When did it all go wrong?

[Lufcheidi]

Would be totally disastrous, Heidi.

That's the frightening thing to be honest. I think all the financial benefits of being in the premier league changed the outlook of our finances and we've thrown caution to the wind rather than made our money work for us so to speak.

[Lufcheidi]

This season has been a disgrace Heidi, but there are still some who think we don't have issues at the club. Baffling.

I'm a born worrier but I've had reservations for a while regarding our finances. Maybe I woke up to it more once they sacked Bielsa but instead of building over time which was the best thing we could have done, we have thrown it all away.

[Lufcheidi]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/foo ... ore-target

Plenty of it about Heidi.

And it basically all could describe us now

Buying from clubs he knows.

Thin in multiple areas

Desperate to sign cheap gems to flog

Players lacking the fight for a relegation battle

Etc

Definitely has followed a pattern and I think it has been to the detriment of the club. We could have strengthened our team very easily with those who wanted to play for Leeds United and take pride in wearing the shirt. It's gone so far backwards on the pitch that the togetherness has disappeared and it also feels like it is back to them and us fans. How sad is that when we had such a good thing going?

[Bongo1874]

It's down to one very simple issue.

Money.

It is the single biggest factor in where a club ends up. You can get the odd outlier, Leeds under Bielsa, Brighton...but you can't keep beating the odds.

Nonsense, your basing that on Marcelo second season with half a team out injured, Brighton have improved every season, as have Brentford, you really won't see any negative said about the board.

[Bongo1874]

It all went wrong on two fronts.

Orta - Should've been sacked yonks back.

Bert - Should never have been sacked.

That's the top and bottom of it all.

Keep shouting it home Kenny boy.

Because you are absolutely spot on.

[Bongo1874]

That is the great unknown, but take comfort from the fact that what Risdale is now impossible due to the amount of involvement by the PL in the finances of clubs now.

We will take a hit that is for sure, but we wont have the creditors stripping us this time

IF we go down

You shouldn't be anywhere near relegation but that's the point, I'm not saying Leeds have some sort of entitlement but that squad ain't bad.

And can compete with any team on its day,especially at home.

[malcolmw]

So where did it all go wrong? Earning our place back in the PL through hardwork, after many years in the doldrums, only to screw it up through incompetence - typical Leeds.

For me, these are the main reasons:
- Obsession with re-sale value and trying to make a profit on players, rather than signing players who will keep us up and thus, bring more money to the club.
- Too many foreign players who don't care about Leeds and no local talent in the side. Where are the Kalvins, Milners, Cooks, Delphs?
- An egocentric owner who gave an interview to The Athletic at the start of the season, all about himself and bragging we wouldn't be in trouble. Just shows he learned absolutely nothing from last season.
- Style of play. We've tried to play too open, when we don't have the quality to do that. It all goes back to recruitment and wanting players who press and nothing else. For the first few seasons, we should've focused on trying to stay up before thinking of the style. Running before we could walk.
- No competition for Meslier for 3 seasons in the PL. You're only as good as your goalkeeper as the saying goes. Look at Forest for example, they have Keylor Navas as a back up. We only sign GKs to warm the bench not to compete.
- Not signing a striker or defender in the summer. The club was far too loyal to Bamford, which has cost us countless points this season. Defence has been poor for three seasons, but we only signed Woeber in January. Had he been in in July, I think we'd have 6 more points on the board.

Trying to avoid "recruitment", as an obvious answer, but these are my main thoughts. Feel free to add any I've missed.

There's an old saying in management - "what got you 'here', might not get you 'there''. Bielsa created a strong side from mainly average players and he got us promoted.
But very little was then done to strengthen or deepen the squad in that first year back. Owners, board and the manager must take the blame for that. That team was great for the Championship, but was not going to be good enough to compete in the Premier League. Sorry to say, but Bielsa does have a bit of that in his background.
By end of that season, injuries mounted and a gradual slide gathered momentum. But, somehow, we finished 9th, so ... no need for action, right? All is well, right?
Then 'the boss' decides to fire Bielsa (after waiting too long) and replaces him with a coach who is, at best, League One level (in my opinion to appeal to 49ers Enterprises, i.e.that was a business decision not a footballing one).

So, here we are. This is now sort of like tracking shipwrecks...You draw a line above the Titanic and start again!

[Mountain]

Nonsense, your basing that on Marcelo second season with half a team out injured, Brighton have improved every season, as have Brentford, you really won't see any negative said about the board.

Newcastle fan says it's not about money. As his annual relegation favourites become CL contenders because they now take money to sportswash the persecution of gay people, killing 250,000 in Yemen, sawing up journalists etc.

You talk to your lawyer about the defamation case you mentioned last night? Did he fall over laughing at your stupidity?

[Bongo1874]

Newcastle fan says it's not about money. As his annual relegation favourites become CL contenders because they now take money to sportswash the persecution of gay people, killing 250,000 in Yemen, sawing up journalists etc.

You talk to your lawyer about the defamation case you mentioned last night? Did he fall over laughing at your stupidity?

Maybe its down to recruitment ,and having a good coach/manager that can get more out the existing player's at club and build on it.

Just to show how much you know about football, Chelsea how are they getting on ,Man united for all the money they have thrown at it?

Best one yet Leeds how much did they spend under Marsch??????

Clueless just like yer wee Pals Radz and Orta.

https://youtu.be/EVciA56Z5y0

[Kennyb41]

Heidi, for 4 + years i've been battling on my own against this fraud, one day i'm sure he'll be revealed as shyster that took backhanders.

I wish people like Faaip would back up their love of the man.

I have no problem with Radz, he's a businessman that came along and took a chance on us with 400m.

But Bert is the one and only reason he struck lucky.

[Kennyb41]

I'm a born worrier but I've had reservations for a while regarding our finances. Maybe I woke up to it more once they sacked Bielsa but instead of building over time which was the best thing we could have done, we have thrown it all away.

He cut the squad to work with whatever he could and save us money, i think if given the chance he'd have cut 90% of what he inherited, but would've had nothing left to work with.

He singlehandedly worked wonders from the tea lady up.

They are absolute fools that wanted him gone.

He had a dream for us.

[Freddy]

Maybe its down to recruitment ,and having a good coach/manager that can get more out the existing player's at club and build on it.

Just to show how much you know about football, Chelsea how are they getting on ,Man united for all the money they have thrown at it?

Best one yet Leeds how much did they spend under Marsch??????

Clueless just like yer wee Pals Radz and Orta.

https://youtu.be/EVciA56Z5y0

That's a good point.

Personally, I think the root of Leeds' troubles is in the corporate structure of the club. Consider you have venture capitalists who have taken over presumably with an intention to resell at a large profit in maybe 10 years once the club is stabilised in the Premier League. Nothing wrong with that in principle, and the present owners have done some good things. This is not a binary problem.

However, unless the club is guided by people who actually care about it in the sense of having a deeper emotional feeling for the club, you can end up with a lack of direction. Victor Orta does care about the club. You can tell he does, and to be honest, I feel a bit sorry for him. I'm sure the directors do care too. They're people with feelings and ambitions and wouldn't give their time to this unless they wanted Leeds United to be successful. But what I'm talking about is deeper feeling and allegiance. Again, though, this is not binary because deeper feeling can be destructive when it clouds commercial decisions. A prime example of this is Peter Ridsdale, who had genuine feeling for the club balanced with commercial acumen, but a sense of ambition that wasn't financially sustainable.

What that tells me is nothing particularly new: that you need business people involved who have the emotional allegiance of a supporter but at the same time are of sound judgement. At the moment, I think we lack elements of that. This is not a criticism of the owners and directors, just an observation. What we have are people in ultimate control who aren't even really 'football' people. They do care about the supporters and the club, but their priority is cashing out - which, let me again stress, is a perfectly lawful and legitimate commercial objective. It's their money and careers on the line, so they are entitled to take that approach. It doesn't make them bad people and it doesn't mean they lack care for the club or its supporters, but I'm not sure it's right for Leeds United.

It affects the culture and mindsets in the club - like a cascading effect that goes right down to the players and it influences decisions about players. I'll offer some further elucidation:

1. Transfers.
As somebody else on here has rightly pointed out, Victor seems to mostly ignore homegrown players in favour of players from abroad who don't have experience in the English domestic game. I think this causes problems of transparency: in effect, the club is signing mystery players who are untested in the competitive environment they are being asked to play in. The transfer decisions are a bit of a mish-mash, seem to lack coherence, seem to be motivated often by a desire to cash out on a player rather than have the player make an immediate contribution.

2. Strategy/Direction
The club seems to lack a clearly articulated mission and direction. That may seem like vague management-speak, but it does matter. What are we doing? Where are we going? Are we trying to survive, or achieve mid-table solidity, or go for top 8 and Europe, or what? How do we get there? Say what you like about them, but Manchester United don't have this problem. They know where they're going, or at least, where they want to go, and everybody else knows it - including their supporters. Leeds United can't just be run for the profit of a group of investors - which again, let me stress, is not a criticism, as it is perfectly legitimate for investors to want to achieve a profit and they are very welcome to it. I just don't think that 'cashing out'/exiting can be the be-all and end-all. It's a football club, a community asset, with supporters who have ambitions and aspirations for the pride and prestige of the city of Leeds and West Yorkshire.

3. Overly-systemised football
I think rigid tactical systems are naive, even naif-like. I threw my lot behind Jesse Marsch and backed him to the bitter end, and I make no apologies for it, because I am a supporter and I will support whoever is the manager, but I never liked the style of football Marsch wanted us to play and I also didn't like Marsch's tactical dogmatism. (I have other criticisms of Marsch, but won't leave them here). I kept hoping he would mature tactically and grow in the role, I was urging him on, but sadly he didn't adapt. I hope the club can shake off this fetish for 'systems' in how football is played and go back to proper tactics, but I think part of that reformation should be that the club reforms its own hierarchy and downgrades the Director of Football role and gives the manager the final say on the club's ventures into the transfer market.

4. Technical structure
This is going to be a criticism of Bielsa. Obviously a great manager, but I think he may have harmed the technical set-up at the club, and in particular the ability to address and remediate player fitness and injuries. Like Marsch, he was very wedded to a particular playing model and wanted a small squad and so on, and I think this has had lingering effects on the club's technical performance. In plain English: our players are knacked. They're worn out. Bielsa has to accept some responsibility (or blame or both) for this state of affairs. It seems obvious that Bamford's injury problems were at least partly caused by Bielsa's monomania. Our continued reliance on Championship-level players (I intend no disrespect to those players) as the core of our squad is extraordinary and, in my view, is another of Bielsa's negative legacies.

Solutions?
From the viewpoint of the long-term interests of the club (in the sense of 10, 20, 30 years), I think it may be better if we are relegated. The shock will damage us initially, but setbacks of that nature often herald a renaissance. If the right people come in, it could turn out to be a blessing in disguise and the club could bounce back even stronger.

Don't misinterpret that: I don't want us to be relegated, I'm just trying to look at it objectively.

If we do survive, it's a more difficult challenge, if anything. I do admire the club's owners and I harbour no ill feeling for Victor - as I say, I feel sorry for him - but they are now the wrong people. It should be seen as the end of a cycle. They brought us to the Premier League and they've overseen the transition to survival, but we now need serious people in charge who can address the issues I list above and other issues I could mention and bring Leeds United back into the big time and cups and titles - which is what the supporters deserve, and also what Victor and the owners deserve as a tribute for their hard work, even if they would only be looking on as spectators. There are no hard feelings here, only lessons learned.

I'm sceptical about the 49'ers as I think they, rather than Victor, may have been a guiding influence in some of the transfer decisions, and other decisions, and I'm not convinced that the American corporate culture fully understands domestic football (soccer) in England and Europe. You need owners who are simpatico with the club - in plain language, people who 'get' the club and the environment in which the club operates, who care deeply, but at the same time, have the sound judgement needed to ensure the boat stays afloat.

Thanks.

[Irish Ian]

That's a good point.

Personally, I think the root of Leeds' troubles is in the corporate structure of the club. Consider you have venture capitalists who have taken over presumably with an intention to resell at a large profit in maybe 10 years once the club is stabilised in the Premier League. Nothing wrong with that in principle, and the present owners have done some good things. This is not a binary problem.

However, unless the club is guided by people who actually care about it in the sense of having a deeper emotional feeling for the club, you can end up with a lack of direction. Victor Orta does care about the club. You can tell he does, and to be honest, I feel a bit sorry for him. I'm sure the directors do care too. They're people with feelings and ambitions and wouldn't give their time to this unless they wanted Leeds United to be successful. But what I'm talking about is deeper feeling and allegiance. Again, though, this is not binary because deeper feeling can be destructive when it clouds commercial decisions. A prime example of this is Peter Ridsdale, who had genuine feeling for the club balanced with commercial acumen, but a sense of ambition that wasn't financially sustainable.

What that tells me is nothing particularly new: that you need business people involved who have the emotional allegiance of a supporter but at the same time are of sound judgement. At the moment, I think we lack elements of that. This is not a criticism of the owners and directors, just an observation. What we have are people in ultimate control who aren't even really 'football' people. They do care about the supporters and the club, but their priority is cashing out - which, let me again stress, is a perfectly lawful and legitimate commercial objective. It's their money and careers on the line, so they are entitled to take that approach. It doesn't make them bad people and it doesn't mean they lack care for the club or its supporters, but I'm not sure it's right for Leeds United.

It affects the culture and mindsets in the club - like a cascading effect that goes right down to the players and it influences decisions about players. I'll offer some further elucidation:

1. Transfers.
As somebody else on here has rightly pointed out, Victor seems to mostly ignore homegrown players in favour of players from abroad who don't have experience in the English domestic game. I think this causes problems of transparency: in effect, the club is signing mystery players who are untested in the competitive environment they are being asked to play in. The transfer decisions are a bit of a mish-mash, seem to lack coherence, seem to be motivated often by a desire to cash out on a player rather than have the player make an immediate contribution.

2. Strategy/Direction
The club seems to lack a clearly articulated mission and direction. That may seem like vague management-speak, but it does matter. What are we doing? Where are we going? Are we trying to survive, or achieve mid-table solidity, or go for top 8 and Europe, or what? How do we get there? Say what you like about them, but Manchester United don't have this problem. They know where they're going, or at least, where they want to go, and everybody else knows it - including their supporters. Leeds United can't just be run for the profit of a group of investors - which again, let me stress, is not a criticism, as it is perfectly legitimate for investors to want to achieve a profit and they are very welcome to it. I just don't think that 'cashing out'/exiting can be the be-all and end-all. It's a football club, a community asset, with supporters who have ambitions and aspirations for the pride and prestige of the city of Leeds and West Yorkshire.

3. Overly-systemised football
I think rigid tactical systems are naive, even naif-like. I threw my lot behind Jesse Marsch and backed him to the bitter end, and I make no apologies for it, because I am a supporter and I will support whoever is the manager, but I never liked the style of football Marsch wanted us to play and I also didn't like Marsch's tactical dogmatism. (I have other criticisms of Marsch, but won't leave them here). I kept hoping he would mature tactically and grow in the role, I was urging him on, but sadly he didn't adapt. I hope the club can shake off this fetish for 'systems' in how football is played and go back to proper tactics, but I think part of that reformation should be that the club reforms its own hierarchy and downgrades the Director of Football role and gives the manager the final say on the club's ventures into the transfer market.

4. Technical structure
This is going to be a criticism of Bielsa. Obviously a great manager, but I think he may have harmed the technical set-up at the club, and in particular the ability to address and remediate player fitness and injuries. Like Marsch, he was very wedded to a particular playing model and wanted a small squad and so on, and I think this has had lingering effects on the club's technical performance. In plain English: our players are knacked. They're worn out. Bielsa has to accept some responsibility (or blame or both) for this state of affairs. It seems obvious that Bamford's injury problems were at least partly caused by Bielsa's monomania. Our continued reliance on Championship-level players (I intend no disrespect to those players) as the core of our squad is extraordinary and, in my view, is another of Bielsa's negative legacies.

Solutions?
From the viewpoint of the long-term interests of the club (in the sense of 10, 20, 30 years), I think it may be better if we are relegated. The shock will damage us initially, but setbacks of that nature often herald a renaissance. If the right people come in, it could turn out to be a blessing in disguise and the club could bounce back even stronger.

Don't misinterpret that: I don't want us to be relegated, I'm just trying to look at it objectively.

If we do survive, it's a more difficult challenge, if anything. I do admire the club's owners and I harbour no ill feeling for Victor - as I say, I feel sorry for him - but they are now the wrong people. It should be seen as the end of a cycle. They brought us to the Premier League and they've overseen the transition to survival, but we now need serious people in charge who can address the issues I list above and other issues I could mention and bring Leeds United back into the big time and cups and titles - which is what the supporters deserve, and also what Victor and the owners deserve as a tribute for their hard work, even if they would only be looking on as spectators. There are no hard feelings here, only lessons learned.

I'm sceptical about the 49'ers as I think they, rather than Victor, may have been a guiding influence in some of the transfer decisions, and other decisions, and I'm not convinced that the American corporate culture fully understands domestic football (soccer) in England and Europe. You need owners who are simpatico with the club - in plain language, people who 'get' the club and the environment in which the club operates, who care deeply, but at the same time, have the sound judgement needed to ensure the boat stays afloat.

Thanks.

Let you out did they?

[Jimstorrie]

Bielsa and Marsch both sacked after the January transfer window had closed.
So the new incumbent has to work with what he has.
Whereas changes say in December means he could have had some input.
Nothing to do with penny pinching?

[weasel]

You shouldn't be anywhere near relegation but that's the point, I'm not saying Leeds have some sort of entitlement but that squad ain't bad.

And can compete with any team on its day,especially at home.

Trouble is as a squad it is weak. We have a lot of decent wingers, a poor central midfield, and weak defence. It is just a poorly thought out squad where it comes accross as us just buying players because they were on a list of players to keep an eye on and they became available rather than us buying players for positions that we needed. It is sort of the opposite of the Blackburn team that won the premier league. They had a strong spine consisting of Shearer, Batty, Hendrey and Flowers and then fairly average players elsewhere. We seem to have decent wingers (interesting giving we had manager that didn't like wingers) but a weak to non-existent spine.

[lufc1304]

Irrespective of what league we are in next season, I think we need, as a bare minimum, 2 FBs, a DM, CM and CF. And that's on the basis that none of the existing "spine" (Meslier, Koch, Wober, Adams, Jimmy, Willy, Jack and Frank) leave. Maybe Drameh and Gyabi are the answers at RB and DM, but we look light and disjointed everywhere else. Maybe not a full rebuild, a pre-season is probably not long enough to integrate huge changes in the starting 11, but changes need to be made, and some tough decisions. We cannot continue to limp along like this.

[DDB220]

Theoretically we do have the makings of a decent team if we go down, but with what we currently have minus what we are likely to lose (which may amount to 4 to 8 players) the team \ squad will undoubtedly encompass quite a number of young and relatively inexperienced players. Whether that is good enough to bounce straight back up - is IMO possible if we have the right coach but very risky.

So the reset that a number of posters allude to will in the main rely on youth

Gelhardt, Joseph, Struijk, Cresswell, Drameh, Hjelde, Perkins, Bate - et al - may look promising on paper but you need seasoned old heads in the team also. Therefore the likes of Cooper, Ayling, Dallas and possibly even Bamford and Forshaw would have a significant part to play. If we do somehow manage to bounce back up would we be in a better position than we were when we went up under Bielsa ?

For me this will largely depend on whether the young players are indeed good enough to navigate the Championship and then step up to be PL quality. Therefore recruitment this summer will play a huge part in our fortunes going forwards. The next window will be crucial whatever happens. Personally, I would not have Gracia as coach / manager if we go down.

[Bongo1874]

Trouble is as a squad it is weak. We have a lot of decent wingers, a poor central midfield, and weak defence. It is just a poorly thought out squad where it comes accross as us just buying players because they were on a list of players to keep an eye on and they became available rather than us buying players for positions that we needed. It is sort of the opposite of the Blackburn team that won the premier league. They had a strong spine consisting of Shearer, Batty, Hendrey and Flowers and then fairly average players elsewhere. We seem to have decent wingers (interesting giving we had manager that didn't like wingers) but a weak to non-existent spine.

Going to sound controversial here,but a big part of Leeds was Kalvin, he made Leeds tick.

Now just my opinion but what you sold him for was nowhere near his value, when you consider what the likes of grealish went for etc,

Kalvin ran the show for England at Euros ,and I say that as a Scot.

It's a shame to see how it's went for him at city.

Midfield was always an issue,but Pablo, Klich,Dallas all chipped in, and the fact Marcelo seemed to get the best out off 17 goal Bamford in the prem ,helped massively.

Rodrigo is a very hard worker, but I feel his petty complaining like Gordon did for us against Brentford , sends out the wrong message too others in team.

I would get rid don't like that sort of attitude.


Newcastle need a stopper infront of defence like Kalvin was for Leeds,to allow the likes of Bruno and others freedom to get forward .

[weasel]

Going to sound controversial here,but a big part of Leeds was Kalvin, he made Leeds tick.

Now just my opinion but what you sold him for was nowhere near his value, when you consider what the likes of grealish went for etc,

Kalvin ran the show for England at Euros ,and I say that as a Scot.

It's a shame to see how it's went for him at city.

Midfield was always an issue,but Pablo, Klich,Dallas all chipped in, and the fact Marcelo seemed to get the best out off 17 goal Bamford in the prem ,helped massively.

Rodrigo is a very hard worker, but I feel his petty complaining like Gordon did for us against Brentford , sends out the wrong message too others in team.

I would get rid don't like that sort of attitude.


Newcastle need a stopper infront of defence like Kalvin was for Leeds,to allow the likes of Bruno and others freedom to get forward .

Like you say we have gone from a midfield that whilst not prolific would weigh in with a few goals. Pablo, Dallas and Klich all capable of getting a few. COntrast that to now and Adams, Roca and Roca have a combined total of 2. Aaronsen in particular has been a complete let down in terms of goal contribution from the position he plays, I reckon that if I would have played as much as him I'd have contributed more to us scoring goals and I'm 47 and have played predominantly as a centreback.

[1964white]

Like you say we have gone from a midfield that whilst not prolific would weigh in with a few goals. Pablo, Dallas and Klich all capable of getting a few. COntrast that to now and Adams, Roca and Roca have a combined total of 2. Aaronsen in particular has been a complete let down in terms of goal contribution from the position he plays, I reckon that if I would have played as much as him I'd have contributed more to us scoring goals and I'm 47 and have played predominantly as a centreback.

Apparently, Aaronson has scored one goal in 38 shots.

He's probably gone to ground 38 times this season, too!