Whats gone wrong . .

[1964white]

I dont know how we can go from the Spurs performance last week to that of Brighton, 2 completely different games. Not taking anything away from Graham Potter as hes set his teams up very well against us every time. Hats off to him for that. But bloody hell, Bielsa did not help us at all. Very lucky to come away with a point. Everything looked wrong, team selection, shape, tactics, just didn't work. December is gonna be a rough month is we carry on like that. The strangest thing for me was Gelhardt not getting a kick,,, just baffling!! Roberts gets some stick across the board which i think is undeserved, but if you've got a player like Gelhardt with the raw talent and fearlessness he would have been one of the first names on the team sheet today as a starter. I dont see what he sees in Firpo either, looks an awful addition tbh. Rather stick Shackleton in instead. Playing Phillips out of position is playing with fire as well. PLAY THE PLAYERS IN THERE BEST POSITIONS. Tinkering with thing that just don't need tinkering with.

Here, here & welcome back Lev

Absolutely no need for all the tinkering.

And how come did Firpo walk straight back into the team without a U23's game under his belt? very contradictory from Marcelo's usual stance.

[Overman]

It is often said that without a vision the people perish. As a corollary to that it could also be said that with the wrong vision people perish.

What I see in this thread is a long grocery list. A dismal depressing list of faults. Nothing inspirational, nothing to lift the spirits, bereft of any joy or hope.

The seed that is planted in my brain is one of nihilism. it is a cancer, it is a corruption that rots my bones. It is an insidious thought virus that brings depression and despair.

There are six things the Lord Bielsa hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Instead of rejecting this vision that pollutes our minds, it seems that many are gladly embracing it, engaging in character assassination of the manager and scoffing at the players that he puts in his team and the positions they play.

They will be ever so gleeful if their prophecies of doom come true, never even considering that their vitriolic outbursts have contributed to the dismal mood that pervades the fan base.

One of Napoleon's most famous remarks for the English-speaking world is 'England is a nation of shopkeepers'. It would appear that Leeds fans are becoming souless green grocery clerks forever taking inventories an making meaningless lists in the hope that the longer they make the list then it would bring them nearer salvation and redemption.

Football is perhaps like a religion. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Keep the faith, have hope for the future, and love your team.

That is the vision that we should be promoting

Such a wordsmith, as Crowley once said 'do what thou will' if folk use this space to vent their worries then so be it. As for Napoleon, perhaps there is some sort of complex here.

[1964white]

Great post, once again, and a sensible comparison. It is worth noting that Tottenham have done sh*t since Pocchetino was sacked and in a case of not knowing what you had till it was gone they tried to get Poch back. I could see it being similar if we let Bielsa go and we'd go into freefall, likely relegation and quite possibly the risk of even dropping down 2 divisions in a short space of time like we did before and like others have done, with several also coming close.

For me the board at Tottenham were the biggest culprits to Tottenham not kicking on. All this sh*te about Levy not overpaying for players etc but sometimes you need to pay over the odds to get that 1 player in who could make the difference, a Cantona for example at MU( okay they didn't overpay but he was the catalyst) or a Van Dijk at Liverpool etc. For me a team probably needs around 3 or 4 new faces every season at first team level. Even if a team does well it is likely 1 or 2 players are starting to dip a bit, or coming towards the end of their career at that level. So you want to replace them and you also want 1 or 2 players that are better than someone who is still good enough to start. Tottenham didn't do that and we didn't this season. Firpo may prove to be an upgrade on Alioski although the injuries and poor perfromances though far are worrying. James may be a good/great signing but as started slowly. Ideally you need at least 2 of the 4 new signings to hit the ground running and play really well like Raphinha did last season and Llorente did after his injuries (how much better might we have done had Llorente been fit from the start?)

It is very disappointing though to see all the fickle fans turning on Bielsa, questioning his methods etc at the first sign of a blip. Without Bielsa where would we be? And yes there can become a point where it stops working but I don't see that at all. We are having a blip, injuries are key and a bit of a lack of confidence doesn't help either. Bielsa may be frustrating at times with the round pegs etc but it is that that made KP the player he is today, changing him to be a defensive midfielder, dropping him into centreback now and again to increase his understanding of what is happening behind him. It is what made Dallas what he is today a premier league midfielder or full back, player of the year for us, rather than a mid championship level winger. He has made Bamford an England striker rather than just a journeyman championship mid level striker. He has made 'League 1 Liam' Cooper into a decent premier league centreback and it is interesting when fans say the Bielsa system protects players like Liam and others and makes them llook better than they are and how they'd struggle at other teams yet then seem to want the manager to either change the way we play or get rid of the manager completely.

Fans need to get behind Bielsa. It was fine giving out all the love, doing murals etc when everythig was going right but how about a bit of loyalty when a show of support is needed? Bielsa is not like other managers, he won't just stick around for the paycheck, if he feels unwanted he will simply leave and I for one dread to think what will happen if he does as I can't see any avaialble manager doing better with the players he has. Yes we may need to give him some better players but equally he has given us better players than we thought we had and better football than I ever thought I'd see us playing.

So, Marcelo is not making any serious mistakes in your mind, Weasel.

I knew we were in for a torrid time as soon as the line-up was announced at 3.30pm on Saturday.

The changes led to confusion & a lack of confidence, cohesion & continuity.

[LevLeeds]

Here, here & welcome back Lev

Absolutely no need for all the tinkering.

And how come did Firpo walk straight back into the team without a U23's game under his belt? very contradictory from Marcelo's usual stance.

Nice one 1964,,, its been a while,,, been away moving house / having babies etc,,,,,, Hope you're doing well??

Yeh Bamford and Ayling playing for the U23's today I hear,,, Phillips not being rushed back earlier in the season... Firpo straight back in,,, very strange. Clearly seeing something we're not... he looks like he'd struggle in the Championship to me. Hope he improves but not seeing alot from him, out of position, not great at defending, passing was all over the shop....

[1964white]

Nice one 1964,,, its been a while,,, been away moving house / having babies etc,,,,,, Hope you're doing well??

I'm fine Lev.

Congratulations with the kids

[Clacton White]

The fans expectations. That's what's wrong.

Bielsa has pulled off a miracle, taking Championship players into the top 10 of the EPL. He can't replicate it again and again week in week out, especially when missing some important players. So fans have started grumbling.

I too think Bielsa is still the man for the job , however I do think he will go of his own making at the end of the season .I do think that I would be right in saying that Leeds are the first club he has gone into a 4th season of managing , maybe with the small squad the players are now burnt out . Problem in the main for me has been Orta , how many potential transfers do you see not come about ? How many if those would move the club forward ? He seems to be ok at getting in youth , but when it comes to first team he more often than not fails miserably , he is not selling the club to these people imo . I know some links are maybe newspaper talk , but some of the players talked to who go to other clubs.....well , you can't help but think it's down to Orta . January will be interesting but I have no great hopes there .

[weasel]

So, Marcelo is not making any serious mistakes in your mind, Weasel.

I knew we were in for a torrid time as soon as the line-up was announced at 3.30pm on Saturday.

The changes led to confusion & a lack of confidence, cohesion & continuity.

Serious mistakes - definitely not.

You can certainly argue he has made mistakes (selection of players or playing osmeone out of position) by using unproven hindsight as the judge and jury. No manager will get every decision right in terms of selection and if it goes wrong it is automatically judged as the wrong decision. Making a different decision may though have resulted in a worse result.

I, like you, would have made different decisions now and again definitely but for it is the level of vitriol aimed at Bielsa that I don't like, it almost reads like he is a complete buffoon. If he read this forum he'd probably walk out of the club and we'd be far worse of because of it.

[1964white]

Serious mistakes - definitely not.

You can certainly argue he has made mistakes (selection of players or playing osmeone out of position) by using unproven hindsight as the judge and jury. No manager will get every decision right in terms of selection and if it goes wrong it is automatically judged as the wrong decision. Making a different decision may though have resulted in a worse result.

I, like you, would have made different decisions now and again definitely but for it is the level of vitriol aimed at Bielsa that I don't like, it almost reads like he is a complete buffoon. If he read this forum he'd probably walk out of the club and we'd be far worse of because of it.

Very true, thanks for your reply

[weasel]

Very true, thanks for your reply

I think as well with fans it is all about immediate results. With Bielsa a lot of the so called round pegs stuff is about educating players as to what players in positions close to them on the pitch are doing.

Take the Dan James situation and him playing as a striker. I don't think the club, or Bielsa, bought him just to be a player to fill in where necessary. I also don't think they bought him to be a striker, although there are similarities with what City have done with Sterling and Ferran Torres in that they have bought dimunite but fast wingers and played them up front on their own (1 of them rather than both at the same time) quite often. I feel Bielsa has bought him to be the no.10 and play behind the striker but in taking the opportunity to play him up front for a few matches he is educating him in what the striker would be doing so that when he plays as the no.10 he will understand what movement the striker will make, where to play the ball better etc - in doing this it is similar when he played KP as a centreback a lot in his early transformation to a defensive midfielder so that he understood the position and perspective of the players behind him. He made it easier for KP to be able to read the play when the opposition had the ball.

The way I see it Bielsa looks a lot more at the bigger picture, the long term plan in making players much better and fit into his system better. Better understanding makes for a much more cohesive unit and I think he sees the opportunity to educate a player when someone is out for a couple of matches rather than just put in a like for like back-up.

It is therefore important when understanding Bielsa to understand his methods and understand the longer term process. Sometimes it is painful in the short term but the long term plan is progressing well - a bit like how Howard Wilkinson had little money to spend so had to make do with a lot of journeymen signings to try to bridge the time until his 10 year plan came to fruition. Who knows what would have happened if Wilko had been given longer and allowed to get through those sticky times and get to the point where his plan came together. He won the title with a cobbled together side, what could he have done with a side that he'd built?

[Carrick Dave]

I agree Bamford & Ayling are big players for us.

That said, it doesn't excuse Bielsa making so many changes for the Brighton game. Raphinha should have been the only change from the Spurs game.

Why make three changes & five positional changes after our decent performance vs Spurs?

Far too much unnecessary meddling imo! I was concerned as soon as the team was announced on Saturday.

Some of our fans are not answering my question I've posted several times.

No one knows why Marcelo made three changes & five positional changes after our decent performance vs Spurs except Marcelo. If that's the question you want answered, why do you expect the fans to know?

Nobody's answering my questions either - who replaces Marcelo mid-season if we force him out of the club? Who do we sign in January to magically and immediately transform our fortunes? Have we got the money? Will it work?

This thread should have been called "Who do we blame for what's gone wrong". I agree with Weasel, if he was reading this stuff, and doubtless worse elsewhere, Marcelo would just walk, and he'd be right.

[1964white]

No one knows why Marcelo made three changes & five positional changes after our decent performance vs Spurs except Marcelo. If that's the question you want answered, why do you expect the fans to know?

Nobody's answering my questions either - who replaces Marcelo mid-season if we force him out of the club? Who do we sign in January to magically and immediately transform our fortunes? Have we got the money? Will it work?

This thread should have been called "Who do we blame for what's gone wrong". I agree with Weasel, if he was reading this stuff, and doubtless worse elsewhere, Marcelo would just walk, and he'd be right.

Bielsa is a bigger man than to walk after what he may read on a football forum.

[BGwhite]

Nobody is above criticism and MB would probably be more concerned if none of us were baffled by his decisions .

Sent from my moto g(9) plus using Tapatalk

[weasel]

Bielsa is a bigger man than to walk after what he may read on a football forum.

He has stayed at Leeds longer than anywhere and for me that has been largely due to how te fans have taken to him. He has felt understood and loved, he has felt wanted. If he read this forum, or others or picked up on some of the vitriol being bandied around at present would he still feel that way? If he felt like the fans didn't want him here then I definitely feel he would simply walk away. He has left clubs before when the club hasn't been behind him.

[Overman]

He has stayed at Leeds longer than anywhere and for me that has been largely due to how te fans have taken to him. He has felt understood and loved, he has felt wanted. If he read this forum, or others or picked up on some of the vitriol being bandied around at present would he still feel that way? If he felt like the fans didn't want him here then I definitely feel he would simply walk away. He has left clubs before when the club hasn't been behind him.

He's an adult at the end of the day, if he chooses to walk over a few comments on a forum, then so be it. I am sure he is a much more resilient soul and 6 million a year will go some way. Ultimately, Bielsa is for Bielsa, it's always been that way.

[Overman]

No one knows why Marcelo made three changes & five positional changes after our decent performance vs Spurs except Marcelo. If that's the question you want answered, why do you expect the fans to know?

Nobody's answering my questions either - who replaces Marcelo mid-season if we force him out of the club? Who do we sign in January to magically and immediately transform our fortunes? Have we got the money? Will it work?

This thread should have been called "Who do we blame for what's gone wrong". I agree with Weasel, if he was reading this stuff, and doubtless worse elsewhere, Marcelo would just walk, and he'd be right.

I mentioned Gerarrd a good while back, but that ship has sailed unfortunately.

[joelufc20]

Hi all, been a while. I am a full blown Bielsa lover but this season he seems to be losing the plot. 3 at the back clearly doesn’t work and square pegs in round holes is affecting team cohesion. Some of his tactical setups are bizarre. Against spurs and Brighton we had a centre back playing right back a winger playing right back Firpo who is s**t a cdm playing centre back a right winger playing striker a striker playing cam. Complete mess. We don’t press and we have stopped controlling possession instead looking at hopeful long passes. Harrison is awful, Robert’s is not the answer either. The players look confused and tbh I think they look fed up. As for Bielsa using youth that’sa myth just count up how many appearances combined our youth players have played over the last 4 seasons it’s not a lot.

I hope he sorts it out but tbh I think he’s fucked.

Not bad 64, been to a few this season, Everton Crewe West Ham wolves and city. Got a new phone so it’s easier to navigate to this page lol. Tend to use twitter but there are some people on there who would rather get relegated with Bielsa than stay in the elite league. Madness

[1964white]

Not bad 64, been to a few this season, Everton Crewe West Ham wolves and city. Got a new phone so it’s easier to navigate to this page lol. Tend to use twitter but there are some people on there who would rather get relegated with Bielsa than stay in the elite league. Madness

Missed the Everton, Crewe & West Ham due to holidays & other engagements, done all the other home games, was at the Spurs, Newcastle & Norwich aways. Fingers crossed I can acquire a Chelsea ticket.

Still buzzing on here. Glad you are ok, Joe.

[1964white]

He has stayed at Leeds longer than anywhere and for me that has been largely due to how te fans have taken to him. He has felt understood and loved, he has felt wanted. If he read this forum, or others or picked up on some of the vitriol being bandied around at present would he still feel that way? If he felt like the fans didn't want him here then I definitely feel he would simply walk away. He has left clubs before when the club hasn't been behind him.

Fans are always going to question his decisions, especially the ludicrous changes last weekend.

Bielsa is honest enough to admit he has made mistakes of late & shouldering the blame on himself as the great man does.

[Byebyegeegee]

Serious mistakes - definitely not.

You can certainly argue he has made mistakes (selection of players or playing osmeone out of position) by using unproven hindsight as the judge and jury. No manager will get every decision right in terms of selection and if it goes wrong it is automatically judged as the wrong decision. Making a different decision may though have resulted in a worse result.

I, like you, would have made different decisions now and again definitely but for it is the level of vitriol aimed at Bielsa that I don't like, it almost reads like he is a complete buffoon. If he read this forum he'd probably walk out of the club and we'd be far worse of because of it.

Surely vitriol is too strong a word weasel. I’ve seen none on this thread and very little on this forum generally. I see fans who, rightly, are concerned at the drastic dip in form of the team this season as compared to last season and who are genuinely worried about the teams ability, as things stand, to maintain premiership status for next season. I see fans offering opinions on why they believe things are “going wrong” and attempting to offer possible solutions.

Certainly nothing that could be described as vitriolic!

[1964white]

Surely vitriol is too strong a word weasel. I’ve seen none on this thread and very little on this forum generally. I see fans who, rightly, are concerned at the drastic dip in form of the team this season as compared to last season and who are genuinely worried about the teams ability, as things stand, to maintain premiership status for next season. I see fans offering opinions on why they believe things are “going wrong” and attempting to offer possible solutions.

Certainly nothing that could be described as vitriolic!

Indeed Byebye