The next generation

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Cjay
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The next generation

Post by Cjay »

So Angus Kinnear said in his notes that to cut a long story short the club don't want to buy players because they first of all don't feel that those players may be a large improvement on the kids like Bate and Gelhardt and Hjelde.

And second of all because they don't want to block the path of those players to the first team.

Let's analyse that for a moment.

Our recruitment team aren't able to find improvement on kids with minimal first team experience? In the entire footballing world we can't find players significantly more suited to making a consistent and higher immediate impact than a few teenagers? This doesn't seem to be a compliment for the u23s and more a criticism of the recruitment team Angus?

Let's not kid ourselves here, whilst our young lads have done well on occasion their are players the same age and younger playing high level international football and taking the top European leagues by storm on a weekly basis. We have not seen anything like that from our lads.

Which brings me on to point 2.

This pathway to the first team that Angus is desperate to block.

In a season where we have had unprecedented injuries. A season that has seen almost every member of our first team squad miss atleast 3 or 4 league games minimum and many have missed much more.

In a season like that the u23s who we are desperate not to block the pathway for have played . . . . . About 790 minutes which is about 9 matches give or take.

That is between 9 of them which is an average of 87 minutes or so.

In reality, 4 of the 9 haven't played 1 half of football. . McKinstry, McCarron, Greenwood and Bate.

Hjelde has played 60 or so minutes.

Cresswell, Summerville and Drameh have played less than 1 and a half matches.

And Gelhardt the most highly rated of the lot, in a season whereby our 2 most senior strikers have missed 20 matches between them he has managed about 3.5 minutes worth of matches.

The issue with what Kinnear says about this Patchway is it doesn't match up to reality.

Bielsa is on record as saying he would always prefer to use senior players when he can. Doesn't sound to radical but what he means is he will play those senior players in unnatural roles if he has to before using u23s in their natural ones.

Dan James will play as a striker, Luke Ayling will play Central defence, Stuart Dallas will play midfield or full back, Rodrigo will play centre midfield.

Leo Hjelde did well vs West Ham in the league, immediately dropped so that Llorente and Struijk could play cb, fine that is natural roles, but Hjelde can and has played left back, did he play left back vs Newcastle? Nope, Dallas did

Joe Gelhardt did well vs Tottenham in his first league start, didn't score but was a threat who drew praise on the main Spurs forum and social media for his performance. Did he start the next game? Nope he was on the bench and didn't see a minute of football until 3 whole matches had passes by, he then played less than 10 minutes vs Chelsea.

Charlie Cresswell did well vs West Ham, then he wasn't seen again for literally months.

The fact is that our path to the first team is a bit of a myth.

Our u23s are a last resort, that isnt me being dramatic it is proven by facts and the managers own words. Bielsa is on record for saying as much and admitting that injuries are the only reason for the u23s seeing so much option.

No matter how the club want to spin it this wasn't some masterplan, it was circumstances.

If we signed senior players then unless it's another JKA disaster I absolutely guarantee that that player would play more than every single u23 combined.

No doubt about it, unless that player is another Orta special or breaks his leg then he would play much much more than any u23.

He could be pretty crap but as long as he runs and does what he is told then he will start as will any senior squad member before any u23 player.

Furthermore Bielsa has already publicly said he wants more players let's not forget. We know Bielsa wants more players, he has said it all January. So this u23 nonsense Kinnear spouts isn't what Bielsa is saying. It may be that the club can't get Bielsa his targets (something again Bielsa has acknowledged before) but if we sign nobody it won't be because Bielsa desperately wants to keep the way clear for the u23s.

It will be because the club couldn't get the job done.
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Re: The next generation

Post by 1964white »

Cjay wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:42 pm So Angus Kinnear said in his notes that to cut a long story short the club don't want to buy players because they first of all don't feel that those players may be a large improvement on the kids like Bate and Gelhardt and Hjelde.

And second of all because they don't want to block the path of those players to the first team.

Let's analyse that for a moment.

Our recruitment team aren't able to find improvement on kids with minimal first team experience? In the entire footballing world we can't find players significantly more suited to making a consistent and higher immediate impact than a few teenagers? This doesn't seem to be a compliment for the u23s and more a criticism of the recruitment team Angus?

Let's not kid ourselves here, whilst our young lads have done well on occasion their are players the same age and younger playing high level international football and taking the top European leagues by storm on a weekly basis. We have not seen anything like that from our lads.

Which brings me on to point 2.

This pathway to the first team that Angus is desperate to block.

In a season where we have had unprecedented injuries. A season that has seen almost every member of our first team squad miss atleast 3 or 4 league games minimum and many have missed much more.

In a season like that the u23s who we are desperate not to block the pathway for have played . . . . . About 790 minutes which is about 9 matches give or take.

That is between 9 of them which is an average of 87 minutes or so.

In reality, 4 of the 9 haven't played 1 half of football. . McKinstry, McCarron, Greenwood and Bate.

Hjelde has played 60 or so minutes.

Cresswell, Summerville and Drameh have played less than 1 and a half matches.

And Gelhardt the most highly rated of the lot, in a season whereby our 2 most senior strikers have missed 20 matches between them he has managed about 3.5 minutes worth of matches.

The issue with what Kinnear says about this Patchway is it doesn't match up to reality.

Bielsa is on record as saying he would always prefer to use senior players when he can. Doesn't sound to radical but what he means is he will play those senior players in unnatural roles if he has to before using u23s in their natural ones.

Dan James will play as a striker, Luke Ayling will play Central defence, Stuart Dallas will play midfield or full back, Rodrigo will play centre midfield.

Leo Hjelde did well vs West Ham in the league, immediately dropped so that Llorente and Struijk could play cb, fine that is natural roles, but Hjelde can and has played left back, did he play left back vs Newcastle? Nope, Dallas did

Joe Gelhardt did well vs Tottenham in his first league start, didn't score but was a threat who drew praise on the main Spurs forum and social media for his performance. Did he start the next game? Nope he was on the bench and didn't see a minute of football until 3 whole matches had passes by, he then played less than 10 minutes vs Chelsea.

Charlie Cresswell did well vs West Ham, then he wasn't seen again for literally months.

The fact is that our path to the first team is a bit of a myth.

Our u23s are a last resort, that isnt me being dramatic it is proven by facts and the managers own words. Bielsa is on record for saying as much and admitting that injuries are the only reason for the u23s seeing so much option.

No matter how the club want to spin it this wasn't some masterplan, it was circumstances.

If we signed senior players then unless it's another JKA disaster I absolutely guarantee that that player would play more than every single u23 combined.

No doubt about it, unless that player is another Orta special or breaks his leg then he would play much much more than any u23.

He could be pretty crap but as long as he runs and does what he is told then he will start as will any senior squad member before any u23 player.

Furthermore Bielsa has already publicly said he wants more players let's not forget. We know Bielsa wants more players, he has said it all January. So this u23 nonsense Kinnear spouts isn't what Bielsa is saying. It may be that the club can't get Bielsa his targets (something again Bielsa has acknowledged before) but if we sign nobody it won't be because Bielsa desperately wants to keep the way clear for the u23s.

It will be because the club couldn't get the job done.
:rol: :rol: :rol: :rol: :rol: :rol:
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Re: The next generation

Post by SG90 »

Well said CJay.

According to Angus the Tory, signing Aaronson would block the pathway of young players. No, playing average players like Ayling, Dallas, James etc in multiple positions over talented youngsters is blocking the development. Even players like Shackleton, who is 22 now, have barely had any proper first team football. Dropping Gelhardt, Bate and Hjelde into the u23s will only hamper their development, not improve it.

And they can't use our position as an excuse either, because last season we were comfortably safe from the drop and Bielsa didn't play a single teenager.
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Re: The next generation

Post by 1964white »

Cjay wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:42 pm Leo Hjelde did well vs West Ham in the league, immediately dropped so that Llorente and Struijk could play cb, fine that is natural roles, but Hjelde can and has played left back, did he play left back vs Newcastle? Nope, Dallas did

Joe Gelhardt did well vs Tottenham in his first league start, didn't score but was a threat who drew praise on the main Spurs forum and social media for his performance. Did he start the next game? Nope he was on the bench and didn't see a minute of football until 3 whole matches had passes by, he then played less than 10 minutes vs Chelsea.
Telling mistakes regarding two of our best young players & probably a huge reason why we lost to Newcastle.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Mountain »

But didn't Leeds break a record this season for the most teenagers introduced?

Sure, it was in response to an injury crisis, and sure they didn't get extended runs...but isn't that usually how teenagers are brought in? The "youngster gets 1 appearance in a season" is very common, as I said elsewhere it's pretty much how Ferguson brought in the so called class of '92, Beckham, Giggs, Butt and others all got 1 or 2 appearance in 1 or 2 seasons. That may break down to 1.5 minutes per match but I don't think he got blamed for that.

I think we're looking very hard for reasons to attack Bielsa when we say he broke the record but he did it for the wrong reason and the huge numbers of teenagers brought in should have been brought in for longer runs.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

1964white wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:44 pm :rol: :rol: :rol: :rol: :rol: :rol:
Turned into a longer analysis than I intended :|
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Re: The next generation

Post by SG90 »

For the record, I'm all in favour of playing youngsters and I'd rather we gave them a chance that constantly spending money. My point is that WE DON'T play them, regardless of signings. Is Bielsa afraid they might be better than some of his favourites perhaps?
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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

Mountain wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:50 pm But didn't Leeds break a record this season for the most teenagers introduced?

Sure, it was in response to an injury crisis, and sure they didn't get extended runs...but isn't that usually how teenagers are brought in? The "youngster gets 1 appearance in a season" is very common, as I said elsewhere it's pretty much how Ferguson brought in the so called class of '92, Beckham, Giggs, Butt and others all got 1 or 2 appearance in 1 or 2 seasons. That may break down to 1.5 minutes per match but I don't think he got blamed for that.

I think we're looking very hard for reasons to attack Bielsa when we say he broke the record but he did it for the wrong reason and the huge numbers of teenagers brought in should have been brought in for longer runs.
But were the Manchester United board claiming they couldn't sign players because of not wanting to block the pathway? No they signed senior players also and used them to mentor and bring up the quality of there senior squad whilst blooding the kids.

Also I doubt Manure had as few senior players as us and as bad an injury crisis. The opportunity for u23s this season for us is probably greater than it has been for almost any u23 squad in Premier league history.

Very different circumstances. Look how much O'Leary used his and compare that to Bielsa, both had injury crisises at times but reacted very different.

Introducing youngsters gradually is OK but don't try and pretend it was some masterplan that prevents you from signing senior players.

This isn't an attack on Bielsa actually, do I agree with everything he does? No.

But what riled me was Kinnear.

I just used Bielsa as evidence.
Last edited by Cjay on Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The next generation

Post by SG90 »

Look at Aston Villa, spent a lot this season, yet Ramsey starts every game for them and Chukwumeka is involved a lot too.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

SG90 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:50 pm Well said CJay.

According to Angus the Tory, signing Aaronson would block the pathway of young players. No, playing average players like Ayling, Dallas, James etc in multiple positions over talented youngsters is blocking the development. Even players like Shackleton, who is 22 now, have barely had any proper first team football. Dropping Gelhardt, Bate and Hjelde into the u23s will only hamper their development, not improve it.

And they can't use our position as an excuse either, because last season we were comfortably safe from the drop and Bielsa didn't play a single teenager.
Exactly.

The fact is the boss and the board are saying different things.

Bielsa wants senior players, Bielsa is very open with his hesitation to use the u23s and is upfront that he won't unless he has to, agree? No, but least he is honest.

The board almost totally opposite
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Re: The next generation

Post by 1964white »

Mountain wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:50 pm But didn't Leeds break a record this season for the most teenagers introduced?

Sure, it was in response to an injury crisis, and sure they didn't get extended runs...but isn't that usually how teenagers are brought in? The "youngster gets 1 appearance in a season" is very common, as I said elsewhere it's pretty much how Ferguson brought in the so called class of '92, Beckham, Giggs, Butt and others all got 1 or 2 appearance in 1 or 2 seasons. That may break down to 1.5 minutes per match but I don't think he got blamed for that.

I think we're looking very hard for reasons to attack Bielsa when we say he broke the record but he did it for the wrong reason and the huge numbers of teenagers brought in should have been brought in for longer runs.
Didn't Hjede deserve to keep his place after two fine performances vs West Ham?

Would have made sense, so Dallas could play in midfield, especially with Forshaw missing.

Aren't we struggling for goals from a proper striker? We've got one in Gelhardt, he'd have made the barcodes CB's tasks much harder plus Joe would be in the right place at the right time as he is a natural instinctive poacher.
By the time young Joe was introduced, our creative outlets Raphinha & Harrison were shattered.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

Just to be clear though yes Bielsa is used as evidence but this post is a reaction to Kinnear.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ek-3537863
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Re: The next generation

Post by SG90 »

One thing I don't understand is, why are players like Bogusz, McCalmont, Drameh, Poveda written off as having no future when they're playing at a much higher level than the likes of Greenwood and Summerville?
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Re: The next generation

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YABT
1 - Revie
2 - Bielsa
3 - Wilkinson

THE LEEDS LEGENDS ... never to be forgotten

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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

SG90 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:18 pm One thing I don't understand is, why are players like Bogusz, McCalmont, Drameh, Poveda written off as having no future when they're playing at a much higher level than the likes of Greenwood and Summerville?
Maybe they asked to leave?

Bielsa alluded to as much when discussing Drameh.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Cjay »

faaip wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:18 pmYABT
One thing I am not is a troll :duno:
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Re: The next generation

Post by SG90 »

Cjay wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:27 pm Maybe they asked to leave?

Bielsa alluded to as much when discussing Drameh.
I don't blame them. They're not going to get any chances and the u23s is a dreadful standard.
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Re: The next generation

Post by Muppet the Cat »

faaip wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:18 pmYABT
YABT 🤔

The Young Americans Business Trust ?????
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Re: The next generation

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Muppet the Cat wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:31 pm YABT 🤔

The Young Americans Business Trust ?????
Code just to make me feel better about this forum atm
1 - Revie
2 - Bielsa
3 - Wilkinson

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Re: The next generation

Post by whiteswan »

Cjay wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:03 pm Just to be clear though yes Bielsa is used as evidence but this post is a reaction to Kinnear.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ek-3537863
What a load of old Tosh from Angus. He ought to be in politics...
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