The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Monday 12th August) Wasteful Leeds squander opportunities for opening win

[CUSSIE01]

1 game in & its all doom & gloom again, we created plenty of chances on Saturday and scored 3, hit the crossbar 3 times and had shots deflected luckily. Not perfect but I’m not losing any sleep yet. Long way to go & we’re going up automatically so buckle up it going to be a bumpy ride.

[weasel]

What does 'doesn't do it consistently' mean with regard to Gruev . He was brought into the side last year when Ampadu moved to play at the back and essentially took on that role which was the defensive cog where Kamara had more of a licence to get forward but did little or nothing in offensive terms . Since Ampadu has moved back into midfield it has given Gruev more freedom and from the little that we have seen he clearly has the potential to make a much greater contribution there than Kamara . His two shots from free kicks have produced a goal and hitting the post so he has a shot on him. He got a goal from play in pre season and a couple of near misses and has been involved quite actively in a lot of attacking movements . To me he has the skills and a willingness to do whatever job he is asked by the Manager so why are you so quick to write him off ?

Well said. I think too many have simply come to identify Gruev as solely a DM because that is the rle that he predominantly played last season, and played it very well. I recall Bielsa making Forshaw the no8 and hom having a few shots prior to getting injured. Just because a player has played one way doesn't mean they can't play a different way, KP being the example of a player doing it the other way around and going from box to box to DM. Often a player starts playing in a certain position early on, school age or sometimes even before, and then stick to it until a manager/coach identifies something in them and gets them to play in a different position.

Gruev doesn't need to be popping up in the opposition box all game. Maybe he is better arriving late and being on the edge of the box. A certain poster mentioned about how we'd play if we had prime Lampard or Gerrard but likely those players didn't have that many touches in the opposition box, their speciality being about arriving late and scoring from outside the box.

If Gruev plays a decent length forward pass then likely it goes out wide and we fanny about a bit and then put a cross or shot in. Even with us fannying about it doesn't mean Gruev will have time to get into the box. We saw with Portsmouth's two open play goals that having someone around 25 to 30 yards out in a central position can lead to danger.

So for me I would expect to see Gruev's heatmap showing him covering predominantly a lot of ground from our box to the halfway line. I would then expect a fair bit of him in a central position between the halfway line and to within 30 yards or so of the opposition goal. I would expect to see quite similar with Rothwell although maybe a couple more runs per game into the opposition penalty area as he likes to run with it more than Gruev. I wouldn't expect either to have loads of touches in the opposition box unless they were in there for corners and there was a bit of pinball going on.

[Ellandback1]

Elland is there a source where you can get the figures for ball in play for each half ?

Cheers.

I'll check

[DDB220]

He was the designated free kick and corner taker on Saturday. We shouldn't jump up and down cos he nearly got one on target.

We had 12 corners and god knows how many free kicks - It's safe to say that Gruev is not a 'specialist' set piece taker.

Yes, he scored a free kick against Norwich when Gunn wasn't ready and barely reacted (far worse than any Mes blunder may I add). It's not aimed at Gruev, I'm talking about the squad. We need a SPECIALIST set piece taker in our starting line up, and Gruev isn't it.

Specialist set piece taker is a secondary role to what the player offers positionally. Gruev looks promising if still inconsistent. His free kick was inches away from top drawer with the whip he had on that strike. Huge improvement on the previous offerings from last seasons auditionees - which were generally into the wall or sailing over the bar.

Might be worth seeing how he has done over a good sample size - 10 -15 games for me should be enough.

[Ellandback1]

Elland is there a source where you can get the figures for ball in play for each half ?

Cheers.

Sorry pal, I couldn't find that data.

[Cjay]

Well said. I think too many have simply come to identify Gruev as solely a DM because that is the rle that he predominantly played last season, and played it very well. I recall Bielsa making Forshaw the no8 and hom having a few shots prior to getting injured. Just because a player has played one way doesn't mean they can't play a different way, KP being the example of a player doing it the other way around and going from box to box to DM. Often a player starts playing in a certain position early on, school age or sometimes even before, and then stick to it until a manager/coach identifies something in them and gets them to play in a different position.

Gruev doesn't need to be popping up in the opposition box all game. Maybe he is better arriving late and being on the edge of the box. A certain poster mentioned about how we'd play if we had prime Lampard or Gerrard but likely those players didn't have that many touches in the opposition box, their speciality being about arriving late and scoring from outside the box.

If Gruev plays a decent length forward pass then likely it goes out wide and we fanny about a bit and then put a cross or shot in. Even with us fannying about it doesn't mean Gruev will have time to get into the box. We saw with Portsmouth's two open play goals that having someone around 25 to 30 yards out in a central position can lead to danger.

So for me I would expect to see Gruev's heatmap showing him covering predominantly a lot of ground from our box to the halfway line. I would then expect a fair bit of him in a central position between the halfway line and to within 30 yards or so of the opposition goal. I would expect to see quite similar with Rothwell although maybe a couple more runs per game into the opposition penalty area as he likes to run with it more than Gruev. I wouldn't expect either to have loads of touches in the opposition box unless they were in there for corners and there was a bit of pinball going on.

The midfield stuff has been done to death.

But for a comparison people can watch Sheffield Wednesday and the position Ingelsson and Bannan take up and compare that to Gruev, Rothwell and Ampadu.

Both sides controlling possession.

But the midfield position is night and day.

DF will never have a Klich type which Is what Ingelsson was doing yesterday.

That's the point I was making with the Gerrard stuff.

It doesn't matter who plays there unless the instructions change.

People get upset about the Southgate stuff but our cm setup is the same as his.

It just is and that isn't an anti Farke thing it's just a statement of fact.

If you watch Wendies playing the 4-2-3-1 yesterday and just watch Ingelsson all game and remember he is effectively playing the same role as Rothwell or Gruev the difference is obvious.

[Sean_Nile]

Everybody hates Southgate and he got sacked

Daniel Farke plays like Southgate.

Therefore we should hate Farke and sack him.

I see your logic. Reductio ad absurdum.

[Rook]

I felt we were unlucky.

Created a bag full of chances, hit the bar three times.

But, that Aaronson miss............ Good Lord.

[Cjay]

Everybody hates Southgate and he got sacked

Daniel Farke plays like Southgate.

Therefore we should hate Farke and sack him.

I see your logic. Reductio ad absurdum.

right-dr-evil.gif (141.73 KiB) Viewed 538 times

[Ellandback1]

Elland is there a source where you can get the figures for ball in play for each half ?

Cheers.

What I have found....

half1.jpeg (50.16 KiB) Viewed 536 times

full-time.jpeg (52.72 KiB) Viewed 536 times

[Tyzy]

It's not so much doom and gloom but it's business as usual for us nothing ever seems to change, dominate games ,have most of the possession,create lots of chances and then end up drawing or losing games.I feel we have started we we left off last season, disappointing!

[Tyzy]

What I have found....

half1.jpeg


full-time.jpeg

Exactly how on earth did we not win that game

[ruttermania]

A quick comparison across the stats for the Championship shows that Leeds created more chances than any other team which indicates that the criticism of the midfield and 'Farkes style' is completely misplaced . I am not an England fan but I didn't see Southgates team create 22 chances in the entire competition never mind one game . If you score 3 goals at home you have to win and therefore the blame for this loss lies entirely with the Defence and was a result of poor decision making by individuals rather than anything else . Yes the squad is a bit light in a couple of areas and it would be nice if it could be sorted sooner rather than later if only to save me from this tedious checking on Newsnow. Nevertheless I'm glad that the 49ers are a bit more clued in than Ridsdale and are prepared to play hardball with some of these clubs who think that they will panic and pay over the odds . Bamford's goals were a key component in the good run last season and he will have a similar run at some stage this season and I'm not going to waste my breath making this point again because I know some people won't see that reality. Thankfully DF won't be listening to either side of this debate and will only be concerned about what's right for the club and he will have the same view on Gruev who will be good for 7/8 goals this season on the evidence of what he has done since he has been edged forward .

[Jammy 07]

Sorry pal, I couldn't find that data.

Second half of games at ER always seem more stop start with players feigning injury, slow substitutions etc, plus also the away teams tactics of giving away intentional free kicks to slow the play down. Then there's goalkeepers holding onto the ball for an eternity as well as delayed restarts and also keeping the ball close to the touchlines which results in more throw ins.

I'd hazard a guess that the ball is in play less during the second half of our games compared to the first.

[weasel]

The midfield stuff has been done to death.

But for a comparison people can watch Sheffield Wednesday and the position Ingelsson and Bannan take up and compare that to Gruev, Rothwell and Ampadu.

Both sides controlling possession.

But the midfield position is night and day.

DF will never have a Klich type which Is what Ingelsson was doing yesterday.

That's the point I was making with the Gerrard stuff.

It doesn't matter who plays there unless the instructions change.

People get upset about the Southgate stuff but our cm setup is the same as his.

It just is and that isn't an anti Farke thing it's just a statement of fact.

If you watch Wendies playing the 4-2-3-1 yesterday and just watch Ingelsson all game and remember he is effectively playing the same role as Rothwell or Gruev the difference is obvious.

I don't know enough about Sheff Wed to really be able to comment but it may well be that if their full backs don't get forward as much as ours then their central midfielders have less defensvie work to do. Or their style may be to press higher and en masse so their midfielders 'starting' psoition is higher.

[Sean_Nile]

right-dr-evil.gif

Glad you agree with me.

[Cjay]

I don't know enough about Sheff Wed to really be able to comment but it may well be that if their full backs don't get forward as much as ours then their central midfielders have less defensvie work to do. Or their style may be to press higher and en masse so their midfielders 'starting' psoition is higher.

They pressed high.

Full back position is basically the same as ours.

They just like a midfield runner and Farke doesn't, he prefers the control.

He's a cautious coach, think even his fans agree with that? His midfield setup is just another reflection of it.

Up to personal preference whether you like it or not

[Sean_Nile]

They just like a midfield runner and Farke doesn't, he prefers the control.

Good to see you agreeing with Farke, for you have made it clear in so many posts you don't like players who run alot. reductio ad absurdum

I would never have taken you for a two man defensive midfield.

[Ellandback1]

Exactly how on earth did we not win that game

Looking back, I think it will be referred to as 'doing a Leeds'.

I've heard fans say 'On another day, we would have won 5 or 6-0'. In reality, it never pans out that way for us!

[Ellandback1]

Second half of games at ER always seem more stop start with players feigning injury, slow substitutions etc, plus also the away teams tactics of giving away intentional free kicks to slow the play down. Then there's goalkeepers holding onto the ball for an eternity as well as delayed restarts and also keeping the ball close to the touchlines which results in more throw ins.

I'd hazard a guess that the ball is in play less during the second half of our games compared to the first.

It would make sense. We had much more of the ball, and were moving them about. If an opposition wanted to make things difficult for us, breaking up the play would be a good place to start.