Whats gone wrong . .

For everything Leeds United related and everything not - Have your say... the Marching on Together way!
Forum rules
Please be sure you are acquainted with the forum rules outlined within our FAQs.

Help support the site by using our Amazon Affiliate link when making any purchases from Amazon.
User avatar
joelufc20
First Team
First Team
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:35 pm
Location: Lincoln UK

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by joelufc20 »

Hi all, been a while. I am a full blown Bielsa lover but this season he seems to be losing the plot. 3 at the back clearly doesn’t work and square pegs in round holes is affecting team cohesion. Some of his tactical setups are bizarre. Against spurs and Brighton we had a centre back playing right back a winger playing right back Firpo who is s**t a cdm playing centre back a right winger playing striker a striker playing cam. Complete mess. We don’t press and we have stopped controlling possession instead looking at hopeful long passes. Harrison is awful, Robert’s is not the answer either. The players look confused and tbh I think they look fed up. As for Bielsa using youth that’sa myth just count up how many appearances combined our youth players have played over the last 4 seasons it’s not a lot.

I hope he sorts it out but tbh I think he’s fucked.
REST IN PEACE GARY SPEED LEEDS UNITED LEGEND



[url}http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/gallery ... n-pictures[/url]
User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 14031
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Within a mile of Yorkshire

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by weasel »

1964white wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:23 pm Yes MJ, football is a simple game made complex by Bielsa.
Football is a simple game made beautiful by Bielsa. Any coach can take a group of players and fit square pegs into square holes and do okay for a while, Lampard, Southgate, Ole etc can be added to long, long lists. I think you could count on one hand the amount of managers in the world that could get the group of players he inherited to play to the level they did and in such an eye pleasing way. First major blip and people seem to forget that,
User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 127717
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by 1964white »

weasel wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:20 pm Football is a simple game made beautiful by Bielsa. Any coach can take a group of players and fit square pegs into square holes and do okay for a while, Lampard, Southgate, Ole etc can be added to long, long lists. I think you could count on one hand the amount of managers in the world that could get the group of players he inherited to play to the level they did and in such an eye pleasing way. First major blip and people seem to forget that,
Not denying any of that Weasel, but he does overthink the beautiful game at times.
User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 127717
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by 1964white »

joelufc20 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:19 pm Hi all, been a while. I am a full blown Bielsa lover but this season he seems to be losing the plot. 3 at the back clearly doesn’t work and square pegs in round holes is affecting team cohesion. Some of his tactical setups are bizarre. Against spurs and Brighton we had a centre back playing right back a winger playing right back Firpo who is s**t a cdm playing centre back a right winger playing striker a striker playing cam. Complete mess. We don’t press and we have stopped controlling possession instead looking at hopeful long passes. Harrison is awful, Robert’s is not the answer either. The players look confused and tbh I think they look fed up. As for Bielsa using youth that’sa myth just count up how many appearances combined our youth players have played over the last 4 seasons it’s not a lot.

I hope he sorts it out but tbh I think he’s fucked.
Hi Joe

How are you?
Boo Radley
First Team
First Team
Posts: 1828
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:18 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Boo Radley »

We don’t know what’s going on within the camp or during training but something seems to have changed. Then it’s a question of chicken and egg. Is Bielsa changing players roles and line ups because of what he knows is off in the squad, or are spirits dropping because of the chopping and changing.

Does Bielsa realise that opponents have sussed us out tactically and is shuffling the deck more frantically to try to find new options? Potter had us sussed last year.

To many of us the solution isn’t that complicated. We need to play to our strengths by simply putting players in their “correct” positions, do the simple stuff well, then do it faster, strengthen the middle to stop teams walking through us and continue the search for a goal scorer that can occasionally score half chances and very likely score decent chances, when they arise.

The fans are still onside. Most believe that there is enough in this squad to avoid relegation, as do I. They will maintain this position as long as there is 100% effort and concentration on the pitch and logic and progress in dugout. Neither were present yesterday.
Jimang
Reserve Player
Reserve Player
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:03 am

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Jimang »

Agree with most of what has been said. Don't think injuries has had too much of a bearing on things, Bamford and Ayling were fit for the early games and we were losing those as well. Definately playing people out of their best positions when not necessary, and the players are getting confused with all the changes. Seems to be a problem between Phillips and Bielsa which is concerning. Most of last seasons buys have not worked out, Firpo does not have any pace at full back, can't see how he got in Barcelona squad. Not convinced with Rodrigo yet, seems to disappear for long periods, and Koch when fit has not filled me with any confidence. Raph is obviously the exception, and Llorente and James doing OK.

Bielsa has been brilliant for the club, but I think maybe a change is needed going forward. Main problem though is the way we break fast, get lots of players forward then give the ball away and get hit on the break leaving our central defenders exposed. We seemed to be mostly out of ideas on Saturday, if it had not been for outstanding goalkeeping and woeful finishing by Brighton it could easily have been 5.0. Got to pull together to stay up, then get things sorted for next season 🤞
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28191
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:20 pm Football is a simple game made beautiful by Bielsa. Any coach can take a group of players and fit square pegs into square holes and do okay for a while, Lampard, Southgate, Ole etc can be added to long, long lists. I think you could count on one hand the amount of managers in the world that could get the group of players he inherited to play to the level they did and in such an eye pleasing way. First major blip and people seem to forget that,
Nobody will ever take that away from him but we need to move on from that group of players more, that seems to be something he is very reluctant to do.

Every group has a ceiling and that core group have 100% reached their one.

Now is the reason he is so reluctant because he is overly loyal? Very possibly.

Or is it because the recruitment team aren't offering him decent alternatives?
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Mick Jones shoulder
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2814
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:34 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Mick Jones shoulder »

Alternatively beautiful football has been found out by simple football. Why over complicate.
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 28191
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Cjay »

There may be a bit of a precedent for this.

A maverick manager coming into a club that has struggled somewhat for a while.

Helping to reinvigorate a squad with a relatively small budget and minimal squad changes over a number of seasons.

Achieving success.

But then experiencing a rapid drop off in form with accusations that the squad has gone stale and is to small and that the players simply can't cope with the intensity anymore.

We only have to look at last week's opponents and turn the clock back to November 2019 when Tottenham sacked Mauricio Pochettino.

When Spurs lost 3-0 to Brighton in October 2019 10 of the 11 starting players had been at Spurs for 3 years or more.

For us on Saturday it was 6 out of 11 and by the end it was 9 out of 14.

Then add Bamford and Ayling.

Of the 17 players who have played 2 games worth of minutes or more for us in the league this season 12 have been here since Bielsa arrived or before.

Their are Similarities between the issues Poch had at Spurs towards the end and the issues Bielsa is having now.

Small squad, intense style, minimal squad changes over 3,4,5 seasons, a steep drop off in form.
Signed

King Cjay

Fountain of all knowledge and wisdom
Broad Ford
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:17 am
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Broad Ford »

The only thing wrong is fans expectations.

First season back and LUFC exceeded expectations. Survival ended with a ninth placed finish, yet fans then expect the club to build upon this the following year.

About strengthening the midfield, Orta would have had identified targets but failed to land them due to a variety of reasons. Without these key signings then the next best thing is to ask professional footballers to try their hand playing in a different position. Either it works out or it's the square peg in a round hole problem.

When Leeds were relegated from the PL, spending millions on players and their subsequent wages without further success ended up with administration followed by an eventual place in league 1. Do we want LUFC to risk another administration? I didn't think so.

Patience is the key to success and without MB as coach where would the club be right now with the same squad and injury situation. Would LUFC be in Newcastles league position?

I'm keeping faith with MB, even his pet projects for now. When a full squad is available and playing good football Leeds will be safe from the threat of relegation with games to spare and the fans can then look forward to a third season of top tier English football. Who knows what season three holds in store for the faithful. MOT
Hey you, out there on the road
Always doing what you're told
Can you help me?
Mountain
First Team
First Team
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:20 am

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Mountain »

The fans expectations. That's what's wrong.

Bielsa has pulled off a miracle, taking Championship players into the top 10 of the EPL. He can't replicate it again and again week in week out, especially when missing some important players. So fans have started grumbling.
User avatar
The Subhuman
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 55508
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by The Subhuman »

Broad Ford wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:36 pm The only thing wrong is fans expectations.

First season back and LUFC exceeded expectations. Survival ended with a ninth placed finish, yet fans then expect the club to build upon this the following year.

About strengthening the midfield, Orta would have had identified targets but failed to land them due to a variety of reasons. Without these key signings then the next best thing is to ask professional footballers to try their hand playing in a different position. Either it works out or it's the square peg in a round hole problem.

When Leeds were relegated from the PL, spending millions on players and their subsequent wages without further success ended up with administration followed by an eventual place in league 1. Do we want LUFC to risk another administration? I didn't think so.

Patience is the key to success and without MB as coach where would the club be right now with the same squad and injury situation. Would LUFC be in Newcastles league position?

I'm keeping faith with MB, even his pet projects for now. When a full squad is available and playing good football Leeds will be safe from the threat of relegation with games to spare and the fans can then look forward to a third season of top tier English football. Who knows what season three holds in store for the faithful. MOT
Top post
"Never debate an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and they have the advantage of experience"
User avatar
Muppet the Cat
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 13044
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 9:42 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Muppet the Cat »

Jimang wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:54 pm Agree with most of what has been said. Don't think injuries has had too much of a bearing on things, Bamford and Ayling were fit for the early games and we were losing those as well. Definately playing people out of their best positions when not necessary, and the players are getting confused with all the changes. Seems to be a problem between Phillips and Bielsa which is concerning. Most of last seasons buys have not worked out, Firpo does not have any pace at full back, can't see how he got in Barcelona squad. Not convinced with Rodrigo yet, seems to disappear for long periods, and Koch when fit has not filled me with any confidence. Raph is obviously the exception, and Llorente and James doing OK.

Bielsa has been brilliant for the club, but I think maybe a change is needed going forward. Main problem though is the way we break fast, get lots of players forward then give the ball away and get hit on the break leaving our central defenders exposed. We seemed to be mostly out of ideas on Saturday, if it had not been for outstanding goalkeeping and woeful finishing by Brighton it could easily have been 5.0. Got to pull together to stay up, then get things sorted for next season 🤞
Had to read that a couple of times, Jimang…🤔

So, they should be having Weetabix in the TA canteen and not Shreddies ? :-D
Jimang
Reserve Player
Reserve Player
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:03 am

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Jimang »

Haha, Weetabix for breakfast would be a good starting point Muppet.
Prisoner37
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by Prisoner37 »

Bielsa is a systems thinker. His system has been developed over decades of study and analysis. He beleives in his system and judges his own work (so isn't open to feedback from others).

One of the major pillars of his system is to have a small squad with a cover of two for each position.
To ensure that level of cover most players have to be able to play in two positions and more in the case of Dallas and Pascal it seems. To be able to effectively play in other positions you have to practice playing in a different shaped hole. Therefore injuries are opportunities to give players that practice.

The problem being, when you have key players injured, the pack gets shuffled with players with less experience or quality.

I agree with Weasel that Ayling and Bamford are two of our players that really make other parts of the system work.

Unfortunately most of our players aren't systems thinkers so when MB changes the positions in the system three times in 30 minutes like the second half against Spurs mayhem ensues.

Hopefully we get Ayling and Bamford back soon and MB gives the players a bit more stability in the their natural positions for the next two game.

Whatever happens it is up to us supports to get behind the manager and the team at Elland Road to help lift us out of this current position.
User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 127717
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by 1964white »

Prisoner37 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:50 am Bielsa is a systems thinker. His system has been developed over decades of study and analysis. He beleives in his system and judges his own work (so isn't open to feedback from others).

One of the major pillars of his system is to have a small squad with a cover of two for each position.
To ensure that level of cover most players have to be able to play in two positions and more in the case of Dallas and Pascal it seems. To be able to effectively play in other positions you have to practice playing in a different shaped hole. Therefore injuries are opportunities to give players that practice.

The problem being, when you have key players injured, the pack gets shuffled with players with less experience or quality.

I agree with Weasel that Ayling and Bamford are two of our players that really make other parts of the system work.

Unfortunately most of our players aren't systems thinkers so when MB changes the positions in the system three times in 30 minutes like the second half against Spurs mayhem ensues.

Hopefully we get Ayling and Bamford back soon and MB gives the players a bit more stability in the their natural positions for the next two game.

Whatever happens it is up to us supports to get behind the manager and the team at Elland Road to help lift us out of this current position.
I agree Bamford & Ayling are big players for us.

That said, it doesn't excuse Bielsa making so many changes for the Brighton game. Raphinha should have been the only change from the Spurs game.

Why make three changes & five positional changes after our decent performance vs Spurs?

Far too much unnecessary meddling imo! I was concerned as soon as the team was announced on Saturday.

Some of our fans are not answering my question I've posted several times.
rab_rant
Guest
Guest

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by rab_rant »

It is often said that without a vision the people perish. As a corollary to that it could also be said that with the wrong vision people perish.

What I see in this thread is a long grocery list. A dismal depressing list of faults. Nothing inspirational, nothing to lift the spirits, bereft of any joy or hope.

The seed that is planted in my brain is one of nihilism. it is a cancer, it is a corruption that rots my bones. It is an insidious thought virus that brings depression and despair.

There are six things the Lord Bielsa hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Instead of rejecting this vision that pollutes our minds, it seems that many are gladly embracing it, engaging in character assassination of the manager and scoffing at the players that he puts in his team and the positions they play.

They will be ever so gleeful if their prophecies of doom come true, never even considering that their vitriolic outbursts have contributed to the dismal mood that pervades the fan base.

One of Napoleon's most famous remarks for the English-speaking world is 'England is a nation of shopkeepers'. It would appear that Leeds fans are becoming souless green grocery clerks forever taking inventories an making meaningless lists in the hope that the longer they make the list then it would bring them nearer salvation and redemption.

Football is perhaps like a religion. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Keep the faith, have hope for the future, and love your team.

That is the vision that we should be promoting
VinnysTattoo
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 910
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:55 pm

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by VinnysTattoo »

I would counter that view in that the lists of discontent are on here because we love the club.

I treat these lists as cathartic, purging some of the frustrations over our current situation.

“Sack the manager” type quotes without qualification are unhelpful. However, because the lists of issues are growing, it demonstrates to me that there is something out of kilter at the club.
User avatar
LevLeeds
Reserve Player
Reserve Player
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:43 am
Twitter: @Simonlev99

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by LevLeeds »

I dont know how we can go from the Spurs performance last week to that of Brighton, 2 completely different games. Not taking anything away from Graham Potter as hes set his teams up very well against us every time. Hats off to him for that. But bloody hell, Bielsa did not help us at all. Very lucky to come away with a point. Everything looked wrong, team selection, shape, tactics, just didn't work. December is gonna be a rough month is we carry on like that. The strangest thing for me was Gelhardt not getting a kick,,, just baffling!! Roberts gets some stick across the board which i think is undeserved, but if you've got a player like Gelhardt with the raw talent and fearlessness he would have been one of the first names on the team sheet today as a starter. I dont see what he sees in Firpo either, looks an awful addition tbh. Rather stick Shackleton in instead. Playing Phillips out of position is playing with fire as well. PLAY THE PLAYERS IN THERE BEST POSITIONS. Tinkering with thing that just don't need tinkering with.
User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 14031
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Within a mile of Yorkshire

Re: Whats gone wrong . .

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:00 pm There may be a bit of a precedent for this.

A maverick manager coming into a club that has struggled somewhat for a while.

Helping to reinvigorate a squad with a relatively small budget and minimal squad changes over a number of seasons.

Achieving success.

But then experiencing a rapid drop off in form with accusations that the squad has gone stale and is to small and that the players simply can't cope with the intensity anymore.

We only have to look at last week's opponents and turn the clock back to November 2019 when Tottenham sacked Mauricio Pochettino.

When Spurs lost 3-0 to Brighton in October 2019 10 of the 11 starting players had been at Spurs for 3 years or more.

For us on Saturday it was 6 out of 11 and by the end it was 9 out of 14.

Then add Bamford and Ayling.

Of the 17 players who have played 2 games worth of minutes or more for us in the league this season 12 have been here since Bielsa arrived or before.

Their are Similarities between the issues Poch had at Spurs towards the end and the issues Bielsa is having now.

Small squad, intense style, minimal squad changes over 3,4,5 seasons, a steep drop off in form.
Great post, once again, and a sensible comparison. It is worth noting that Tottenham have done sh*t since Pocchetino was sacked and in a case of not knowing what you had till it was gone they tried to get Poch back. I could see it being similar if we let Bielsa go and we'd go into freefall, likely relegation and quite possibly the risk of even dropping down 2 divisions in a short space of time like we did before and like others have done, with several also coming close.

For me the board at Tottenham were the biggest culprits to Tottenham not kicking on. All this sh*te about Levy not overpaying for players etc but sometimes you need to pay over the odds to get that 1 player in who could make the difference, a Cantona for example at MU( okay they didn't overpay but he was the catalyst) or a Van Dijk at Liverpool etc. For me a team probably needs around 3 or 4 new faces every season at first team level. Even if a team does well it is likely 1 or 2 players are starting to dip a bit, or coming towards the end of their career at that level. So you want to replace them and you also want 1 or 2 players that are better than someone who is still good enough to start. Tottenham didn't do that and we didn't this season. Firpo may prove to be an upgrade on Alioski although the injuries and poor perfromances though far are worrying. James may be a good/great signing but as started slowly. Ideally you need at least 2 of the 4 new signings to hit the ground running and play really well like Raphinha did last season and Llorente did after his injuries (how much better might we have done had Llorente been fit from the start?)

It is very disappointing though to see all the fickle fans turning on Bielsa, questioning his methods etc at the first sign of a blip. Without Bielsa where would we be? And yes there can become a point where it stops working but I don't see that at all. We are having a blip, injuries are key and a bit of a lack of confidence doesn't help either. Bielsa may be frustrating at times with the round pegs etc but it is that that made KP the player he is today, changing him to be a defensive midfielder, dropping him into centreback now and again to increase his understanding of what is happening behind him. It is what made Dallas what he is today a premier league midfielder or full back, player of the year for us, rather than a mid championship level winger. He has made Bamford an England striker rather than just a journeyman championship mid level striker. He has made 'League 1 Liam' Cooper into a decent premier league centreback and it is interesting when fans say the Bielsa system protects players like Liam and others and makes them llook better than they are and how they'd struggle at other teams yet then seem to want the manager to either change the way we play or get rid of the manager completely.

Fans need to get behind Bielsa. It was fine giving out all the love, doing murals etc when everythig was going right but how about a bit of loyalty when a show of support is needed? Bielsa is not like other managers, he won't just stick around for the paycheck, if he feels unwanted he will simply leave and I for one dread to think what will happen if he does as I can't see any avaialble manager doing better with the players he has. Yes we may need to give him some better players but equally he has given us better players than we thought we had and better football than I ever thought I'd see us playing.
Post Reply