Loan Signings

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Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:15 pm

We made 4 in the summer.

Lewis Baker, Jamal Blackman, Jack Harrison and Izzy Brown.

Financially its hard to know what that will cost us.

Baker apparently took a "significant" wage cut to join, thats nice but he is rumoured to be on £40k a week so even 50% is 20k a week.

Jack Harrison is reported to be on between £30-50k a week, so just 50% of that would cost us £15-25k a week.

Blackman and Brown arent so much, Blackman is on about £12k a week and Izzy Brown doesnt cost us a penny until he is fit and playing.

But Blackman and Baker clearly arent players Bielsa sees as anymore then squad fillers.

Harrison has talent but is hardly setting the league on fire.

And Izzy Brown wont kick a ball till 2019, which makes signing him at all pointless.

I really dont get the Brown deal, yes it avoids competition in January for him, but he isnt Lionel Messi, wouldn't it have made more sense to get someone in for the now? Brown may not be the same player anyway.

Nasty injury like that, he may be match fit by January, but it could be months after till he regains any sort of form and then loan ends.

None of those are "loan to buys" there all just straight loans which i dont like anyways.

Imo if you have to do straight loans then the players need to be of real quality.

Mitrovic for Fulham last season.
Barnes and Gayle for WBA.
Snodgrass for Villa
Abraham for Villa etc

Those sort of loans where the players are proven quality but out of your price range.

We havent done that.

They all may come good as the season goes on of course, Harrison has shown glimpses.

But i think back to when Radz had his Wolves rant, one of the things he alluded to was his "relationships with top clubs".

Did Radz use those relationships with Chelsea in order to validate his comments but fail to get the required quality?

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by leic white 63 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:07 pm

i honestly believe izzy brown will do some good for us. a very good player in this league. looks like being a naturally fit lad to me so fingers crossed hopefully he be back sooner than some may think. dont think we pay anything untill he plays anyways so worth the gamble in my eyes.
not been overly impressed with the others , cheap cover options imo but still early days to make there mark.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:09 pm

Told you in the summer we do our business totally on the cheap & you have to question the validity of our medicals

Blackman, Baker & Harrison are average at best, Brown maybe ready made fit for Chelsea to loan out to another club next summer at our expense

God knows who'll we'll bring in the January window, I won't hold my breath !

What we have is what we've got & will just have to make do.

Just hope the lack of proper ambition doesn't come back to haunt us !

We can only hope for the best & a bit of luck Cjay.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:20 pm

leic white 63 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:07 pm
i honestly believe izzy brown will do some good for us. a very good player in this league. looks like being a naturally fit lad to me so fingers crossed hopefully he be back sooner than some may think. dont think we pay anything untill he plays anyways so worth the gamble in my eyes.
not been overly impressed with the others , cheap cover options imo but still early days to make there mark.
Izzy Brown is a very good player but whether he can find his top form come the final months of the season is open to conjecture

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by leic white 63 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:12 pm

1964white wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:20 pm
Izzy Brown is a very good player but whether he can find his top form come the final months of the season is open to conjecture
yes agreed.
also for me got to speculate to accumulate in jan but like you 64 im not holding my breath.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:47 pm

The Izzy Brown deal makes a lot of sense for me given that Bielsa likes to have players get used to his style and way of playing before he selects them. As such even if Brown isn't yet training fully he will still be able to watch the training sessions and get a head start in what he is expected to do. As such when he is up to full fitness he shouldn't then need a few weeks getting used to the tactics as he would if we signed him in January, also if he is fit prior to the window opening then much better to have him here and being available to play then us and him having to wait for the transfer window to open before we could sign him.
Obviously there will be questions to how well he can recover etc but if he does then we have a player, even if for just a couple of months, that knows the championship, knows the pressure of a promotion campaign and has also played at a higher level. I really don't see any downside for us given we are not paying wages until he is able to play.

Baker, Blackman and Harrison have been a bit disappointing so far but perhaps we have all been guilty of under appreciating how good our players are should be proud of the fact that they have been able to keep their shirts by merit. Harrison certainly looks the pick so far and the experience he has picked up playing for us so far could be invaluable if he is heavily involved later in the season - definitely looks like he could be a very good player.

The great signings by other clubs are not as straightforward. Villa were able to afford Snodgrass last year due to parachute payments. Gayle has only joined WBA as there is some sort of 1 year swap deal going on involving Rondon playing for Newcastle on loan from WBA (so in theory WBA have lost a better player) and Barnes would have signed for us, on loan, but wanted to stay closer to his home which is why he stayed in the Midlands.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:57 pm

weasel wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:47 pm
The Izzy Brown deal makes a lot of sense for me given that Bielsa likes to have players get used to his style and way of playing before he selects them. As such even if Brown isn't yet training fully he will still be able to watch the training sessions and get a head start in what he is expected to do. As such when he is up to full fitness he shouldn't then need a few weeks getting used to the tactics as he would if we signed him in January, also if he is fit prior to the window opening then much better to have him here and being available to play then us and him having to wait for the transfer window to open before we could sign him.
Obviously there will be questions to how well he can recover etc but if he does then we have a player, even if for just a couple of months, that knows the championship, knows the pressure of a promotion campaign and has also played at a higher level. I really don't see any downside for us given we are not paying wages until he is able to play.

Baker, Blackman and Harrison have been a bit disappointing so far but perhaps we have all been guilty of under appreciating how good our players are should be proud of the fact that they have been able to keep their shirts by merit. Harrison certainly looks the pick so far and the experience he has picked up playing for us so far could be invaluable if he is heavily involved later in the season - definitely looks like he could be a very good player.

The great signings by other clubs are not as straightforward. Villa were able to afford Snodgrass last year due to parachute payments. Gayle has only joined WBA as there is some sort of 1 year swap deal going on involving Rondon playing for Newcastle on loan from WBA (so in theory WBA have lost a better player) and Barnes would have signed for us, on loan, but wanted to stay closer to his home which is why he stayed in the Midlands.
Understand what your saying abut Brown, on a level it is great business, we pay nothing, he gets to learn the way Bielsa wants to play, he gets to integrate with the squad and come January we hopefully have a very good Championship player ready to go.

But the type of injury is nasty, many players never get back to the level they were at before, and while 12months is usually about right for regaining full fitness, it usually takes a good few months for people to get up to match sharpness from reading.

If he ever does get to the level he was at before there is a real chance he wont be with us anymore.

Its also a bit presumptuous, maybe one of the youth lads will have forced there way into Bielsa's plans by January, Jack Clarke for one, but Jordan Stevens maybe, others, maybe come January Brown wont be needed anyway, but he will be fit and we will be paying for him.

Just seems an odd signing, we arent really in the position where we can afford to be thinking 5 6 7 months down the line, we needed numbers now when we signed Brown.

Hopefully the other 3 will come good, Harrison does have something about him :)

Baker and Blackman, im not so sure, watched them both quite a few times for the u23s, they dont really stand out in the way players of there age should, there not teens anymore i mean Blackman is pushing 25 and Baker is 23.

There past the age imo where they should just be talked about as having potential, they should be comfortably good enough for the u23s, neither of them do look that good there which is worrying.

BPF shouldn't be our number 1 imo, he is ok, he does a decent job, but we should have got someone better then him in August, we didnt.

Not striahgt forward of course, but it was highlighting what i meant, no issue with loans to buy, not keen on loans only, and only in exceptional cases would i think they were ok, if it was someone like Phil FOden or Brahim Diaz for example, or Dwight Gayle, that sort of special talent.

We just seem to be doping Chelsea a favour.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:33 am

Cjay wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:57 pm
Understand what your saying abut Brown, on a level it is great business, we pay nothing, he gets to learn the way Bielsa wants to play, he gets to integrate with the squad and come January we hopefully have a very good Championship player ready to go.

But the type of injury is nasty, many players never get back to the level they were at before, and while 12months is usually about right for regaining full fitness, it usually takes a good few months for people to get up to match sharpness from reading.

If he ever does get to the level he was at before there is a real chance he wont be with us anymore.

Its also a bit presumptuous, maybe one of the youth lads will have forced there way into Bielsa's plans by January, Jack Clarke for one, but Jordan Stevens maybe, others, maybe come January Brown wont be needed anyway, but he will be fit and we will be paying for him.

Just seems an odd signing, we arent really in the position where we can afford to be thinking 5 6 7 months down the line, we needed numbers now when we signed Brown.

Hopefully the other 3 will come good, Harrison does have something about him :)

Baker and Blackman, im not so sure, watched them both quite a few times for the u23s, they dont really stand out in the way players of there age should, there not teens anymore i mean Blackman is pushing 25 and Baker is 23.

There past the age imo where they should just be talked about as having potential, they should be comfortably good enough for the u23s, neither of them do look that good there which is worrying.

BPF shouldn't be our number 1 imo, he is ok, he does a decent job, but we should have got someone better then him in August, we didnt.

Not striahgt forward of course, but it was highlighting what i meant, no issue with loans to buy, not keen on loans only, and only in exceptional cases would i think they were ok, if it was someone like Phil FOden or Brahim Diaz for example, or Dwight Gayle, that sort of special talent.

We just seem to be doping Chelsea a favour.
My sentiments too Cjay

Can anyone see us doing a Fulham signing a player of Mitrovic's calibre in the January window whose goals was the major reason why the Cottagers were promoted ?

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Gandalf » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:41 am

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:33 am
My sentiments too Cjay

Can anyone see us doing a Fulham signing a player of Mitrovic's calibre in the January window whose goals was the major reason why the Cottagers were promoted ?
I suggested that we sign Mitrovic on loan last January. I was told by people on here that he was an expensive troublemaker, who hadn't scored a goal in forever. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:10 am

Gandalf wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:41 am
I suggested that we sign Mitrovic on loan last January. I was told by people on here that he was an expensive troublemaker, who hadn't scored a goal in forever. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Not me, I certainly was touting for us to make a move for Mitrovic

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Chilli D » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:31 am

The games will come thick and fast between now and January 1st and by then we will have a much better idea of whether the squad has enough strength in depth.
More importantly MB will know.
Players will get injured, suspended or lose form which will give others their chance. It's up to them to take it when they get it. At the moment we have just about coped with the recent injury crisis but its almost certain there will be another spate of them at some point.
The squad is undoubtedly smaller than others in the Championship and MB has had to add some of the youngsters to it lately but on the plus side it has given them valuable experience of being part of the first team squad.
The signing of Jamal Blackman was a strange one for me. I would rather we had gone for an experienced keeper with BPF as an adequate back up.
I honestly can't make up my mind about Jack Harrison. He looked good when he first got into the side but some of his recent performances have been poor.
I can't see Baker dislodging Klich or Saiz on ability so it looks like a season of cameo appearances for him.
Only time will tell whether the signing of Izzy Brown was a good one or not. Once he is completely free of his injury he has some way to go to get anywhere near match fit especially fit enough to cope with our high pressing intensity. Mind you once he is up to speed it could be like having a new signing for the last couple of months of the season when others are starting to tire.
The period between now and the January transfer window will have a huge bearing on our season, we will have played everyone once and as long we are still there or thereabouts we will have a realistic shot at automatic promotion.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by paddy parrott » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:54 am

Actually rate Harrison and the other loanees we ok ain't saw that much of 'em. In fact we should I reckon back Bielsa & staff and yes call for a couple of top signings this January.
Over to you Radz and Victor.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by weasel » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:55 am

Cjay wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:57 pm
We just seem to be doing Chelsea a favour.
To be honest it isn't really like we are doing Chelsea, or Man City, a favour unless the players play. Sure we will be paying a bit in wages but for Chelsea and Man City that would be fairly much irrelevant. Cheelsea and City both want their players to play because only them will they know whether thay have a player good enough for them, good enough to sell for a decent fee, or not good enough at all. At present it is simply a case where it is almost a wasted few months for all concerned. However Blackman has championship experience and did well for Sheff Utd last season, until he plays hard to judge and as shown by BPF's 'performances' for York last season it is hard to judge a keeper until they get a run of games. If BPF gets injured then we have a championship experienced keeper to come in. Hard to know who else was available to simply be a back up - would certainly have him ahead of the likes of Lonerghan (last season's back-up) and we all saw with Rachubka how poor a keeper who is happy to be on the bench all season can be when called upon.

Harrison has shown glimpses and as I mentioned earlier as he has gotten more experienced he can hopefully improve in his decision making. Definitely raw potential there and I could see him hitting a purpler patch at some point for us and going on a run of scoring goals - could be very useful as the season reaches its climax (likewise a fit again Brown).

Baker is the only one to really disappoint but so hard to really judge him on the few minutes here and there and the glorified friendlies at U23 level. When judging him it is worth noting how Forshaw has similarly failed to impress when coming on as a sub for a few minutes here and there. Both (especially Forshaw) could have big parts to play if we get injuries/suspensions in midfield.

Another, and possibly more important, point to note is that Bielsa needs to have technically good players to fit into his way of playing better. As we also seem to have targetted British players it considerably narrows down the list of possible players that could be brought in. We can already see some limitations in our team/squad as to which players aren't really comfortable how we play and whilst some may initially flatter to deceive it may be that their limitations will be found out very quickly at which point better technical players, be they loanees or from our youth set-up, may take their place.
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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:22 pm

weasel wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:55 am
To be honest it isn't really like we are doing Chelsea, or Man City, a favour unless the players play. Sure we will be paying a bit in wages but for Chelsea and Man City that would be fairly much irrelevant. Cheelsea and City both want their players to play because only them will they know whether thay have a player good enough for them, good enough to sell for a decent fee, or not good enough at all. At present it is simply a case where it is almost a wasted few months for all concerned. However Blackman has championship experience and did well for Sheff Utd last season, until he plays hard to judge and as shown by BPF's 'performances' for York last season it is hard to judge a keeper until they get a run of games. If BPF gets injured then we have a championship experienced keeper to come in. Hard to know who else was available to simply be a back up - would certainly have him ahead of the likes of Lonerghan (last season's back-up) and we all saw with Rachubka how poor a keeper who is happy to be on the bench all season can be when called upon.

Harrison has shown glimpses and as I mentioned earlier as he has gotten more experienced he can hopefully improve in his decision making. Definitely raw potential there and I could see him hitting a purpler patch at some point for us and going on a run of scoring goals - could be very useful as the season reaches its climax (likewise a fit again Brown).

Baker is the only one to really disappoint but so hard to really judge him on the few minutes here and there and the glorified friendlies at U23 level. When judging him it is worth noting how Forshaw has similarly failed to impress when coming on as a sub for a few minutes here and there. Both (especially Forshaw) could have big parts to play if we get injuries/suspensions in midfield.

Another, and possibly more important, point to note is that Bielsa needs to have technically good players to fit into his way of playing better. As we also seem to have targetted British players it considerably narrows down the list of possible players that could be brought in. We can already see some limitations in our team/squad as to which players aren't really comfortable how we play and whilst some may initially flatter to deceive it may be that their limitations will be found out very quickly at which point better technical players, be they loanees or from our youth set-up, may take their place.
Blackman did do ok for Sheffield United, true, but shouldn't we have been aiming higher then just ok? BPF is clearly Number 1 in Bielsa's mind, thats understandable because Blackman doesnt seem much if better at all. We should have signed someone clearly better then BPF imo. As you say its hard to know who else would have come in as backup, thats disappointing because BPF isnt an exceptional goalie at this level, we should have been looking for an improvement not a backup.

Baker has been at Chelsea long enough for them to know he wont make it for them, they had moved on from him and they had a player they rate far higher then Baker who we could have tried to loan, Mason Mount, that was the target we should have got. It is perhaps unfair to judge Baker but talented players look talented whenever they play, if you put Mount in an u23s game he would stand out.

Harrison seems the best of the bunch and as you say there have been glimpses. But every time ive seen him for the u23s or indeed the other day vs Brentford he was outshone by Jack Clarke, much prefer we gave our own a chance then developed Manchester Cities lads.

The main frustration is loans only for me, none of them seem of the sort of class where a loan only is acceptable.

Id rather see Jack Clarke in for Harrison, Jordan Stevens in for Baker, Miazek in for Blackman, i dont see these loans as good enough to justify sidelining our own youngsters for.

Hopefully as the season goes on they will all show there worth, same as Izzy Brown when/if he returns.

But the frustrating bit imo as i say, straight loans should make an instant impact.

Mount, Gayle, Abraham, Barnes, Besic, Norwood, Hector etc.

If you must do straight loans then they have to be worth it from the start.

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:25 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:22 pm
.
Mount, Gayle, Abraham, Barnes, Besic, Norwood, Hector etc.
I suspect we didn't even consider those more high profile loanees all doing well for their new clubs whilst our loan signings struggle to make an impact in our U23's let alone the first team :(

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Cjay » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:46 pm

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:25 pm
I suspect we didn't even consider those more high profile loanees all doing well for their new clubs whilst our loan signings struggle to make an impact in our U23's let alone the first team :(
We apparently were far down the line with Harvey Barnes.

He'd even picked a squad number.

Dunno what happened, apparently he choose to stay in the Midlands but i wonder if more money could have persuaded him?

If he got far enough to have a medical then there had to have been genuine interest shirley.

Should have been in for Mason Mount, unless Chelsea refused to let us have him in which case we shouldn't have just settled for Baker.

Besic was the one i really wanted :(

Would have seen your mate taking his rightful place on the bench :)

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by Newport white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:15 pm

I disagree with most people with Baker, in the 2 games where he’s had more than just a couple of minutes (Swansea and Brentford) he has done well, he gets into decent goal scoring positions and I recon with a decent run of games ( if injury suspension or poor form opens the door for him ) he could prove to be more than useful, he must have something about him to be on Chelsea’s books and Beilsa will definitely get the best out of him

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:36 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:46 pm

Should have been in for Mason Mount, unless Chelsea refused to let us have him in which case we shouldn't have just settled for Baker.
Over the years we've always gone for the cheaper options, it appears we still do. Mount was probably going to cost us more in salaries which are rarely disclosed to the fans

We signed Douglas for a snip @ £3m, had he been touted at £5m or above I doubt we'd have pursued him after our first approach

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:41 pm

Cjay wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:46 pm

Would have seen your mate taking his rightful place on the bench :)
A Bosnian international over a future England international eh :-D

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Re: Loan Signings

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:00 pm

Newport white wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:15 pm
I disagree with most people with Baker, in the 2 games where he’s had more than just a couple of minutes (Swansea and Brentford) he has done well, he gets into decent goal scoring positions and I recon with a decent run of games ( if injury suspension or poor form opens the door for him ) he could prove to be more than useful, he must have something about him to be on Chelsea’s books and Beilsa will definitely get the best out of him
I hope you are right about Baker, still unconvinced but may need time.

The big boys do get it wrong with their scattergun approach of signing up so many young players.

We've had a few over the last decade :

Borthwick-Jackson
Scott Wootton
Liam Miller
Danny Pugh
Sanchez Watt
Michael Brown (originally at Man City & played for Spurs)

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