Coronavirus

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SaraM
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by SaraM »

Peter in Blackpool wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:49 am Sara, there are many rules in society that its citizens may not agree with. However, we cannot pick and choose which ones to follow and which ones to ignore. Rules made by a democratically elected government have to be obeyed no matter what the subject and no matter what you personally feel about it.

Some people think class a drugs should be legalised, but that does not make them immune to arrest if caught in possession. Similarly, if a pub now opens after 10pm, no matter what the personal viewpoint of the landlord, he will still get a massive fine and possibly even lose his licence.

Anybody, no matter whether they agree with the law or not has to obey the lockdown laws or face punishment. Just the other day a woman was jailed on the iom for breaking self isolation laws.

I would however never challenge people not wearing a mask as they may have a very good personal reason for not doing so, but if my neighbour allowed visitors into his home i would certainly report him to the Police.
I'm not breaking any rules, Peter, I'm saying I'm not going to accept that something is true on authority, if reason and evidence tell me otherwise. Our responsibility is ultimately to follow our conscience, not obey like machines; I'm aware that you've been trained otherwise.

We've had this conversation before, and it didn't end well - I suggest leaving it there.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Overman »

Well done Peter, good citizen work!
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by faaip »

Define visitors?
This is Tinker and my name is er...Spengford Bloke, some kind of robber or ne'er do well
SaraM
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by SaraM »

Overman wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:13 pm Well done Peter, good citizen work!
Good citizens hold their government to account, otherwise we don't have a democracy.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Broad Ford »

Peter in Blackpool wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:49 am Rules made by a democratically elected government have to be obeyed no matter what the subject and no matter what you personally feel about it.
During periods of conflict and war government has the right to suspend democracy, effectively turning their tenure into a military style junta. General elections can be and have been suspended, secret sessions have been held and emergency powers vested in the governments interests.

Some choose to obey such a government, some choose to make a stand and resist.
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BobHirst
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BobHirst »

weasel wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:32 am New deaths do not neccesarily equate to new deaths from Cornona. Given that the average age of 'covid related' deaths in the majority of countries is 85 years old then the isolated figure doesn't take into account how many of the suppossed extra deaths would have happened anyway. It may come as shock but as people get older they are more at risk of dying from any number of reasons. As I stated the annual variance in death rates goes up and down so to simply claim 200,000 extra deaths doesn't simply mean these people died solely through coronavirus. Given that many people are too frightened to risk seeing their doctor or going into hospitals as they don't want to catch Covid then many extra deaths are happening that aren't covid deaths.

Still it doesn't matter as you have your head buried in the sand and it wouldn't matter what anyone told you.
"Still it doesn't matter as you have your head buried in the sand and it wouldn't matter what anyone told you"
You don't see the irony of that statement!

"to simply claim 200,000 extra deaths doesn't simply mean these people died solely through coronavirus. "
We are not saying that.
Some people who get Covid-19 are dying, Just because some of them had a heart condition or asthma or were over weight etc, does not negate the fact that they died because they contracted Covid-19. Most of those with pre existing conditions would still be living with those conditions had they not got Covid-19.
Regarding your death rate statistics, I did some research and I found studies (published in 2019) explaining reasons for the increase in the death rate in the USA. Suicides, Homicides and a drug overdoses particularly a huge increase in Opoid deaths. A 25% increase in the 18=44 age range which is not a small number.

I know you will probably "Still it doesn't matter as you have your head buried in the sand and it wouldn't matter what anyone told you" live up to your words but I will draw your attention again to the article published by the NY Times in August.

New York Times August 12th 2020
Across the United States, at least 200,000 more people have died than usual since March, according to a New York Times analysis of estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is about 60,000 higher than the number of deaths that have been directly linked to the coronavirus.

So 200,000 more people than usual died and 60,000 of them were NOT ATTRIBUTED to Covid-19. They recognize that the number of non-Covid deaths is increasing as you pointed out
I also read on the John Hopkins web site that they have determined that that the death rate from Covid-19 is 6 times that of the seasonal flu. I don't believe that they excluded people with other health issues from that comparison. I think they just checked if they were alive before getting Covid or the flu and if they were dead later.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Peter in Blackpool »

SaraM wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:26 pm Good citizens hold their government to account, otherwise we don't have a democracy.
quite agree, but in the meantime we need to conform to the law of the land whether we agree with the law or not.

I have a powerful car that i believe could easily travel at 100 mph on the motorway perfectly safely....but i still have to conform to 70 mph whether i like it or not.

So if the government creates a law stopping us from visiting our friends, we can hold the government to account, but still have to obey the law whether we agree with it or not....after all we elect a government to err govern
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Re: Coronavirus

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:23 pm quite agree, but in the meantime we need to conform to the law of the land whether we agree with the law or not.

I have a powerful car that i believe could easily travel at 100 mph on the motorway perfectly safely....but i still have to conform to 70 mph whether i like it or not.

So if the government creates a law stopping us from visiting our friends, we can hold the government to account, but still have to obey the law whether we agree with it or not....after all we elect a government to err govern
I don't know why you keep repeating the same point, I've already told you I am not breaking any of the rules. It's tedious and unnecessary, and exactly what you did before. I have already asked you once to stop, and I am now asking you again.

I am not convinced that the situation requires the suspension of democracy that we have currently, and neither are many far better legal minds than mine.

Parliament will be debating the repeal of the Coronavirus Act next week; hopefully we will see and end to the government by ministerial diktat which is currently in force. If anyone wishes to contact their MP about this, there is more information below:

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Overman »

SaraM wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:04 pm I don't know why you keep repeating the same point, I've already told you I am not breaking any of the rules. It's tedious and unnecessary, and exactly what you did before. I have already asked you once to stop, and I am now asking you again.

I am not convinced that the situation requires the suspension of democracy that we have currently, and neither are many far better legal minds than mine.

Parliament will be debating the repeal of the Coronavirus Act next week; hopefully we will see and end to the government by ministerial diktat which is currently in force. If anyone wishes to contact their MP about this, there is more information below:

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/
Worrying times indeed and not purely in reference to the virus, but the means employed to control it. If feels like a global neurosis at the moment. There's plenty of fear, death anxiety, mistrust and control. We need to protect the vulnerable, but the response is absurd and arbitrary at times.
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Smudge3920
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sara states...
I don't know why you keep repeating the same point, I've already told you I am not breaking any of the rules
Yet you expect other's too?... If you are complying yet disagree so vehemently why?... Could it be due to your pre existing condition Sara?
and goe's on...
I am not convinced that the situation requires the suspension of democracy that we have currently, and neither are many far better legal minds than mine.
How can you possibly compare a legal mind to a medical mind at this time?...And the "suspension of Democracy" statement you make is ludicrous and laughable ... As much as you hate him, Boris HAD IT and was in intensive care he is one who knows what the effects can be like to live with.
Parliament will be debating the repeal of the Coronavirus Act next week; hopefully we will see and end to the government by ministerial diktat which is currently in force
Should that happen, will that satisfy your need to prove the Government wrong? Whilst still obeying the rules due to your pre existing conditions?... Or will the reversal of that act somehow miraculously protect you from the virus?
Overman states...
We need to protect the vulnerable, but the response is absurd and arbitrary at times
So the answer is refuse to follow direction from those elected, because "we know better"

I will say it again, as have other's... I truly despair at what I am reading regarding this pandemic.

Stay safe all...
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BobHirst »

Smudge3920 wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:32 am
So the answer is refuse to follow direction from those elected, because "we know better"
I will say it again, as have other's... I truly despair at what I am reading regarding this pandemic.
Here in the USA most of our "we know better" people seem to be right wing Trump followers.

Reading the comments of the "we know better"people on here, (not just regarding Covid-19), I would be willing to bet that they don't agree with very much our beloved president represents.

Just thought it was an interesting observation.
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Smudge3920
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Smudge3920 »

BobHirst wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:27 am Here in the USA most of our "we know better" people seem to be right wing Trump followers.

Reading the comments of the "we know better"people on here, (not just regarding Covid-19), I would be willing to bet that they don't agree with very much our beloved president represents.

Just thought it was an interesting observation.
Bob mate, I truly despair for you guys at the moment, the pandemic is bad enough, but to have Trump as Pres, I have always stood by and believed that we (UK/US really did have a special relationship) to see one man being allowed to destroy all the US has built over the years.. but he is just a front mouth piece (imo) the majority of the republican party should be hanging their heads in shame allowing him to progress like this...I also believe he has no intention of relinquishing the office...and if he does (by a miracle) win it fairly God help not only the US in the next 4 years but the rest of the world.

Stay safe mate.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Peter in Blackpool »

SaraM wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:04 pm I don't know why you keep repeating the same point, I've already told you I am not breaking any of the rules. It's tedious and unnecessary, and exactly what you did before. I have already asked you once to stop, and I am now asking you again.

I am not convinced that the situation requires the suspension of democracy that we have currently, and neither are many far better legal minds than mine.

Parliament will be debating the repeal of the Coronavirus Act next week; hopefully we will see and end to the government by ministerial diktat which is currently in force. If anyone wishes to contact their MP about this, there is more information below:

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/
At no point have I accused you of breaking rules, I would not be so presumptious, only you can say whether or not you are breaking rules.

You cannot post your viewpoints on an open forum and then ask those who would challenge that viewpoint to stop.

Suspension of democracy? I seem to remember a general election which democratically elected the conservative party as led by boris johnson. Just because the outcome was contrary to what you wanted does not mean democracy has been suspended. Should you post things like that then do not be surprised if others challenge it......you truly want me to stop? then stop posting such ridiculous statements.

The last time democracy was suspended was in 1940 when general election was cancelled due to ww2, unless you count johnson's unsuccessful attempt to prorogue parliament last year
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Re: Coronavirus

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The powers granted by the Coronavirus Act are themselves draconian and antidemocratic, which is rather the point:

Forced detention and isolation, forced taking of biological samples, no clear access to legal rights once detained, state surveillance safeguards weakened, protections from forced detainment and treatment under the mental health act weakened, local elections suspended. Add to that the censorship of critical views on social media, and the widespread shaming of protesters and dissenters.

The Coronavirus Act was originally instituted for two years; the amendment to review every six months was only gained through campaigning. Ultimately it needs to be challenged through the courts, but in the meantime I will defend the right to speak against it.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with party politics. For what it's worth I actually give the government more credit than most for trying to follow a balanced path, but the present Act is an overreach.
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SaraM
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by SaraM »

Peter in Blackpool wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:15 am You cannot post your viewpoints on an open forum and then ask those who would challenge that viewpoint to stop.......you truly want me to stop? then stop posting such ridiculous statements.
You are not 'challenging my viewpoint', you are lecturing me from your presumed standpoint of authority.

There is only one adequate response to such behaviour, which I am not allowed to give on this form.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Overman »

Smudge3920 wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:32 am Yet you expect other's too?... If you are complying yet disagree so vehemently why?... Could it be due to your pre existing condition Sara?


How can you possibly compare a legal mind to a medical mind at this time?...And the "suspension of Democracy" statement you make is ludicrous and laughable ... As much as you hate him, Boris HAD IT and was in intensive care he is one who knows what the effects can be like to live with.


Should that happen, will that satisfy your need to prove the Government wrong? Whilst still obeying the rules due to your pre existing conditions?... Or will the reversal of that act somehow miraculously protect you from the virus?


So the answer is refuse to follow direction from those elected, because "we know better"

I will say it again, as have other's... I truly despair at what I am reading regarding this pandemic.

Stay safe all...
Despair all you want if it helps. It will have very little impact on the choices that people make.
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Re: Coronavirus

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Overman wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:02 pm Despair all you want if it helps. It will have very little impact on the choices that people make.
Oh very good, overman... another enlightening response ... :lol:
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Smudge3920
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Smudge3920 »

SaraM wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:12 am The powers granted by the Coronavirus Act are themselves draconian and antidemocratic, which is rather the point:

Forced detention and isolation, forced taking of biological samples, no clear access to legal rights once detained, state surveillance safeguards weakened, protections from forced detainment and treatment under the mental health act weakened, local elections suspended. Add to that the censorship of critical views on social media, and the widespread shaming of protesters and dissenters.

The Coronavirus Act was originally instituted for two years; the amendment to review every six months was only gained through campaigning. Ultimately it needs to be challenged through the courts, but in the meantime I will defend the right to speak against it.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with party politics. For what it's worth I actually give the government more credit than most for trying to follow a balanced path, but the present Act is an overreach.

A very "Trumponian" response...(imo) albeit a liberal border line far left one (again, imo). But exactly the same strategically and tactically... Use of the 4D's, keep repeating your line, whilst ignoring the question's put to you in discussion, and claiming you give more...
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