The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by SaraM »

Cjay wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:35 pm I don't think that bit is fair tbh.

Unproven at this level long term? Absolutely.

But fundamentally the Red Bull network is about player development, its basically Orta and Radz's wet dream.

And Marsch worked in it for years and helped in the development of many players who went on to play top level European football including

Dominik Szoboszlai whose at RB Leipzig
Enoch Mewpu at Brighton
Hwang Hee Chan whose at Wolves
Patson Daka at Leicester
Karim Adeyemi whose now at Dortmund
Tyler Adams whose here.

And other young talents at Red Bull who are expected to go on to big things like Benjamin Sesko and Luca Sukic.

He even played a small part in the development of Erling Haaland who has only good things to say and still speaks to Marsch till this day.

Jesse and I had a great relationship. We still talk on the phone sometimes. He was an amazing manager for me, and we had some great memories together," said Haaland

"I am lucky to have gotten to know him as a coach, but also as a person. He was very good with me.
As you saw, I was very happy on and off the pitch in Salzburg. Even though it was just six months, it was a good time. He is an amazing guy."

Player development is probably the reason he got our job tbh and is something Marsch does have a very good reputation for.
What level were those players already at when Marsch first encountered them? How much direct input did he have into their progress? Over what timescales?
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Kennyb41 »

Yeah i like that for a reference point, Stoke 2018.

We are still waiting for that, it'll be interesting when and if ever it appears.

Like my Richter scale (which is now at 2.5 after Soton) i'm going to refer to it when we actually look like we've played someone off the park.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by danhirons »

SaraM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:50 pm If the team is better because we have finally strengthened the squad, that is not a measure either of Marsch's ability as a coach, nor of his standing in the game.

We're still waiting for his equivalent to Stoke 2018, where we see a convincing performance for 90 minutes with a clear indication of how his system will work, and how he will get the best out of the players.

He is unproven at this level, and unproven as a coach who can develop players and get the best out of them. How can that not be a step down? 14 games in and much of the fanbase are unconvinced... when is it all going to come together?
when will we stop comparing managers to Bielsa and what Bielsa has done?!

Bielsa is an absolute maverick coach with some amazing ideas and some not so good ones...comparing anyone to him is never going to work and quite frankly everyone should stop constantly trying to do it...

Bielsa was fantastic yes and we had a clear strategy under him...but ultimately that strategy was not working the last 6 months of his reign and it looked like he was going to get us relegated

Marsch may not have such a defined playing style or strategy or be such a tactical genius, but that doesn't matter and we will (to be honest) struggle to ever have someone like Bielsa in this regard. But hopefully he will bring other things to the table and get us the results that we need on a consistent basis.

I would say Marsch hasn't given us a Stoke 2018...but he also hasn't given us a Liverpool 6-0 or an Everton and Villa 3-0 (destructions of the team). Let's just give him a chance and stop comparing him to Bielsa as the two just aren't comparable
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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danhirons wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am when will we stop comparing managers to Bielsa and what Bielsa has done?!

Bielsa is an absolute maverick coach with some amazing ideas and some not so good ones...comparing anyone to him is never going to work and quite frankly everyone should stop constantly trying to do it...

Bielsa was fantastic yes and we had a clear strategy under him...but ultimately that strategy was not working the last 6 months of his reign and it looked like he was going to get us relegated

Marsch may not have such a defined playing style or strategy or be such a tactical genius, but that doesn't matter and we will (to be honest) struggle to ever have someone like Bielsa in this regard. But hopefully he will bring other things to the table and get us the results that we need on a consistent basis.

I would say Marsch hasn't given us a Stoke 2018...but he also hasn't given us a Liverpool 6-0 or an Everton and Villa 3-0 (destructions of the team). Let's just give him a chance and stop comparing him to Bielsa as the two just aren't comparable
Sorry, but the comparisons are inevitable because he was brought in as an upgrade, to supposedly do what Bielsa couldn't. The validity of that decision, and of his appointment, rests on there being some discernible progress. I've yet to see it. We've looked a mess for the majority of Marsch's games so far.

The mantra has been, next season, when he's got his own players. He's been fully backed, so there are no excuses now, yet we're throwing away games like Southampton. Let's see how we fare against Chelsea.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by faaip »

Would a narrow defeat v Chelsea be considered a good result? JM's team capitulated 3-0 last season at ER after Bielsa had given them a hell of a game at the Bridge, the team for the latter being less injury affected than the former
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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SaraM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:44 am Sorry, but the comparisons are inevitable because he was brought in as an upgrade, to supposedly do what Bielsa couldn't. The validity of that decision, and of his appointment, rests on there being some discernible progress. I've yet to see it. We've looked a mess for the majority of Marsch's games so far.

The mantra has been, next season, when he's got his own players. He's been fully backed, so there are no excuses now, yet we're throwing away games like Southampton. Let's see how we fare against Chelsea.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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faaip wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:46 am Would a narrow defeat v Chelsea be considered a good result? JM's team capitulated 3-0 last season at ER after Bielsa had given them a hell of a game at the Bridge, the team for the latter being less injury affected than the former
A narrow defeat with an excellent performance wouldn't trouble me at all :tup:

A win - over the fcking moon.

A draw - pleasantly surprised.

A trouncing whilst getting ripped a new arsehole and the dick formation looking in absolute tatters and the team chasing shadows being given the runaround men v boys and us looking like we've no idea how to get a hold of the ball let alone keep a hold of it and no chances on goal - well.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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What he said. ^
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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The shaft has attained some degree of tumescence, it's the bolllocks at the back we need to attend to.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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SaraM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:21 am The shaft has attained some degree of tumescence, it's the bolllocks at the back we need to attend to.
I've always maintained don't judge a defence til it's had 10 games to bed in, we never got that last season.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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danhirons wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am when will we stop comparing managers to Bielsa and what Bielsa has done?!

Bielsa is an absolute maverick coach with some amazing ideas and some not so good ones...comparing anyone to him is never going to work and quite frankly everyone should stop constantly trying to do it...

Bielsa was fantastic yes and we had a clear strategy under him...but ultimately that strategy was not working the last 6 months of his reign and it looked like he was going to get us relegated

Marsch may not have such a defined playing style or strategy or be such a tactical genius, but that doesn't matter and we will (to be honest) struggle to ever have someone like Bielsa in this regard. But hopefully he will bring other things to the table and get us the results that we need on a consistent basis.

I would say Marsch hasn't given us a Stoke 2018...but he also hasn't given us a Liverpool 6-0 or an Everton and Villa 3-0 (destructions of the team). Let's just give him a chance and stop comparing him to Bielsa as the two just aren't comparable
It's funny you should ask this Dan, coz yours truly was only thinking abart it tother day.

PB - not the best footballer, but in the spine of the team - quite majestic (when at 100%)
LC - clumsy fcking c**t, but in the spine of the team - positional sense and reading the play - quite good.
KP - not the best box to box midfielder - but in the spine of the team - just superb at at that lone role, 100% doing what Bert asked of him.

Now then, i read somewhere that big Jesse might be lured away by the offer of the USA job, if all goes tits up here coming to the WC, our crowd last year showed signs of turning on him and some were chanting for the return of the Messiah.

Now what if that was to happen again ? Could we see a massive boardroom argument between Radz and our resident clown ? And the clown threatening to quit if Radz succumbs to the crowd and decides himself he might go cap in hand to Argentina.

That to me would be the best definition of killing two birds with one stone i ever could imagine.

It also got me wondering what Bert might be able to do with our new signings to pull Orta out the s**t again.

Anyway, twas just a thought.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Finnatic »

MB wasn’t in charge for the 0-3 defeat v Villa JM was, but he might have still been in Wetherby.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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SaraM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:44 am Sorry, but the comparisons are inevitable because he was brought in as an upgrade, to supposedly do what Bielsa couldn't. The validity of that decision, and of his appointment, rests on there being some discernible progress. I've yet to see it. We've looked a mess for the majority of Marsch's games so far.

The mantra has been, next season, when he's got his own players. He's been fully backed, so there are no excuses now, yet we're throwing away games like Southampton. Let's see how we fare against Chelsea.
"We're still waiting for his equivalent to Stoke 2018, where we see a convincing performance for 90 minutes with a clear indication of how his system will work, and how he will get the best out of the players."

Was what you said...

Nobody is or should be waiting for this

We should be waiting for an improvement in results - which is ultimately what JM has been brought in for - not to impart a style similar to Bielsa and to dismantle a poor championship side.

Not all managers impart such a distinct style on their team as Bielsa did - and I don't expect JM to do this. However, if results improve (as they seem to be, although still very early days) then it doesn't really matter

Ultimately, as long as we're away from the relegation zone, JM will be doing a better job than Bielsa was. If we're dangling around the relegation zone again then of course he won't be doing a better job.

4 points from the first 6 is a good start. let's get behind him rather than constantly berating him for not being Bielsa
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Finnatic wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:57 am MB wasn’t in charge for the 0-3 defeat v Villa JM was, but he might have still been in Wetherby.
you've had me! Feel free to pick any on of the other 7 or 8 spankings we received under Bielsa last season then :)
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Kennyb41 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:38 am It's funny you should ask this Dan, coz yours truly was only thinking abart it tother day.

PB - not the best footballer, but in the spine of the team - quite majestic (when at 100%)
LC - clumsy fcking c**t, but in the spine of the team - positional sense and reading the play - quite good.
KP - not the best box to box midfielder - but in the spine of the team - just superb at at that lone role, 100% doing what Bert asked of him.

Now then, i read somewhere that big Jesse might be lured away by the offer of the USA job, if all goes tits up here coming to the WC, our crowd last year showed signs of turning on him and some were chanting for the return of the Messiah.

Now what if that was to happen again ? Could we see a massive boardroom argument between Radz and our resident clown ? And the clown threatening to quit if Radz succumbs to the crowd and decides himself he might go cap in hand to Argentina.

That to me would be the best definition of killing two birds with one stone i ever could imagine.

It also got me wondering what Bert might be able to do with our new signings to pull Orta out the s**t again.

Anyway, twas just a thought.
Obviously Bielsa did an amazing job improving players like KP - although we will never know what level KP would have reached under another manager but probably not as high...

I think Radz and Orta have quite a good relationship - if it survived last season, I think it can survive sacking JM this season if need be.

Although Bielsa obviously improved the players quality/performance on the pitch, I think JM will be good at the personal side of things, making the players motivated, hungry and confident, and hopefully that will have the same effect
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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SaraM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:17 pm What level were those players already at when Marsch first encountered them? How much direct input did he have into their progress? Over what timescales?
At RB Salzburg.

All of them were young, some just teenagers.

Karim Adeyemi was only 17/18, I suppose was maybe like Gelhardt, Marsch gave him his debut and then made him a regular the following season.

2 years they worked together.

Daka and Szoboszlai were already part of the Salzburg first team picture but were only bit partners.

Daka was 21 and had only scored 3 league goals before Marsch and by the time he left it was over 50.

Szoboszlai was 18/19 when Marsch arrived and similar to Daka was only a bit parter.

Under Marsch he became a key player managing double figures in league goals and assists.

Enoch Mwepu was similar to Daka, similar age, similar circumstances. Marsch made all of them first team regulars and worked with them for 2 years roughly except for Szoboszlai who went to Leipzig and had another 6 months or so with Marsch.

He only worked with Haaland for 6 months as Erling said but clearly had enough of an impact on him for Haaland to go public with there relationship.

He gave Luka Sucic his debut when he was 17/18 and gave him chances, not massive minutes but it was his start in first team football.

He also gave Sesko his debut when he was 16/17.

Only worked with the last 2 for 12 months or so but still gave them a chance at a very young age.

Tyler Adams Marsch gave him his debut when he was just 16 and they worked together for 3 years until Adams left for Leipzig and then they worked together again whilst Marsch was there similar to Szoboszlai.

So for most of them atleast 2 years including making them first team regulars when they were barely out of there teens or not in some cases.

He was giving debuts to 16,17,18 year olds.

You can't work for the Red Bull network if you don't develop players, it's there entire strategy.

And Marsch did help develop many of them.

Haven't included Kristensen or Nicolas Siewald or Brenden Aaronson or Mo Camara or others who were regular under Marsch at Salzburg whilst fitting the late teen very early 20s criteria.

Of the 17 players who played 25 games atleast under Marsch in his last season at Salzburg 11 were 22 or younger.

It's the one area imo he can't really be criticised as its probably the one area he is actually more successful than Bielsa.

His faith in youth.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

danhirons wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am when will we stop comparing managers to Bielsa and what Bielsa has done?!
I think it will be relevant to compare the managers until we get to a point where Marsch has proven himself, one way or another.

In the board replacing a manager they are effectively saying we think this new manager will be better than the previous one. As such the judgement is also a judgement against the board.

Bielsa was lucky in that in judging him we were judging him against the previous managers who had all fairly much failed and generally failed to get anywhere near what Bielsa did out of the same players. The bar was low when Bielsa came in and he blew us away by how well he got the same players to play. If Marsch had come in, instead of Bielsa, it might be that he could have moulded the players over that summer and got them to produce the 'Stoke' performance.

I think where we are with Marsch though is that we still don't really know if he is any good. His record in management is a hard one to judge. His talent in improving players is also hard to judge given that he worked for Red Bull who have the reputation for spotting good players who seem to develop really well whoever is the manager. His talent in spotting a good player is also at this point too early to judge as whilst Aaronsen looks promising RK is looking a bit iffy and Adams has done okay without really shining.

It will I feel be a while before we really get to a point where it is easier to judge Marsch.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:49 am He was giving debuts to 16,17,18 year olds.

You can't work for the Red Bull network if you don't develop players, it's there entire strategy.

And Marsch did help develop many of them.

Of the 17 players who played 25 games atleast under Marsch in his last season at Salzburg 11 were 22 or younger.

It's the one area imo he can't really be criticised as its probably the one area he is actually more successful than Bielsa.

His faith in youth.
It is still very subjective though cos if the roster (or squad for our non american posters) at Salzburg say had 30 players and 20 of them were aged 22 years or younger then as a manager you don't have much choice but to play them. Contrast that with the squad that Bielsa and Marsch have had at Leeds then there are considerably less younger players at their disposal and as such by simple maths you can't play as many.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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weasel wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:56 pm I think it will be relevant to compare the managers until we get to a point where Marsch has proven himself, one way or another.

In the board replacing a manager they are effectively saying we think this new manager will be better than the previous one. As such the judgement is also a judgement against the board.

Bielsa was lucky in that in judging him we were judging him against the previous managers who had all fairly much failed and generally failed to get anywhere near what Bielsa did out of the same players. The bar was low when Bielsa came in and he blew us away by how well he got the same players to play. If Marsch had come in, instead of Bielsa, it might be that he could have moulded the players over that summer and got them to produce the 'Stoke' performance.

I think where we are with Marsch though is that we still don't really know if he is any good. His record in management is a hard one to judge. His talent in improving players is also hard to judge given that he worked for Red Bull who have the reputation for spotting good players who seem to develop really well whoever is the manager. His talent in spotting a good player is also at this point too early to judge as whilst Aaronsen looks promising RK is looking a bit iffy and Adams has done okay without really shining.

It will I feel be a while before we really get to a point where it is easier to judge Marsch.
Put completely into perspective as per ^

You've also got me thinking now, was Berts improvement with the players really that impressive, or were the previous managers just useless, maybe Dallas Klich etc just weren't being played correctly.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

Kennyb41 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:14 pm Put completely into perspective as per ^

You've also got me thinking now, was Berts improvement with the players really that impressive, or were the previous managers just useless, maybe Dallas Klich etc just weren't being played correctly.
There were a couple of excellent performances under Christiansen (might have been v Sunderland and Forest but could be wrong). I think those performances showed Bielsa that there was the potential in the squad. What Bielsa did though was to be able to bring out the best (and likely better than even they thought they could play) out of so many players. Usually a manager goes in and maybe 2 or 3 players look better under the new manager, very rarely (if ever) a whole team.
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