Perspective

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60sUnited
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Re: Perspective

Post by 60sUnited »

I agree with alot of comments on this post. I think that we may just have the 'squad' to overcome our problems or at least try to BUT Bielsa is Bielsa and I am convinced that the team he put out for the first game of the season, if all available, would be the team put out for every game no matter how they performed ! We just cannot win anything with that approach ! Come on Bielsa MANAGE the problems !!
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Re: Perspective

Post by BGwhite »

Cjay wrote: For the entire 2nd half of last season we accepted our deficiencies and waiting patiently for it to sort itself out, we ended up collapsing like no Championship leaders at Xmas have before. We should demand to win every game because thats the mentality the club needs to have, thats what clubs that achieve things think like. The main issue is our deficiencies are the worst kept secret in the world and the reason we didnt get promoted last season.

I fully agree that the side under Bielsa exceeded expectations. But why are we rewarding those players for failure? Thats whats wrong with this club, accepting mediocre and runners up.

Cooper and Ayling, deals dont run out until 2021, why have they had 4 and 5 year new expensive contracts? What have they done to deserve that? Fail.

Dallas, 4 year deal? Why? For finally showing the level of performance he has been lacking for the majority of his old deal. He deserved something for his form.this season, ok give him 1 year with the option of a 2nd.

If players want new deals then earn them, if the owners want promotion then show that sort of ambition.

Perspective is fine but after last seasons collapse i find it hard to take a balanced view, i dont actually think about it now often because it annoys me.
Just hope we ain't bloody top at Xmas this year !

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Re: Perspective

Post by Oscar »

weasel wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:07 pm Some fans seem to expect us to win every single game and win them comfortably too. Yet the same fans will lay into all the players after a defeat claiming they aren't good enough - yet still expect those players to win every game with ease. My point was that even a ridiculously good Juventus team, containing several world class players and indeed some players who not only had just won the Serie A title but also the World Cup managed to lose 4 times to teams in Series B. They would have been expected to win every match 5 or 6 nil (at least) such was the gulf in class between their players and the opposition players yet managed to lose 4 times.

We are nowhere near as far ahead of other teams ability wise as that Juventus team was. We have several starting players that would probably just get on the bench at some of our rival clubs. We have a team that under the guidance of Bielsa is far exceeding the level it should. Last year Derby had 3 players that are now all playing, and doing well, in the premiership and yet we outclassed them due to Bielsa in 3 1/2 out of 4 matches. We have our deficiencies but we have to learn to accept those and stop expecting to win every single match. If we were the equivalence of that Juventus side playing in Serie B then yes expect to win every game but we are not.
It's very true mate at any level any team is going to have off days Man City have had 2 big off days inside the first 8 games of the season.

I certainly don't expect us to win every game and although we haven't hit the heights of last season performance wise, I am still very much enjoying watching us play and we've shown quality all in all over the first 11 games. Although the last 3 games have shown a worrying pattern against Charlton and Millwall we've really struggled to create against two average mid table teams and creativity has never been an issue under Bielsa up until the last few weeks even as bad as the last 4-5 games of last year were we still created chance after chance. Yes Charlton and Millwall sat back but against West Brom, the goal we scored was an own goal and Johnstone top class double save aside we didn't really create much that night either and that was a far more open game than Charlton and Millwall, so maybe we can't write this off as a case of the opposition 'parking the bus'. I emphasise maybe because 3 games is still a small sample size in the grand scheme of things and our magician and the most creative player in the league hasn't been available to us. Even though he has been average by his standards this season his injury was always going to effect us somewhere down the line these last 3 games. At the same time though Pablo's return won't make all our problems go away other players around him have to step up too.

There's no doubt in my mind this squad has the quality to go up it was more good enough for 95% of last season up until the Easter weekend. The bit I highlighted is where I would disagree slightly personally I think the bare minimum this squad should be aiming for is top six considering last season etc Jansson and Roofe are the only real significant players we have lost but I would argue Ben White definitely looks like an upgrade on Jansson and Eddie although debatable as he's played so few minutes is an upgrade/as good as Roofe, personally think he's done really well with his limited chances and made a positive impact almost everytime he has played. We aren't perfect and do have one or two weaknesses but so does every team in the league.

No doubt Bielsa is the main factor behind any past success and any future success, only slight criticism would be team selection from time to time would like to see more rotation and minutes for players like Roberts and Eddie possibly even Clarke too. I don't even want to begin to imagine life without him though, it's not just the excellent results and football the whole culture of the football club has changed. I do believe though the individual performances of large parts of the squad are letting him down particularly the 4 behind Bamford, collectively and individually they aren't doing enough. It's not a case of them not being good enough quite the opposite, they've shown what they can do but at the minute are not getting anywhere near those levels which is why I might come across as particularly critical in Match reports. I am a massive fan of Klich but he's nowhere near his usual levels in any sense. Passing has been average and quality of his shooting well below his usual levels but it's not just Klich many of the squad's performances have dipped. That is something I see as a positive in some ways because we are 5th with many of the squad underperforming, when they do pick up we should only improve further? I don't see that as something to worry about just more of an explanation as to why performance wise we aren't at last years levels imo and haven't built an advantage at the top when we've had opportunities too.

The mentality is the main thing for me that could hold us back as the season goes on, we all know how badly we messed up during the last month of the season on multiple different occasions but the trouble is the same signs are there early this campaign when theoretically there isn't really much pressure on us in terms of size of games. When we fall behind in a game it's virtually game over for so many different reasons players just seem to panic particularly the creative ones and lose patience and start forcing passes resulting in us making it easy for the opposition to stop. I think we've recovered just 4 points from losing positions this calendar year. As well as this when we are level or ahead there's an issue too when things go against us in games: missed chances, penalties etc opportunities to go ahead/further ahead. We do seem to lose our composure as the game goes on and become frustrated. It's been a big feature of our home games dropping 5 points in the last 10-15 minutes of games already. After missed opportunities we seem to get nervous and regret the misses before we've even been made to pay for them if that makes sense? Every home game has been nervy this season even the ones we've won.

I do believe this team is going to be challenging at the top end of the table but if we don't address the issues over freezing in certain situations it will be a similar story to last season. It's easier said than done though, however, if players are showing signs of nerves now what will they be like by next March and April?
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Re: Perspective

Post by Irish Ian »

I never knew what perspective was until Father Ted.
'
"Football is about the people and the players,” he said. “Then there are those who will mingle in the middle: the coaches, executives and journalists. That last group represents the worst part about football" Marcelo Bielsa
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Re: Perspective

Post by Chilli D »

Guys, In my opinion there has been a massive over reaction on here to a game we lost by one goal at a place we always struggle at, having played 75 minutes with 10 men.
I'm as frustrated as anyone on how recent results have gone and Bielsa's stubbornness to change the way we play but the people moaning are the same ones who not long ago were saying "in Bielsa we trust".
Less than a week ago we were beating the only unbeaten side in the league to go back to the top.
Yes we're down to 5th now but that's only because this league is tight and full of teams of the same standard.
Swansea's defeat at home to previously winless Stoke epitomizes what this league is all about.
I bet if you go on their forum this morning their fans are saying much the same "we have no chance of promotion".
The truth of the matter is they do and so do we. I think it will be nip and tuck all the way to the finishing line. We'll need some luck with injuries of course but for now I'm staying positive. I think we'll get 13 points from the next six games which will keep us in the mix.

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Re: Perspective

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60sUnited wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:56 pm Bielsa is Bielsa and I am convinced that the team he put out for the first game of the season, if all available, would be the team put out for every game no matter how they performed ! We just cannot win anything with that approach ! Come on Bielsa MANAGE the problems !!
So you are saying Bielsa should change the team that completely outplayed Bristol City? If I was Bielsa I would have kept that same team barring injuries or players having a few bad games. Bielsa will have analysed the successes and failures of every player from last season and worked out what team could work best together and it has. We haven't had bad performances, Charlton was probably our poorest performance and even then it was a fairly even game that was decided by a fluke goal. And guess what Charlton was the first time Bielsa had to really deviate from his preferred starting line up due to Pablo being injured and Costa starting. It showed why Bielsa hadn't been starting Costa as he hadn't quite turned Costa into the cog to fit his machine yet. It also saw Eddie introduce at half time alongside Bamford and a change in our shape and guess what it didn't really work. So our worst performance saw Bielsa have to change the starting line up and have to later change the shape/formation. Coincidence?

The other 2 defeats can be written off to a large degree. Swansea match we put in a decent performance without a cutting edge. Millwall it is hard to judge given the circumstances determined by the referee.
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Re: Perspective

Post by leic white 63 »

weasel wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:36 am So you are saying Bielsa should change the team that completely outplayed Bristol City? If I was Bielsa I would have kept that same team barring injuries or players having a few bad games. Bielsa will have analysed the successes and failures of every player from last season and worked out what team could work best together and it has. We haven't had bad performances, Charlton was probably our poorest performance and even then it was a fairly even game that was decided by a fluke goal. And guess what Charlton was the first time Bielsa had to really deviate from his preferred starting line up due to Pablo being injured and Costa starting. It showed why Bielsa hadn't been starting Costa as he hadn't quite turned Costa into the cog to fit his machine yet. It also saw Eddie introduce at half time alongside Bamford and a change in our shape and guess what it didn't really work. So our worst performance saw Bielsa have to change the starting line up and have to later change the shape/formation. Coincidence?

The other 2 defeats can be written off to a large degree. Swansea match we put in a decent performance without a cutting edge. Millwall it is hard to judge given the circumstances determined by the referee.
the charlton goal wasn't no fluke , i'd would put it down to poor goalkeeping.
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Re: Perspective

Post by 1964white »

Chilli D wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:33 am Guys, In my opinion there has been a massive over reaction on here to a game we lost by one goal at a place we always struggle at, having played 75 minutes with 10 men.
I'm as frustrated as anyone on how recent results have gone and Bielsa's stubbornness to change the way we play but the people moaning are the same ones who not long ago were saying "in Bielsa we trust".
Less than a week ago we were beating the only unbeaten side in the league to go back to the top.
Yes we're down to 5th now but that's only because this league is tight and full of teams of the same standard.
Swansea's defeat at home to previously winless Stoke epitomizes what this league is all about.
I bet if you go on their forum this morning their fans are saying much the same "we have no chance of promotion".
The truth of the matter is they do and so do we. I think it will be nip and tuck all the way to the finishing line. We'll need some luck with injuries of course but for now I'm staying positive. I think we'll get 13 points from the next six games which will keep us in the mix.

Chilli
Still doesn't getaway from the fact we were poor at Charlton & Millwall, places we should be picking up points Chilli. Lose another 8 or 9 games against this type of opposition & we won't be going up come the end season, quite honestly we wouldn't deserve promotion
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Re: Perspective

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weasel wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:36 am So you are saying Bielsa should change the team that completely outplayed Bristol City? If I was Bielsa I would have kept that same team barring injuries or players having a few bad games. Bielsa will have analysed the successes and failures of every player from last season and worked out what team could work best together and it has. We haven't had bad performances, Charlton was probably our poorest performance and even then it was a fairly even game that was decided by a fluke goal. And guess what Charlton was the first time Bielsa had to really deviate from his preferred starting line up due to Pablo being injured and Costa starting. It showed why Bielsa hadn't been starting Costa as he hadn't quite turned Costa into the cog to fit his machine yet. It also saw Eddie introduce at half time alongside Bamford and a change in our shape and guess what it didn't really work. So our worst performance saw Bielsa have to change the starting line up and have to later change the shape/formation. Coincidence?

The other 2 defeats can be written off to a large degree. Swansea match we put in a decent performance without a cutting edge. Millwall it is hard to judge given the circumstances determined by the referee
We are getting good at 'writing off' defeats......!
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Re: Perspective

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60sUnited wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:58 am We are getting good at writing off defeats
What I mean by writing off defeats is that sometimes defeats just happen because of bad luck or bad refereeing. You can play well and lose, you can play poorly and snatch a win. Take our draw with Derby and after the final whistle blew who would have been the happier fans? The Derby fans would have been. But when you sit down and analyse it after emotions settle down then if I was a Derby fan I would be extremely worried at how awful they played in that match and how comprehensively they failed for the vast majority of the match and had a manager that had no clue in how to stop the relentless tide of pressure. As a Leeds fan after you get over the initial disappointment you have to simply be proud of how great the team played, even the neutral commentator was saying he had never seen a team so comprehensively dominate.

If in any of our 3 defeats we had played as badly as we made Derby look then I would be worried. But as it is there isn't that much wrong at the moment performance wise and so we have to hope that results soon start to match the performances on a more regular basis.
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Re: Perspective

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1964white wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:56 am Still doesn't getaway from the fact we were poor at Charlton & Millwall, places we should be picking up points Chilli. Lose another 8 or 9 games against this type of opposition & we won't be going up come the end season, quite honestly we wouldn't deserve promotion
Very true. The league doesn't lie. That's true at all levels. The most consistent teams will always get promoted.
But we haven't lost those games yet so I'm going to stay positive for now.
We have still conceded the least amount of goals in the division, we just need to improve our goals per chances created ratio.
Bamford just needs one to go in off his knee, arse, anything.
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Re: Perspective

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1964white wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:56 am Still doesn't getaway from the fact we were poor at Charlton & Millwall, places we should be picking up points Chilli. Lose another 8 or 9 games against this type of opposition & we won't be going up come the end season, quite honestly we wouldn't deserve promotion
Hard to say we were poor against Millwall given that for 75 minutes we had a man disadvantage and had to chase a goal. Poor would have been falling to pieces after the unjust setback and losing by 3 or 4. We could only real judge the performance if it was 11v11 for the full match.

Definitely flat against Charlton but there will always be some matches across a season where everyone plays below par.
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Re: Perspective

Post by Mick Jones shoulder »

Poor in the fact we had the majority of possession and created jack s**t. Come on men I want us to succeed as much as anyone but my head isn't buried in sand. 👍
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Re: Perspective

Post by Mick Jones shoulder »

And just to put that post in perspective, when we win, play we'll and score goals I quite happily come on and say so. 🤔
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Re: Perspective

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Mick Jones shoulder wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:42 pm And just to put that post in perspective, when we win, play we'll and score goals I quite happily come on and say so. 🤔
And when we lose, play sh*t and concede a bucketload of goals I will quite angrily come on and say so.
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Re: Perspective

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And when we win but it was so obviously totally against the run of play and the ref gave us a penalty which was so blatantly the wrong decision I will gladly come on here pissing myself laughing !...but we all know that's never going to happen !

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Re: Perspective

Post by Mick Jones shoulder »

We obviously weren't that good we lost🤔. I have watched every game bar the Brentford game. When we are good it's a pleasure to watch infact it's still good to watch when we don't win. I've supported Leeds since the early 70"s I've seen good and bad bud but a wins a win and a failure is exactly that. Mitigating circumstances this week with the pen and sending off but we created nothing in reality. Or did we? Don't buy the refs are bent nonsense that one on Saturday was gash but it even outs over the season. Let's face it play in London and expect nothing as 64 has said. Hope we start hitting the back of the net soon though.
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Re: Perspective

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Mick Jones shoulder wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:14 pm Let's face it play in London and expect nothing as 64 has said. Hope we start hitting the back of net so though.
I'm beginning to wonder if long coach journey's upset the equilibrium of our players. LUFC's luxury coach does not arrive at grounds in much time before the supporters coaches in fact we've been at stadiums before the team bus on some occasions due to heavy traffic.

As a fan I'm not a lover of travelling on a coach as I use to feel a little travel sickness several years ago, always equipped with my medicinal box should I feel slightly under the weather
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Re: Perspective

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I must admit the last thing I would want to do before playing football would be a coach journey.

You would have thought they'd go down the night before, stay at a hotel, have a leisurely breakfast and then go the ground. Is this not the case?
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Re: Perspective

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Thats exactly what i thought they would do. Surely they're not travelling down the same day as the game. If they are then that is just plain silly.

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