzy Brown would cost far to much. We are loaning players either not good enough or well put of our price range.
If we got promoted then we could easily afford both of the 2 mentioned. Same with Mooy at Huddersfield - they had no deal to buy but because they got promoted they were able to afford £10m (without being disrespectful they probably wouldn't have been able to afford £2m if they hadn't been promoted). City had seen him playing for a year and presumably thought he was decent but never going to get into their side. Same could easily happen with Harrison who will have to really come on leaps and bounds to get into City's first team squad yet could be a great player for a newly promoted club. Likewise Brown wouldn't appear to be close to Chelsea's first team squad so whilst we couldn't afford to buy either now if we got promoted and they'd impressed than I doubt we'd have any problem signing them.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:38 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:30 pm
If we got promoted then we could easily afford both of the 2 mentioned. Same with Mooy at Huddersfield - they had no deal to buy but because they got promoted they were able to afford £10m (without being disrespectful they probably wouldn't have been able to afford £2m if they hadn't been promoted). City had seen him playing for a year and presumably thought he was decent but never going to get into their side. Same could easily happen with Harrison who will have to really come on leaps and bounds to get into City's first team squad yet could be a great player for a newly promoted club. Likewise Brown wouldn't appear to be close to Chelsea's first team squad so whilst we couldn't afford to buy either now if we got promoted and they'd impressed than I doubt we'd have any problem signing them.
Chelsea & Man City will be looking to offload Brown & Harrison as they are not good enough for the prem. My god I hope our sights are higher than these two if we are promoted !

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:51 pm

weasel wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:24 pm
We should have gone in for Messi and Ronaldo too but like I pointed out already several of the players listed were never going to come to us. The only reason Gayle is at WBA is because Newcastle wanted Rondon and wisely WBA wanted Gayle who they know is proven at this level but whom Newcastle see as not premiership class (not sure Rondon is personally but there you go). It suited all parties as WBA didn't have to sell Rondon and presumably he will play for them again if they get promoted. Barnes we tried to sign but short of relocating the club there doesn't seem much else we could have done. Mount, a midfielder, wanting to go to a club managed by a midfielder he has probably admired at close quarters for several years - I just can't see finances playing any part in that. Maybe a closer decision for him if he had the choice again given how Bielsa has improved players so far.

I do think that a lot of potential loan players would have not had a clue who Bielsa was or really though he could improve them. I do think that such has been Bielsa's impact so far that we would now be a much more desirable destination for loan players than we were in the summer.

We have what we have. If for example Harrison had gone to another club and all we had to judge him by was the highlights of games we would probably be saying what an amazing player and why didn't we get him. Let's judge the players at the end of the season as several players, be they for us or other teams, start well then fade whereas others start slowly and then get better as they acclimatise to playing regularly.
I think we shall have to disagree, in life money talks, same in football. Mount, Gayle, Barnes etc were not wanted at there parent clubs clearly, they were there to be loaned.

Barnes went on loan to Barnsley last season so he cant be that fussed, Mount perhaps right tbf, the Lampard factor probably his idol, Gayle wasnt wanted at Newcastle, they wanted rid ( had this told to me by Newcastle fans i know), either on loan but preferably permanently. But either way it would cost, either a substantial loan fee and a good portion of his wages or a huge price tag.

So certainly for two of them i do think money would have made a difference.

We know Harrison spoke to Pep about Bielsa, it is unfortunate that the average English 20 year old footballer isnt going to be as clued up on Bielsa as say South America or Spain.

Understand your point on Harrison, but i dont think we would lol, ive been quite kind to him for ratings but he has done ok at best.

I can just see what will happen (hopefully not) but come Xmas if we dip in form again and have the same sort of injury problems people wont be so patient and will be blaming the recruitment average loans etc.

Happy to judge at the end of the season but we may not have Bielsa for long, he isnt known for staying long, we should have provided him with better resources imo.

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