The great centreback debate

[weasel]

We don't know if Rodon is better than Charlie though.

Maybe he would have done better?

At the moment Rodon has struggled above Championship level whereas CC did very well in Ligue 1.

Personally I've always been a fan and think CC would have done very well, as good if not better than Rodon and co.

Okay I might be in the minority here but I think Joe Rodon is much better then Charlie Cresswell, he was when we signed him on loan, he was when we signed him permanently and he still is now.

So if we had the option to sign Charlie Cresswell but he would only come if he was ahead of Joe Rodon in the pecking order who would you rather started the first match of the new season?

[Jaydog]

Okay I might be in the minority here but I think Joe Rodon is much better then Charlie Cresswell, he was when we signed him on loan, he was when we signed him permanently and he still is now.

So if we had the option to sign Charlie Cresswell but he would only come if he was ahead of Joe Rodon in the pecking order who would you rather started the first match of the new season?

As Michael Jackson said “you’re not alone”.
No chance Cresswell is ahead of Joe.
Theres a thing about players leaving and people reminiscing about what they might’ve done. Its a thing but I dont know what to call it.

P.s. dont let Michael Jackson in if he knocks.
He’s dead and a bloody pervert.

[marie67]

As Michael Jackson said “you’re not alone”.
No chance Cresswell is ahead of Joe.
Theres a thing about players leaving and people reminiscing about what they might’ve done. Its a thing but I dont know what to call it.

P.s. dont let Michael Jackson in if he knocks.
He’s dead and a bloody pervert.

Pie in the sky?

[Cjay]

As Michael Jackson said “you’re not alone”.
No chance Cresswell is ahead of Joe.
Theres a thing about players leaving and people reminiscing about what they might’ve done. Its a thing but I dont know what to call it.

P.s. dont let Michael Jackson in if he knocks.
He’s dead and a bloody pervert.

It's not about reminiscing though.

Charlie has just had an outstanding season in Ligue 1 which is a higher level than the Championship.

Joe Rodon barely got a game when he had loan in Ligue 1.

Both facts.

So it's impossible to know how Charlie would have done had he been given a chance in Championship.

People will of course vote for Joe now.

[Jaydog]

Pie in the sky?

Could be.
I think its an interesting point though. And no I dont make many but you see it here all the time.
A player leaves who has promised a lot and not delivered or maybe didn’t get the chance in some peoples eyes and before you know it they are talked up as some terrible lost opportunity.
However the manager and his staff cant always be wrong. Can they?
Dont you normally have a crack at the racing btw

[Jaydog]

It's not about reminiscing though.

Charlie has just had an outstanding season in Ligue 1 which is a higher level than the Championship.

Joe Rodon barely got a game when he had loan in Ligue 1.

Both facts.

So it's impossible to know how Charlie would have done had he been given a chance in Championship.

People will of course vote for Joe now.

Wasn’t Joe probably our most outstanding player of the season. Has to be close to it.
You state its fact as if that proves Cresswell is better.
I would call it purely circumstantial evidence and proof of nothing.

[Cjay]

Wasn’t Joe probably our most outstanding player of the season. Has to be close to it.
You state its fact as if that proves Cresswell is better.
I would call it purely circumstantial evidence and proof of nothing.

He was.

He did very well

It doesn't prove Charlie is better but does prove he clearly had a lot of talent.

Doing very well in a top European League is something Joe hasn't managed yet.

[The Subhuman]

Ahh the can't win either/or game ... If neither were at the club, I'd pay more for Charlie and start him, Rodon would be the fall back or back up

Rate them both though but Charlie could be Champions league quality.

[Jaydog]

He was.

He did very well

It doesn't prove Charlie is better but does prove he clearly had a lot of talent.

Doing very well in a top European League is something Joe hasn't managed yet.

This is a strange argument to me.
Sort of denigrating your own players to suit a narrative that I’m not sure how to describe.
If this that or the other happened then this that or the other will happen. Hardly a fact at all is it really.
I’ve not watched enough of Cresswell to know but to oust Joe to make way for him would be an interesting move if possible. I wonder if Farke agrees.

[The Subhuman]

If Joe were at Leeds as a 21 yr old he'd have been written off by this forum before he got to 24 .. A late maturer, failed in France, couldn't break into the Spuds team. Charlie is class in France at a much younger age

Personally this Richard stuff is B/S or Alfie would have been fucked off along with Charlie

[Cjay]

This is a strange argument to me.
Sort of denigrating your own players to suit a narrative that I’m not sure how to describe.
If this that or the other happened then this that or the other will happen. Hardly a fact at all is it really.
I’ve not watched enough of Cresswell to know but to oust Joe to make way for him would be an interesting move if possible. I wonder if Farke agrees.

It's a strange argument for an unnecessary poll made purely to make some sort of weird point.

Like most points Weasel makes these days I assume it's indirectly linked to his love for the leather shorted man (not you).

[weasel]

It's not about reminiscing though.

Charlie has just had an outstanding season in Ligue 1 which is a higher level than the Championship.

Joe Rodon barely got a game when he had loan in Ligue 1.

Both facts.

So it's impossible to know how Charlie would have done had he been given a chance in Championship.

People will of course vote for Joe now.

You state as facts but without any depth.

Has Charlie had an outstanding season? That is opinion and then it depends on who's opinion. It is just the same as the opinion that Rodon has had an outstanding season.

Ligue 1's top sides may be better than championship level but are all the teams in it better than championship level.

So Rodon hardly got a sniff at his French club on loan. No context though. For all we know the club Rodon was at may have had 2 centrebacks that were already in place and Rodon was unable to get a look in or opportunity to stake his claim for a place. Cresswell as a permanent signing would suggest that his team had a need for a centreback and there is also the 'fact' that as their player, rather than a loan, they may have been more inclined to play him. It was noticeable that Cresswell, during his loan spell at Millwall, wasn't a starter until one of their first choice centrebacks got injured.

I would also suggest that Rodon playing at full international level is playing against a higher calibre of opposition than Cresswell will at the U21 level.

Lastly you state that " It's impossible to know how Charlie would have done had he been given a chance in Championship." However we do know how well Rodon did so you are in effect comparing something that we can judge with something that we cannot judge so it relies on judgement against hypothetical hunches.

[The Subhuman]

I'm not voting as it's a poll up there with PJM's finest and I don't vote in those, but it will be interesting to see how many fall into the trap

[weasel]

This is a strange argument to me.
Sort of denigrating your own players to suit a narrative that I’m not sure how to describe.
If this that or the other happened then this that or the other will happen. Hardly a fact at all is it really.
I’ve not watched enough of Cresswell to know but to oust Joe to make way for him would be an interesting move if possible. I wonder if Farke agrees.

Yes it is Cjay and his 'buddy' SH turning on one of our excellent players just so they can have a pop at Farke.

[weasel]

It's a strange argument for an unnecessary poll made purely to make some sort of weird point.

Like most points Weasel makes these days I assume it's indirectly linked to his love for the leather shorted man (not you).

It is because the only way that Cresswell would have stayed would have been if Farke had decided to play him instead of Rodon. That is the black and white of the situation. Not an agenda against a manager, not basing it on supposed attitude but the simple fact is that 2 players cannot both play the same position at the same time.

[Jaydog]

It's a strange argument for an unnecessary poll made purely to make some sort of weird point.

Like most points Weasel makes these days I assume it's indirectly linked to his love for the leather shorted man (not you).

But if I can redirect to my original point - why is it that this happens on a regular basis. Player leaves. “Oh thats a mistake look what he’s doing at “insert club/league” but ultimately the staff at selling club didn’t use said player or didn’t rate him. Are they always wrong. I guarantee you Joseph will be the next Messi we let slip through our hands.
Wasn’t Cresswell around when Bielsa was in charge?

[Cjay]

It is because the only way that Cresswell would have stayed would have been if Farke had decided to play him instead of Rodon. That is the black and white of the situation. Not an agenda against a manager, not basing it on supposed attitude but the simple fact is that 2 players cannot both play the same position at the same time.

He could have played in place of Struijk or Ampadu for example.

Or played when Rodon was struggling which he was for months with injuries.

Imo sidelining Cresswell to the point we did was a mistake which is the point really.

I think it was a mistake.

Nothing to do with Rodon who did a fine job, but I think CC was class, easily good enough to have started games for us and will go on to have a very decent career.

[The Subhuman]

Yes it is Cjay and his 'buddy' SH turning on one of our excellent players just so they can have a pop at Farke.

f**king love Rodon me. But unlike you I can hypothosize and appreciate talent

[weasel]

I'm not voting as it's a poll up there with PJM's finest and I don't vote in those, but it will be interesting to see how many fall into the trap

Good for you. Don't waste time voting when you can waste time instead telling us that you won't be voting.

No TRAP as you put it. Your post however rhymes with TRAP. I would have liked us to have kept Cresswell but there was no chance of that happening unless he was playing. The only way to play him was to drop or not sign Rodon. So it is simple really - would the voters have preferred us not to have signed Rodon as that would have seemingly been the only way for us to have kept Cresswell at the club.

[andrewjohnsmith]

There's really no debate here

The only discussion I'm having is that I wish we could have found a way to keep Cresswell at the club to see his full potential. That may have required a couple of seasons on loan.

Cresswell, for me, is a very talented player. He has the physique. That much is obvious. He was captain of the U23's so he has leadership skills and maturity too. And, what many don't realize having not seen him get prolonged game time, is that he is skillful. I've seen him ping some terrific long range passes and he can also run with the ball like Rio used to. He has all the qualities to be a top class international center back.

I do agree that he has not been ready for an automatic starting 11 spot since he's been with Leeds. But he could have made a very good squad player and eventually matured into the full product.

I see faults on both sides. Farke, for better or worse, has trusted very few of his younger players and has defaulted to concentrating on a small group of players - hence the lack of game time for established players like Ramazani and Schmidt. He could have certainly given Charlie more game time.

Charlie was overly petulant and a little impatient. And I probably blame his father who is a Leeds fan and his agent. He could have certainly guided his kid better and created a better narrative around it all.

It's kind of irrelevant now anyway. Just like Archie, Charlie will probably have a top career somewhere else. He wasn't ready for regular first team football when he as with us. But I sure wish we could have used him more and crafted out a career path for him with the club he loves.