Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

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1964white
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Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by 1964white »

Tonight's EFL results says it all

Peterborough United 3-0 Tottenham U21
Ipswich Town 2-0 Arsenal U21
Rochdale 1-0 Liverpool U21
Barnsley 2-0 Newcastle United U21

League One/Two teams beating the top U21 sides.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by 1964white »

No comment from those who think our U21s are ready for Premier League football.

Young players from the top six clubs struggled against League 1/2 opposition last night.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by Muppet the Cat »

It’s a significant step up, 64.

Whilst, some of the U21 youngsters have undoubtedly got the skills they are often up against battle hardened professionals who have been around the block in those leagues and know the tricks of the trade required to grind out a result at that level.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by Chilli D »

1964white wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:09 am No comment from those who think our U21s are ready for Premier League football.

Young players from the top six clubs struggled against League 1/2 opposition last night.
64, a 15 year old made his PL debut for Arsenal at the weekend so to say that no U21's are ever ready for the PL is wide of the mark.
Some (only a few) are good enough at a young age. We have Archie Gray, Sonny Perkins is another who could make his PL debut this season.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by 1964white »

Over the last three seasons, Struijk is the only outfield U21 to cement a place in the first team, due to loss of form Pascal struggled last season & was consequently dropped playing just over twenty games. Would have been interesting to see how many games our big man would have played if we had a LB available. Personally I'd prefer Pascal to be in our team as a CB.

Gelhardt has done very well but he is still considered as as bench player by Marsch as he was by Bielsa too.

The PL is a massive step-up from competing with boys every week.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by 1964white »

Chilli D wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:01 am 64, a 15 year old made his PL debut for Arsenal at the weekend so to say that no U21's are ever ready for the PL is wide of the mark.
Some (only a few) are good enough at a young age. We have Archie Gray, Sonny Perkins is another who could make his PL debut this season.
Arteta obviously considers Nwaneria a real talent, but you have to remember he was probably on the bench because the gooners had four or five first-teamers unavailable due to injuries. Nwaneria was also Arsenal's 5th substitute in the 92nd minute, unsure if he even got a kick of the ball in the three minutes he was on the pitch.

I recall Marcelo bringing on McKinstry on at Spurs in the last minute, never to be seen again. Now at Motherwell on loan.

Unless we are absolutely desperate for personnel, I doubt Gray or Perkins for all their talent will start in the Premier League this season, they may get cup appearances.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by faaip »

I'm a fan of the Leeds youth/academy. Quality players all and any of them can step up and do a job....
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by andrewjohnsmith »

We have a few that are very talented and could make a step up to the first team squad this season. Putting 11 youngsters out against a league team is a different subject to integrating one or two of the bench. Perkins and Gyabi are the best we have right now and I think either one of them could play a small role in the first team squad.

If you threw our entire U21's line up out there though, they would get beat. We have some good options in midfield and attack and but several of the usual starting XI are far from first team football, especially at the back. None of our defensive options are ready for the step up.

It's a different discussion to say a full 21's team would get beat by a L1 team, than just to say that 2 or 3 of these players could offer an option from the bench.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by Lumiukko »

andrewjohnsmith wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:23 pm We have a few that are very talented and could make a step up to the first team squad this season. Putting 11 youngsters out against a league team is a different subject to integrating one or two of the bench. Perkins and Gyabi are the best we have right now and I think either one of them could play a small role in the first team squad.

If you threw our entire U21's line up out there though, they would get beat. We have some good options in midfield and attack and but several of the usual starting XI are far from first team football, especially at the back. None of our defensive options are ready for the step up.

It's a different discussion to say a full 21's team would get beat by a L1 team, than just to say that 2 or 3 of these players could offer an option from the bench.
Well said Andrew. The exercise of playing a full U21 team against L1 type opposition is simply to give them some experience of "grown-ups' football and assessing their aptitude at that level. Absolute world of difference than bringing one or two into our full senior team which you would expect at least 9/10 times beat a L1 team (caveat though our history in the League/FA cups not always suggests that).
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by Kennyb41 »

CC just had a good game for England 21's
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by lufc1304 »

Cresswell will, I have no doubt, step up and be a first team regular. Getting blooded in the Championship at the Den is perfect for his development, lots of game time and nowhere to hide. He'll come back a much more rounded player and will integrate seamlessly into the first team squad. Others maybe have a bit more to go, but we do have some very promising young players. But, as others have said, a full team of them would probably get beaten by a L1 side too.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by faaip »

lufc1304 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:00 am Cresswell will, I have no doubt, step up and be a first team regular. Getting blooded in the Championship at the Den is perfect for his development, lots of game time and nowhere to hide. He'll come back a much more rounded player and will integrate seamlessly into the first team squad. Others maybe have a bit more to go, but we do have some very promising young players. But, as others have said, a full team of them would probably get beaten by a L1 side too.
Not something I'd like to bet on, I think it's a toss of a coin if our 11 is made up of those that are coming through.

Klaeson
Drameh
Carole
Gyabi
Cresswell
Hjelde
Summerville
Gray
Perkins
Gelhardt
Gnonto
Joseph
Greenwood
Miller
Coleman
Christie
Bate

is an 17 man squad that could compete in lg 1 if played as a unit consistantly, One off games are a different beast, especially if the team put out is a bit pick and mix. Our U21's struggled last season due to the injury crisis that badly affected the first team too, there was a definite knock down effect.

The word team is key.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by lufc1304 »

faaip wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:43 am Not something I'd like to bet on, I think it's a toss of a coin if our 11 is made up of those that are coming through.

Klaeson
Drameh
Carole
Gyabi
Cresswell
Hjelde
Summerville
Gray
Perkins
Gelhardt
Gnonto
Joseph
Greenwood
Miller
Coleman
Christie
Bate

is an 17 man squad that could compete in lg 1 if played as a unit consistantly, One off games are a different beast, especially if the team put out is a bit pick and mix. Our U21's struggled last season due to the injury crisis that badly affected the first team too, there was a definite knock down effect.

The word team is key.
On paper, that looks a strong panel. But, as you say, the key thing would be them playing together on a consistent basis. Cobbling a team together which is a mix of 18s, 23s and first team fringe players would be asking for a humping. I don't know what the mix was in those identified in the OP but if they were a similar mixed bag, then a poor result was, perhaps, inevitable.

We certainly have a few that could step up and do a job. Whether they are ready to do so on a consistent basis remains to be seen.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by lufc1304 »

P.S no Charlie Allen, has his progress stalled?
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by faaip »

lufc1304 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:51 am P.S no Charlie Allen, has his progress stalled?
He'd certainly get into a larger squad as would Max Dean both are a long way down the forward pecking order... But they're needed if we want to run three squads. We know what happened when we forwent squad under the first team when Bates/Cellino and GFH we're in charge


A strong youth set up is key to us staying in the prem irrespective of whether some never actually make the first team...
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by lufc1304 »

faaip wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 am He'd certainly get into a larger squad as would Max Dean both are a long way down the forward pecking order... But they're needed if we want to run three squads. We know what happened when we forwent squad under the first team when Bates/Cellino and GFH we're in charge


A strong youth set up is key to us staying in the prem irrespective of whether some never actually make the first team...
No argument from me, we haven't the financial clout to buy in first team ready talent unchecked, have to hope we can promote from within. But we all know that takes time (along with a measure of luck), and fans generally lack patience. Myself included, if I'm honest.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by faaip »

lufc1304 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:45 am No argument from me, we haven't the financial clout to buy in first team ready talent unchecked, have to hope we can promote from within. But we all know that takes time (along with a measure of luck), and fans generally lack patience. Myself included, if I'm honest.
I just understand it will either happen or it won't and it's often down to opportunity rather than talent. Rads/Orta rebuilt the youth set up from the ground up but originally it was built with getting out of the Championship in mind. when we achieved that well ahead of schedule we needed a second rebuild and that's where most fans fall down in their logic. That's why we've moved those players on without them threatening the first team not they weren't good enough at the time of signing. We still had a successful youth set up with a number of those players coming through though

This rebuild is only 2 years old really, the likes of Gnonto/Perkins/Gyabi etc are a step up in class for the most part from the ones collected when we were in the lower division.

As a huge fan of American football I'm very familier with next man up, and that kinda teaches you patience..
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by SG90 »

1964white wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:16 am Arteta obviously considers Nwaneria a real talent, but you have to remember he was probably on the bench because the gooners had four or five first-teamers unavailable due to injuries. Nwaneria was also Arsenal's 5th substitute in the 92nd minute, unsure if he even got a kick of the ball in the three minutes he was on the pitch.

I recall Marcelo bringing on McKinstry on at Spurs in the last minute, never to be seen again. Now at Motherwell on loan.

Unless we are absolutely desperate for personnel, I doubt Gray or Perkins for all their talent will start in the Premier League this season, they may get cup appearances.
For all the money we've wasted on hoarding young players, the best two are products of our academy, Cresswell and Gray.

The rest will end up in League One/Championship at a significant loss.
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by andrewjohnsmith »

faaip wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:08 am I just understand it will either happen or it won't and it's often down to opportunity rather than talent. Rads/Orta rebuilt the youth set up from the ground up but originally it was built with getting out of the Championship in mind. when we achieved that well ahead of schedule we needed a second rebuild and that's where most fans fall down in their logic. That's why we've moved those players on without them threatening the first team not they weren't good enough at the time of signing. We still had a successful youth set up with a number of those players coming through though

This rebuild is only 2 years old really, the likes of Gnonto/Perkins/Gyabi etc are a step up in class for the most part from the ones collected when we were in the lower division.

As a huge fan of American football I'm very familier with next man up, and that kinda teaches you patience..
This is a great point that I've heard mention from those in the know (like Phil Hay). The club's stature advanced too quickly for some of our players. Someone like Leif Davis was a great signing when we were in the championship.

We got a really good batch when we got promoted - Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh, Summerville are now good premier league squad players.

This season we have signed higher profile in Perkins and Gyabi. They'll both be comfortable in the premier league in a year or two.

And ... the 6 players I mentioned (if sold) will all bring in big profits. I think we paid about a combined £12million. We could get at least £25 million for them now. (Not to mention the exponential profits we could make over Meslier and Strujik)
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Re: Class difference between U21's & the Premier League.

Post by andrewjohnsmith »

SG90 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:53 am For all the money we've wasted on hoarding young players, the best two are products of our academy, Cresswell and Gray.

The rest will end up in League One/Championship at a significant loss.
It's not wasted. We make exponential gains on a few that far outweigh the minimal losses we make on others.
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