What another shambles!

[danhirons]

seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...

[Sara]

[1964white]

Some great answers there Sara

[1964white]

seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...

Always thought the Germans were tougher than to be dictated by Brussels, maybe not!

Brits wanting out of the EU must be a hard pill to swallow for the nation you reside in Dan

Majority of us on our little island want our own independence, nothing wrong with that.

Don't worry about us outing the EU, plenty of trade available with America, Japan, China, etc

Lets have our democracy back in Great Britain

[lufc1304]

Sara, for clarity, I was including myself amongst those who did not understand the full implications of what remaining or leaving entailed. If you were totally clued up, then I apologise, but it is still my view that a sizeable number of the electorate based their decision on what they were being told by both campaigns. Leave lied, and admitted they did, and the remain campaign had us living in caves within 6 months. You may have a different view, that's fine, but I refute the suggestion that I am elitist in my view. I'm working class from NI, elistist I am not. But it remains my opinion that we are all wiser as to what leaving and remaining entails now than we were in 2016, and should have a voice in how the UK moves forward.

[hector]

Here is part of Fat Dave's speech when he anounced that there was going to be a referendum....

Cameron.jpg (92.56 KiB) Viewed 3004 times

[1964white]

Here is part of Fat Dave's speech when he anounced that there was going to be a referendum....



Cameron.jpg

Cameron has a lot to answer for !

[The Subhuman]

seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...

Isn't that like saying to the wife, I want to work out the terms of a divorce just in case I want a divorce in the future. Plus who is qualified to make the decision if it's not the people?

[Sara]

Sara, for clarity, I was including myself amongst those who did not understand the full implications of what remaining or leaving entailed. If you were totally clued up, then I apologise, but it is still my view that a sizeable number of the electorate based their decision on what they were being told by both campaigns. Leave lied, and admitted they did, and the remain campaign had us living in caves within 6 months. You may have a different view, that's fine, but I refute the suggestion that I am elitist in my view. I'm working class from NI, elistist I am not. But it remains my opinion that we are all wiser as to what leaving and remaining entails now than we were in 2016, and should have a voice in how the UK moves forward.

Yes, sorry, it was probably a bit strong calling you elitist, but it is a sentiment I hear repeatedly from people who generally see themselves as socially progressive; it amounts to saying that the working class are too thick to make this sort of decision because they're all ignorant racists.

Not only is it untrue, but even if it were, that is democracy; thick people whose views we don't like are as entitled to their vote as anyone else.

Making them vote again in the hope they'll get it right a second time around is not how it works.

[lufc1304]

Yes, sorry, it was probably a bit strong calling you elitist, but it is a sentiment I hear repeatedly from people who generally see themselves as socially progressive; it amounts to saying that the working class are too thick to make this sort of decision because they're all ignorant racists.

Not only is it untrue, but even if it were, that is democracy; thick people whose views we don't like are as entitled to their vote as anyone else.

Making them vote again in the hope they'll get it right a second time around is not how it works.

Apology accepted, thank you. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I could have. I wasn't suggesting that folk were too thick to grasp what the implications were (though undoubtedly some were), it was more the fact that very few actually knew how this would pan out, whether in or out. The govt admitted it hadn't carried out any impact assessments and David Davis said Brexit could be sorted out in an afternoon over tea and sandwiches! When those tasked with delivering the withdrawal didn't know what would happen, it's not a huge leap to suggest that most ordinary folk didn't either. 3 years on, we are all a lot wiser as to the potential impact of leaving, that's why I favour a second referendum. Not to circumvent democracy or some idea that we keep voting until we get the answer we want, but to allow people to make an informed decision. If the majority still want out, then they do so with their eyes wide open, and no-one can cry foul. I understand there are many who don't agree with me, but that's ok, it is just my opinion.

[Sara]

Apology accepted, thank you. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I could have. I wasn't suggesting that folk were too thick to grasp what the implications were (though undoubtedly some were), it was more the fact that very few actually knew how this would pan out, whether in or out. The govt admitted it hadn't carried out any impact assessments and David Davis said Brexit could be sorted out in an afternoon over tea and sandwiches! When those tasked with delivering the withdrawal didn't know what would happen, it's not a huge leap to suggest that most ordinary folk didn't either. 3 years on, we are all a lot wiser as to the potential impact of leaving, that's why I favour a second referendum. Not to circumvent democracy or some idea that we keep voting until we get the answer we want, but to allow people to make an informed decision. If the majority still want out, then they do so with their eyes wide open, and no-one can cry foul. I understand there are many who don't agree with me, but that's ok, it is just my opinion.

I disagree with the basic premise that the decision should have been made according to an accurate forecast of future economic eventualities. Not only is such a thing not possible, and open to manipulation, as we have seen, but I don't think it is the best, or even a necessary, criteria.

Most people voted leave on the issue of sovereignty. Whatever the scope of their understanding of the details, there is a broad principle that key decisions which affect our lives should be made by people, and in a way, which is accountable to us. The EU is demonstrably anti democratic, in its constitution, its structures, its policies, and its trajectory over the last 40 years. Nothing that has occurred since the referendum has allayed that concern; in fact, quite the opposite.

Do you want to be ruled by an authoritarian superstate?

No.

You might be a bit worse off...

Still no.

We will do our utmost to frustrate your will and make you suffer.

Bye then.

[dezzy]

Really well spoken, agree with a lot of what you say and what I don’t I wouldn’t argue with

[hector]

That is so patronising that I am lost for words!!!!!!!!!

[Gurj]

I’m really sorry for any of you that voted for Brexit. I’m sure you’re mostly all good folk. You were lied to, it can happen to anyone under these circumstances and after years of anti European and immigration propaganda.

Those that still feel the same way and still back leave despite everything we now know after 3 years... I find bizarre. Those that still back the likes of Johnson, JRM etc, I’ll never understand it, I wish I did so I could help.

Turkeys voting for Christmas...

That been said. I love you for being Leeds. We will always have that in common.
MOT

Wholeheartedly agree with every single sentiment

[The Subhuman]

I f**king don't..I'm with Hector, I've just been talked down to like a special needs child..Talk about holier than thou attitude..

[Sara]

I hate what they have done to you.

You're the one who's brainwashed, if you think our future wellbeing lies with a corporate banking cartel.

Your patronising attitude typifies what I experience from so many remoaners. You remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses, clinging on to your pathetically deluded version of the truth, and condemning anyone who has enough sense to see it for what it is.

Do one, basically, Leeds or not.

[The Subhuman]

Don’t feel ashamed. Don’t get angry at me, get angry at them. The ones that told you this could be done. That it would be the easiest deal in history. The ones that put messages on a side of a bus and made you think we’d be better off outside the largest trading block in the world.

After all the lies and convincing this could be done and be beneficial to your life we’re left at “let’s just get it done” “let’s just get out” and “leave means leave”

I hate what they have done to you.

You’re aiming at the wrong guy.

f**k me you did it again....but you know that.

[Sara]

As for being on the side of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, I oppose the EU from the left, so I'm on the side of Dennis Skinner, Tony Benn, Barbara Castle, Bob Crow, Eddie Dempsey... proper advocates for the working class, who knew full well that the EU was no friend of working people.

Bit different from the bourgeois bohemians, the middle class liberal remoaners, who want their foreign holidays, their au pairs, their wine lakes and their butter mountains.

[hector]

This discussuion was doing very well until the sanctamounious smuggness of Radebe's patronising posts, and I feel that tempers are starting to rise, so I am locking this thread now, and will remind myself... Political and religious threads are not good.

[hector]

I explained why I locked it.
Opinions are fine, patronising smuggness and talking down is not.
Tempers were starting to rise, and this is not a political fourm, it is a Leeds United forum, and if things are going to cause dis-harmony then they will be stopped.

Just as this thread is now going to be stopped.