Scottish Referendum

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Scottish Referendum

Post by whiteswan »

Nicola Sturgeon is banging on about another Scottish referendum. With all that is going on in the world and UK with covid, is she just out to try and make a name for herself. Remember, it was only a few years ago that Scotland had a 'once in a generation referendum' and the Scottish people voted stay. Should she be allowed another referendum?
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Norm »

NO
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Norm »

...and the reason I say that is not because I think Scots should not decide their own future, but they've alrady done that. What do these extremists want? An annual referendum so they may get lucky one year?

Surely the will of the Scottish people was clear in the last referendum.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by whiteroseboy »

Think the question is "How often do you have a referendum" ?

Every Year, 10 years, 20 years, etc ?

If they are eventually given the chance to vote again a minimum time scale needs writing into the rules, big mistake not doing that last time.
There should also be a pay off, if it does happen and they lose the Scottish Parliament should be dissolved and everything handed back to westminster, lets face it a county the size of Yorkshire as similar population so should be entitled to the same rights/spending power if we are under the same government.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Chilli D »

Similar to the Brexit vote.
Those that wanted to stay in the EU demanded another vote because they didn't get their way.
I don't believe enough has changed to sway the vote in Scotland but if they want to go it alone, let them.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Smudge3920 »

In all my years I have yet to meet a Scotsman or woman, when I asked in conversation that actually wants independance, and each to a person has told me that Scotland has far to much to lose...IMO the independance issue has been used to get Scotland some luxuries that the rest of the UK do not recieve...and I also believe those that want to break up the Nation, not just Scotland but Wales also, would actually totally panic(in private) if they got it ...Northern Ireland is a different and more complex issue.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Mountain »

Norm wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:58 pm Surely the will of the Scottish people was clear in the last referendum.
It was. Over 60% of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU but the Act of Union prevents them from exercising their wish. Scottish people are now being forced to leave the EU against their will, and of course that is the big change since the last Independence referendum.

If the question is how often should the desire for independence be tested, one answer might after any act whereby the clear will of a large majority in a country on an issue as serious as Brexit is ignored because of 300 year old legislation.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Smudge3920 »

Mountain wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:12 am It was. Over 60% of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU but the Act of Union prevents them from exercising their wish. Scottish people are now being forced to leave the EU against their will, and of course that is the big change since the last Independence referendum.

If the question is how often should the desire for independence be tested, one answer might after any act whereby the clear will of a large majority in a country on an issue as serious as Brexit is ignored because of 300 year old legislation.
Correct me if I am wrong mountain...but wasnt the independance referendum done before the Brexit vote?..ergo the fact that 60% said remain is moot , as it is for the constintuances that also voted remain...demanding a re vote because one side lost and allowing it , would cause a never ending cylce...as if the remainers won a revote then the leavers would say best of 3!... there has to be an end point to referendums.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by whiteroseboy »

Mountain wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:12 am It was. Over 60% of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU but the Act of Union prevents them from exercising their wish. Scottish people are now being forced to leave the EU against their will, and of course that is the big change since the last Independence referendum.

If the question is how often should the desire for independence be tested, one answer might after any act whereby the clear will of a large majority in a country on an issue as serious as Brexit is ignored because of 300 year old legislation.
Scotland didn't actually have a vote about remaking in the EU it was a UK vote which they took part in.
Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.
2 or 3 regions I believe wanted to stay in the EU but the rest didn't its as simple as that, the winner wins you don't break it up its one national vote.

For the record if Scotland broke away they would need to apply to join the EU and been accepted is far from certain.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by mothbanquet »

Smudge3920 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:08 am In all my years I have yet to meet a Scotsman or woman, when I asked in conversation that actually wants independance, and each to a person has told me that Scotland has far to much to lose...IMO the independance issue has been used to get Scotland some luxuries that the rest of the UK do not recieve...and I also believe those that want to break up the Nation, not just Scotland but Wales also, would actually totally panic(in private) if they got it ...Northern Ireland is a different and more complex issue.
I both agree and disagree here. On the one hand. I think Sturgeon's mistake is the assumption that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence, rather than simply not a vote for Labour or Conservatives. I know far too many folk, Scottish or otherwise, to know that many (too many?) voters do so because they hate someone they're voting against rather than like the person they're voting for. So I agree with you on the first point.

As a Brexiteer, however, I refuse to believe the same unrealistic notion that the country would fall apart if we left the EU somehow applies to Scotland leaving the UK. I've known far too many Scots to know that they are and have always been a characteristically strong, resilient and capable people well able to forge their own destiny. I would be sad if it happened because I know how much they contribute to the Union (as any Forces vet would know) and am sad now that people think they're defined by Trainspotting-esque council estate denizens.

Ultimately, I believe it is up to the people of a nation or any region to choose their own destiny. That time has already been and gone, for sure, but the world changes quickly and nothing can be taken for granted, least of all human emotion. There is one thing I do believe - that if there is to be another Indyref, it shouldn't come while the SNP is in charge - not because of spite but because I think they're the least well-equipped party to administer a split from the Union. Such a move will need a party capable of generating wealth and opportunity to make the most of it.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

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mothbanquet wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:24 am I both agree and disagree here. On the one hand. I think Sturgeon's mistake is the assumption that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence, rather than simply not a vote for Labour or Conservatives. I know far too many folk, Scottish or otherwise, to know that many (too many?) voters do so because they hate someone they're voting against rather than like the person they're voting for. So I agree with you on the first point.

As a Brexiteer, however, I refuse to believe the same unrealistic notion that the country would fall apart if we left the EU somehow applies to Scotland leaving the UK. I've known far too many Scots to know that they are and have always been a characteristically strong, resilient and capable people well able to forge their own destiny. I would be sad if it happened because I know how much they contribute to the Union (as any Forces vet would know) and am sad now that people think they're defined by Trainspotting-esque council estate denizens.

Ultimately, I believe it is up to the people of a nation or any region to choose their own destiny. That time has already been and gone, for sure, but the world changes quickly and nothing can be taken for granted, least of all human emotion. There is one thing I do believe - that if there is to be another Indyref, it shouldn't come while the SNP is in charge - not because of spite but because I think they're the least well-equipped party to administer a split from the Union. Such a move will need a party capable of generating wealth and opportunity to make the most of it.
Good points MB...to clarify as an ex forces vet, I do appreciate just what Scotland and all the rest of the Union has contributed, and each country is a proud and resolute one in itself. But it is that very union that has made the Nation what it is as a whole....And lets not kid ourselves we (The United Kingdom) are still a very respected voice in world politics.
Regarding another indy referendum, if it was not the SNP leading it , would it not be a moot point?
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by mothbanquet »

Smudge3920 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:39 am Good points MB...to clarify as an ex forces vet, I do appreciate just what Scotland and all the rest of the Union has contributed, and each country is a proud and resolute one in itself. But it is that very union that has made the Nation what it is as a whole....And lets not kid ourselves we (The United Kingdom) are still a very respected voice in world politics.
Regarding another indy referendum, if it was not the SNP leading it , would it not be a moot point?
If one were to assume that the SNP own the concept and not the people, then for sure. Maybe another party equally devoted to the idea but different in character needs to come forward to prove this isn't the case? Until then I think there will always be the reasonable doubt that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Smudge3920 »

mothbanquet wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:44 am If one were to assume that the SNP own the concept and not the people, then for sure. Maybe another party equally devoted to the idea but different in character needs to come forward to prove this isn't the case? Until then I think there will always be the reasonable doubt that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.
Do you see any link between the Independance voter and the remainer voter in Scotland MB?
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Orange Box »

Living in Scotland I have a vested interest here. And to state my opinion I will declare my politics - consistently through my life I have varied my vote to suit what I believe is the appropriate manifesto at the time, firstly for me and mine, secondly for the community.
One this occasion I didn’t vote SNP, neither did 52% of the population, and the Scottish constituency layout gives them 49.5% of the seats (BBC). So technically Nicola doesn’t have a mandate to reapply for Indyref 2.0. However with such fine margins that could change in the blink of a political promise.
The various “most Scots I know...” comments posted will generally be based on where in Scotland the person lives. Look at the political map of the country and you will see the farming lowlands predominantly want UK allegiance (but paradoxically EU membership) whereas many Highlands folk still cling on to the Bonnie Prince Charlie idealism of Scottish rule and being best buddies with France.
Do I think the SNP will persist with nationalism? - of course, the clue is in the name. Give the worst darts player in the world enough arrows and eventually they will hit the bull.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

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Orange Box wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:49 am Living in Scotland I have a vested interest here. And to state my opinion I will declare my politics - consistently through my life I have varied my vote to suit what I believe is the appropriate manifesto at the time, firstly for me and mine, secondly for the community.
One this occasion I didn’t vote SNP, neither did 52% of the population, and the Scottish constituency layout gives them 49.5% of the seats (BBC). So technically Nicola doesn’t have a mandate to reapply for Indyref 2.0. However with such fine margins that could change in the blink of a political promise.
The various “most Scots I know...” comments posted will generally be based on where in Scotland the person lives. Look at the political map of the country and you will see the farming lowlands predominantly want UK allegiance (but paradoxically EU membership) whereas many Highlands folk still cling on to the Bonnie Prince Charlie idealism of Scottish rule and being best buddies with France.
Do I think the SNP will persist with nationalism? - of course, the clue is in the name. Give the worst darts player in the world enough arrows and eventually they will hit the bull.
Great post OB. I've often wondered how much nostalgia there is for the Auld Alliance myself as a history buff, it's far older than the Union after all. In your experience, how many independence supporters are actually happy with the idea of ceding of authority and autonomy to the EU after gaining it from England?

Is it a false assumption that Remain voters come from the independence voter pool?
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Re: Scottish Referendum

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Smudge3920 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:49 am Do you see any link between the Independance voter and the remainer voter in Scotland MB?
I will leave this one to Orange Box to clarify in his infinite Scottishness. :)
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Re: Scottish Referendum

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Orange Box wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:49 am Living in Scotland I have a vested interest here. And to state my opinion I will declare my politics - consistently through my life I have varied my vote to suit what I believe is the appropriate manifesto at the time, firstly for me and mine, secondly for the community.
One this occasion I didn’t vote SNP, neither did 52% of the population, and the Scottish constituency layout gives them 49.5% of the seats (BBC). So technically Nicola doesn’t have a mandate to reapply for Indyref 2.0. However with such fine margins that could change in the blink of a political promise.
The various “most Scots I know...” comments posted will generally be based on where in Scotland the person lives. Look at the political map of the country and you will see the farming lowlands predominantly want UK allegiance (but paradoxically EU membership) whereas many Highlands folk still cling on to the Bonnie Prince Charlie idealism of Scottish rule and being best buddies with France.
Do I think the SNP will persist with nationalism? - of course, the clue is in the name. Give the worst darts player in the world enough arrows and eventually they will hit the bull.
Just the comments needed to balance the discussion OB, and rightly more valid than mine...my "most scots I know" comment is based on working with many Scots over the years both militarily and civilian wise, from broad reaching locations all over Scotland and the world... My comments regarding the Union are based on a love of it, and I would hate to see it dismantled anymore...
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Re: Scottish Referendum

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As a first generation Englishman but with a massive Scottish heritage I'm torn... I'd be interested to see it at least voted on again and how, if Scotland rejoined the EU, it would all work...
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Orange Box »

mothbanquet wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:55 am Great post OB. I've often wondered how much nostalgia there is for the Auld Alliance myself as a history buff, it's far older than the Union after all. In your experience, how many independence supporters are actually happy with the idea of ceding of authority and autonomy to the EU after gaining it from England?

Is it a false assumption that Remain voters come from the independence voter pool?
I’m going to give a flippant answer first which slightly contradicts my original comment, the demographic with the most idealised Auld Alliance and the tartan-coloured spectacles would be the English immigrant (me included). The only Scots I know who embrace tartanism are involved tourism, most day to day Scots couldn’t give a flying f. Most Scots wouldn’t even know what the Auld Alliance was, many would think it’s supporting the national team because it has both Rangers and Celtic players involved.

EU membership is a whole different ball game which polarises opinion and I’m sorry but I don’t think I’m qualified just on residency to guess the choices of others. What I will say based on observation is that the average Scot would prefer to be in the EU regardless of UK membership, based on the support the EU has given in the past, whereas (as in anywhere outside London) many see government money staying south. Wherever you go in Scotland you will see plaques commemorating the fact that such-and-such building,scheme,group etc was funded by the EU, it’s a powerful tool.
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Re: Scottish Referendum

Post by Ron Swanson »

I'd let them have another referendum.

There are however some hugely important issues that would have to be thrashed out in the event of a YES vote.

The currency belongs as much to Scotland as it does to England/Wales... however if Scotland wants to join the EU they would be obliged to adopt the Euro...

Unless they were able to secure dispensation... which is highly unlikely.
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