The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Wednesday 29th March) - Orta: At some point I want to return to Spain

[Cjay]

Actually think Weasel & Cjay are talking about two different things. I agree with Cjay that you can’t beat the ceiling of someone’s natural ability. Impossible to turn Forshaw in to Zidane. Not sure that’s what Weasel is saying though. Lost in translation

Maybe so.

I'm just saying that every player has a natural level talent wise.

Some things they can do that they have a natural ability for.

You can coach to nurture that ability or attribute.

But you can't teach it.

Manchester United wanted to turn David Bellion into Thierry Henry.

A fast French striker he had that natural pace.

But no amount of coaching was going to give him the natural talent Henry was born with and had coached and nurtured by Wenger.

Make sense?

I'm sure Bamford works very hard on his finishing and has his whole career.

But he still isn't a natural goalscorer.

Because some things rely on a god given gift and if it isn't there then it isn't there.

That's all I'm saying.

[1964white]

You can't coach a player to be able to anticipate danger and snuff it out before it happens otherwise every player could do it.

A rare attribute Wober has in his game, can't recall a Leeds player with that natural ability in a very long time.

[Jaydog]

Maybe so.

I'm just saying that every player has a natural level talent wise.

Some things they can do that they have a natural ability for.

You can coach to nurture that ability or attribute.

But you can't teach it.

Manchester United wanted to turn David Bellion into Thierry Henry.

A fast French striker he had that natural pace.

But no amount of coaching was going to give him the natural talent Henry was born with and had coached and nurtured by Wenger.

Make sense?

Yeah I agree. It’s a very nuanced discussion though I think Cjay. But ultimately you can’t coach someone beyond their natural ability in theory. But I also think it’s possible that a player’s absolute ability level can be somewhat hidden by nerves etc. The really great players don’t just have natural ability but also the ability to try things in a game with zero worry about failure.
Forget the pro golfer exactly but in essence he said the tour is full of world class players with endless natural ability but they don’t have the nerve. Something like that anyway

[The Subhuman]

Actually think Weasel & Cjay are talking about two different things. I agree with Cjay that you can’t beat the ceiling of someone’s natural ability. Impossible to turn Forshaw in to Zidane. Not sure that’s what Weasel is saying though. Lost in translation

Not what CJay is saying, he used the term technique ...

[Jaydog]

Not what CJay is saying, he used the term technique ...

You can definitely improve someone’s technique to a certain extent

[The Subhuman]

You can definitely improve someone’s technique to a certain extent

To a large extent .... and for all sports

The three key areas are

Technique - Coachable
Athleticism - Not coachable
Mentality

[Cjay]

You can definitely improve someone’s technique to a certain extent

Only to the limit of there natural god given ability. . . . . . . .

No amount of training or coaching is going to make Dan James pass, move, dribble, control, shoot like prime Bale.

[Cjay]

Yeah I agree. It’s a very nuanced discussion though I think Cjay. But ultimately you can’t coach someone beyond their natural ability in theory. But I also think it’s possible that a player’s absolute ability level can be somewhat hidden by nerves etc. The really great players don’t just have natural ability but also the ability to try things in a game with zero worry about failure.
Forget the pro golfer exactly but in essence he said the tour is full of world class players with endless natural ability but they don’t have the nerve. Something like that anyway

There is that of course and a coach can help unlock that bit, give a player the confidence to try things they were to scared to try.

Play that pass
Move from A to C to cover whereas they were to scared about B to move before.
Make that run etc

The elite players have that drive, mentality, arrogance even.

And a good coach can help with that

But ultimately a players natural ability limit will always define how much they can or can't do.

[Kennyb41]

Bert improved the players performance as a team effort.

Correct, you can't polish turds, you can improve their mindset, where to run etc etc etc

If you want stats, here you go...

Lets say on a skill level 1-100 Pablo was 85 and Cooper was 15...Dallas being 20

Bert took LC's game up to 85
Bert took KP's game up to 90
He took Dallas up to 90
He took The Bunny up to 80
His improved fitness took Pablo up to 91

Roberts never budged, coz he's either a thick fcker or it just doesn't work with him coz he just does his own thing anyway, he just doesn't get 'IT'

Might not make sense to you still.

[Jaydog]

There is that of course and a coach can help unlock that bit, give a player the confidence to try things they were to scared to try.

Play that pass
Move from A to C to cover whereas they were to scared about B to move before.
Make that run etc

The elite players have that drive, mentality, arrogance even.

And a good coach can help with that

But ultimately a players natural ability limit will always define how much they can or can't do.

I think everyone agrees then. Don’t they

[weasel]

Actually Weasel makes some good points above.
I mean if you can’t improve what you have by practicing then why does anyone practice. In any sport. Good coaching as well as practice obviously.
So therefore you can take a player and improve them and teach them various things that in turn make them in to a better player technically and probably more consistent too.
So on that note if I was to live with Weasel in the Weasel house for say 6 months could I become a great football analyst, coach & analogy giver? With his coaching I could become technically better. Definitely.

The expression, 'Polishing a turd,' springs to mind.

[weasel]

You can improve natural talent you can't teach something that isn't there.

Yes you're not going to turn Cooper into Maldini or Bobby Moore but you can certainly make a player better than they are. I would see countless players, at Sunday League level, with more natural ability then some premier league players but there they were playing on the same pitch as a clogger like me. If someone is talented and wants to work at their talent and improve it then they can, Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney are classic examples. Rooney was probably the better of the 2 at age 17. Ronaldo made himself better and better. Rooney had a great career but never really hit the heights in the same way Ronaldo did. We have seen with James that he can smash the ball into the net from 30 yeards. He can put a good cross in, he can run with the ball, go past 3 or 4 players with sheer pace and score. So the talent is there even if say 99 times out of 100 it may not happen. So you can work on that because the ability is there, if he can do it once in a hundred then keep working on it and he can do it twice in a hundred, you've already then made him twice as good. Keep working on it and maybe he can do it 10 times in a hundred, keep working on it and there is no limit. We aren't talking about a player who has never burst past players and scored a worldie. So the talent is there.

Should have known better than implying Bielsa was wrong

My mistake.

He would have turned James into prime Gareth Bale.

Bale was very ordinary for a long time then suddenly it all clicked. No reason why it couldn't happen to Dan James. I saw James more of a Samu Saiz player for Bielsa but with the explosive pace to really hurt the opposition, get the ball just inside our half and put the after bruners on and kick and rush it past 2 defenders and then he's through on goal. Samu had the ability to bring the ball out from defence and use his skill to get past a player or two, however he didn't have the pace. So replace Samu's nimble feet with James's raw pace.

You can't teach end product if the player doesn't have it in them. Bamford could have trained with Bielsa till he was 50 he would never have been a natural finisher.

Of course you can. Now some players may get excited/nervous when a chance comes their way but you can improve the way they receive the ball, their body shape, so that they can execute the shot better. Just look at how different it is for players who come back from injury and look rusty, their touch is poor etc That is because they have had they aren't back into full natural mode, you practise, you practise, you practise and you get better. Just because you can't make someone a 'natural finisher' doesn't mean you can't make them a better finisher.

A player either has a natural talent or he doesn't.

Case in point Tyler Roberts, he didnt have the natural ability so he didn't improve.

Bielsa didn't have a magic wand.

Yes some players have far more natural ability but it doesn't mean you can't improve a player who has less ability. Like I said I player with and against lots of players with fantastic natural ability yet none of them played even at a professional level. Carlton Palmer had 18 caps for England. I would say Tyler had a lot of natural ability but possibly less of a footballing brain. I don't mean that in a nasty as I am sure Faaip will point out Tyler Roberts played some great passes at times. What Tyler needs is a run of consecutive games to really work himself out as a footballer, increase his awareness of everything to go with his natural ability, work out how to get the most out of what he has etc. Tyler's biggest problem for me was his injuries. I don't know whether he could improve, some players won't, I mentioned Rooney before as someone who got along great with what he had but never really took his game to another level. Natural ability is great but you need to know what to do with it. There used to be a term 'Car Park Player' for players who had all the natural ability in the world and could do all the fancy tricks int he car park but then were lost when they got onto the pitch. It's why people like the world keppy uppy champion isn't a professional footballer.

If repetition was all it took then why is every dedicated footballer not world class? I net Liam Cooper is very dedicated, why isn't he prime Maldini?

Every footballer is limited by natural ability and no amount of practice will change there natural level.

Yes but practise will make the most out of whatever level of natural ability they have

It is OK to admit Barry White wasn't faultless and didnt know ew everything . . . . . . . .

Ffs even the most successful managers ever got things wrong.

Yeah not every player will improve. I think it is down to the character of the player more than anything else though. If they are prepared to listen and prepared to work hard they will improve - that is why most of the players Barry inherited at Leeds got better. They took his advice on board, they worked harder than they ever had and they got better. Klich is a great example. It seemed Barry was happy to see the back of him, he'd probably been told he (Klich) had a bit of an attitude problem, but Klich took the opportunity when we were lacking a centreback for a pre-season friendly and presumably Barry saw that this was a player who was prepared to do whatever he could to get the chance. I'm sure Barry has had many examples where players haven't been prepared to listen, weren't prepared to put the hard work in and Barry got rid of them. Pontus may well have been in that category, clearly a talented player but we saw he didn't want to listen to the manager (the Villa goal) and that he didn't want to put in the hard work (wanted to come back to pre-season a couple of weeks late) whereas his temporary replacement, Ben White, was prepared to play with the U23s and do what Barry wanted him to do. Side before self springs to mind,

[weasel]

You can't coach a player to be able to see a pass and perfectly weigh a pass otherwise every player could do it.

You certainly can. Even at Sunday League level I'd work my players at getting the weight of the pass right. So much easier to knock a 30 yard pass out to someone in space than to actually hit a 5/10 yard pass to someone right. So easy to ping it too hard so it bounces off them, hit it too soft so that it gets intercepted, hit it at them rather than a yard in front of them where they could run onto the ball without having to stop. It frustrates me when I see careless passes because it can definitely be taught. Arsene Wenger at Arsenal is a great example because he'd get them playing the pass on the floor rather than in the air. That way the player hasn't got to control it so they have more time or they can play a first time pass. You coach the player on body shape when receiving the ball. This then means they are able to see more of the pitch and know where players are. They then see the next pass earlier. So many players receive a pass but don't know where their team mates are. This happened so often under Marsch. Players need to be alert allt he time, watching where their team mates are at all times so that if the ball comes to them they know where they are looking to pass to. Johnny 'Natural Talent' Smith controls a ball dropping out of the sky beautifully, has to look up to see where his team mates are and get tackled. Liam Cooper receives a pass played along the ground, at decent pace so he can let it run accross him onto his left foot and then plays it first time out to a team mates. You haven't improved Liam's 'natural ability' you have improved him as a player and improved the team.

You can't coach a player to be able to anticipate danger and snuff it out before it happens otherwise every player could do it.

Of course you can. Players, especially defenders, get better at reading the game the more they play so clearly it can be learned. So as a coach you can take short cuts, simple stuff like seeing what foot your opponent is strongest with and then trying to not let him get the ball onto that foot in shooting range. It's not natural ability it is coached and learnt. I've made the example before about Tyler Adams chasing the winger and helping out the full back. Yeah great but that isn't where the danger will likely end up. So we take Barry and KP and Barry tells KP where the danger will be. KP keeps central, sees the expected run of the opposition midfielder into the penalty area and is in the right position. So KP has been coached into anticipating where the danger will be and is in the right place to be able to stop it rather than chasing after a winger who will simply play the ball into the box for the opposition midfielder to score unchallenged.

You can improve on a natural talent, but every player isn't going to be able to do it.

I agree you won't turn every player into a superstar but if you can improve every player by say 10 per cent then that is the equivalent of having an extra player on the pitch.

Good coaches see a talent a player has that maybe they don't know themselves and develop it.

They haven't made that player better technical footballers by making them more gifted they have just seen and improved on an already given gift.

Bielsa in KP saw something and nurtured it through coaching, credit to him.

But you can't nurture something that isn't there.

You can coach and coach and coach but if a player hasn't in them then they haven't in them.

That's why I say with Dan James we have seen he has the talent. We've seen him, in a red shirt, go pastr a couple of players and samsh in a great goal. So like I have said before you know the ability is there so you coah and coach and coach it until it happens more often.
We're not talking taking Lim Cooper and expecting him to dribble past 6 players, Maradonaesqu, and score, because he has never done that (well as far as I am aware) but we have seen Dan James do it a few times, not a one-off fluke but a handful of times. So it is there, it hasn't been a hit and hope type shot, it isn't something that you'd say if he hit that shot 100 more times he wouldn't score. It is something that he has done a few times so you know it is something he is capable of so that is what you are trying to improve, not the ability, not the technique but the capability of doing it more often.

[weasel]

Actually think Weasel & Cjay are talking about two different things. I agree with Cjay that you can’t beat the ceiling of someone’s natural ability. Impossible to turn Forshaw in to Zidane. Not sure that’s what Weasel is saying though. Lost in translation

Like I saw though it isn't about turning Forshaw into Zidane but making Forshaw a better player than he was. So you try to get the player to reach his ceiling, maybe even push it a little higher. You then coach him about the game, increase their awareness, increase their concentration when making a 'simple' pass, increase their spatial awareness by getting them to look up more before they get the ball. All little things. Barry didn't turn Dallas into ZIdane he just made him into the best version of Dallas that he could be, a better version than Dallas probably thought was even possible. He didn't turn Cooper into Maldini, he just made him better, still a mistake in him now and again but better than he was. He didn't make Ayling into something he wasn't he just improved him as much as was possible. Each player still had weaknesses, no player would walk into City's first team. Barry didn't turnthem from championship players to Champions League players he just made them far better than they were.

[weasel]

Maybe so.

I'm just saying that every player has a natural level talent wise.

Some things they can do that they have a natural ability for.

You can coach to nurture that ability or attribute.

But you can't teach it.

Manchester United wanted to turn David Bellion into Thierry Henry.

A fast French striker he had that natural pace.

But no amount of coaching was going to give him the natural talent Henry was born with and had coached and nurtured by Wenger.

Make sense?

I'm sure Bamford works very hard on his finishing and has his whole career.

But he still isn't a natural goalscorer.

Because some things rely on a god given gift and if it isn't there then it isn't there.

That's all I'm saying.

Interesting that you bring up Henry. He was the fast pacy winger with no end product. Wenger coached him though and he became an incredibly calm finisher. How much was down to Wenger and how much was down to Henry and natural improvement I don't know but he became a much better finisher. But the god given gift to finish wasn't apparent early on. I hate to bring Marsch up but there was one thing he said that was right and that was that we had players who were too rushed and who needed to learn to slow things down at the crucial time. Dan James falls into that category, maybe Bamford too, in that they appear rushed when the crucial moment arrives. James has the pace to get to the right position but the next developemt of his game is then to be able to slow it down mentally and pick the right shot/pass. I think any player can improve on that, to what extent would be different with every player but what you have with James is someone who can get into the position, using his speed. So if you can get the end product then there is no ceiling. Whereas if you take someone better at finishing but without the pace that gives them the ability to get into those positions then the ceiling has a limit.

[Jaydog]

The expression, 'Polishing a turd,' springs to mind.

Don’t run yourself down.
Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all.

[Overman]

Don’t run yourself down.
Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all.

Leave it out, he's got some impressive experience and silverware from playing Championship Manager.

[Ellandback1]

A rare attribute Wober has in his game, can't recall a Leeds player with that natural ability in a very long time.

Matteo, Chief and Woodgate.

[1964white]

Don’t run yourself down.
Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all.

Good song

[weasel]

Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all.

Didn't you get banned from Waitrose for loving yourself in the bruised avocado section?