When did it all go wrong?

[malcolmw]

This is why i said 'we don't have the money but we did have the man'

Surely everyone notices that the top teams playing the 'football' they do have key members that are vital to make them tick, they try to cover every single position twice just in case of injuries, but if they are playing another top team they want their best 11 available or they get unbalanced.

Take Arsenal recently - It was one injury too far in Saliba and it's totally fcked their chances of the Prem - They got away with Jesus just about coz they brought in the BHA guy and had Nketia, but not just that they had Sake and Martinelli contributing up front whilst Jesus was out, then they had Zinchenko injured but he wasn't vital and they can scrape by at 95% with the alternative RB, they lost a first choice midfielder for a while but had an adequate replacement.......But when Saliba got injured it was a bridge too far and it's fcked them coz gormless Holding is like 30% the player Saliba is.

Citeh have their own BEST 11.

Take Modric out of Real Madrid and they don't tick over as well, if Modric gets injured before they play Citeh again Pep will be rubbing his hands.

Bert did his best polishing turds and turning water into to wine, but ffs....some just don't get 'it' and never fcking will as long as they've that hole in their arse.

I agree with you Kenny. We did have the man. But his brilliant eccentricities meant he was always vulnerable to ignorant owners. (not the first time in his career BTW). Geniuses are often misunderstood and the PL takes no prisoners when things start not going well.
Question is where to from here?
We seem to be a team that does well when we play a bit ugly!!
If you could choose (aside from Marcelo), who would you hire as next boss?

[Kennyb41]

I agree with you Kenny. We did have the man. But his brilliant eccentricities meant he was always vulnerable to ignorant owners. (not the first time in his career BTW). Geniuses are often misunderstood and the PL takes no prisoners when things start not going well.
Question is where to from here?
We seem to be a team that does well when we play a bit ugly!!
If you could choose (aside from Marcelo), who would you hire as next boss?

We couldn't be in better hands than big Sam for what he has to work with, and what a complete mish mash of shite he has.

Get stable, find a cracking scout, then bring Bert back, that's my dream.

I really would advise you to listen to that podcast Sara's posted on the Clown thread, it highlights just how shite Orta was and a hinderance to every manager.

But as for now and the complete rebuild from the keeper up through, i don't think there's a better no nonsense guy than Sam, and that's either whether we stay up or get relegated.

The transition from what Bert built and the following input of players from Clown mophead has been criminal, we are a mess of different players, players that suit one style or another, take Wober for example, he's looking ok as a defender, but he would be a mess in a Bert team and vice versa with Cooper.

Listen to that podcast you then will fully understand why i've been screaming all along our problem is the Clown.

My dream would be - Get stable with Sam, bring Bert back, give Bert the keys to the city again, let him clear the decks again of all Orta's shite, let him keep what he feels is good enough to work with in the youth, let him get involved with the youth like he was.

And ffs find a good scout, or let Bert find his own, i 100% genuinely feel Bert has unfinished business with what he was aiming to prove to his doubters and how to do it from scratch, Jeez give Bert 5 years in the Prem and i'm certain we'd be up there challenging for Champs league spots, i have no doubts at all about that.

[Kennyb41]

I agree with you Kenny. We did have the man. But his brilliant eccentricities meant he was always vulnerable to ignorant owners. (not the first time in his career BTW). Geniuses are often misunderstood and the PL takes no prisoners when things start not going well.
Question is where to from here?
We seem to be a team that does well when we play a bit ugly!!
If you could choose (aside from Marcelo), who would you hire as next boss?

I agree he does have eccentricities, but he's also wise enough to slap himself across the face, those two years in the Prem would've taught him so much, even he would have to admit he cut it too fine and the Prem is a far tougher place than first thought.

And i'm sure he'd adjust accordingly, he's not dumb., i just hope he still loves us and the 49er's use their brains.

[malcolmw]

We couldn't be in better hands than big Sam for what he has to work with, and what a complete mish mash of shite he has.

Get stable, find a cracking scout, then bring Bert back, that's my dream.

I really would advise you to listen to that podcast Sara's posted on the Clown thread, it highlights just how shite Orta was and a hinderance to every manager.

But as for now and the complete rebuild from the keeper up through, i don't think there's a better no nonsense guy than Sam, and that's either whether we stay up or get relegated.

The transition from what Bert built and the following input of players from Clown mophead has been criminal, we are a mess of different players, players that suit one style or another, take Wober for example, he's looking ok as a defender, but he would be a mess in a Bert team and vice versa with Cooper.

Listen to that podcast you then will fully understand why i've been screaming all along our problem is the Clown.

My dream would be - Get stable with Sam, bring Bert back, give Bert the keys to the city again, let him clear the decks again of all Orta's shite, let him keep what he feels is good enough to work with in the youth, let him get involved with the youth like he was.

And ffs find a good scout, or let Bert find his own, i 100% genuinely feel Bert has unfinished business with what he was aiming to prove to his doubters and how to do it from scratch, Jeez give Bert 5 years in the Prem and i'm certain we'd be up there challenging for Champs league spots, i have no doubts at all about that.

I agree that Big Sam is a bit of a breath of fresh air right now. His approach is honest and his doesnt give a f*@# what others think of him (which BTW was all Marsh cared about). Pity we had to wade through the crap of the past season.

I was thinking about all that nonsense our fearless (aka feckless) leaders told us after finally sacking Marshmallow. "Watch for smoke" ... we're close to a big announcement, blah, blah".
Here we all were forecasting it could be one of the really talented ones who had the skills and smarts to undo the Marsh crap and try to start somewhere near the talent Bielsa built. Of course, by that stage, no-one worth their salt would touch us with a 10-foot pole - knowing how decisions are made in our boardroom. Poor old Gracia gets bundled into his tracksuit (and I do think tried his best).

Then suddenly we hear that Kinnear went ...."hang on a minute .... I know this bloke from West Ham days. I think he's got a bit of experience, and he's not doing much other than play golf. What if ......." FFS!!!

I know hindsight is 20/20 vision, but you mean to tell me they went through all the Gracia conversations knowing full well Big sam - a bit of a "save the drop" specialist (West Brom aside) - had been sitting by his phone the whole time?

Given our situation at that point, a choice between Javi Gracia and Sam was a bit of a no-brainer ..... No???? ..... Surely???

Then the geniuses decided - "hold on - lets sack Javi and bring in Sam the week before we face the best club side in the world - away(even better) - sound good lads? Isn't this fun?"

Cynical, sarcastic, or just the plain f***ing truth?

Come on Sam - 6 points in 2 weeks, you can do it.

[SG90]

I agree that Big Sam is a bit of a breath of fresh air right now. His approach is honest and his doesnt give a f*@# what others think of him (which BTW was all Marsh cared about). Pity we had to wade through the crap of the past season.

I was thinking about all that nonsense our fearless (aka feckless) leaders told us after finally sacking Marshmallow. "Watch for smoke" ... we're close to a big announcement, blah, blah".
Here we all were forecasting it could be one of the really talented ones who had the skills and smarts to undo the Marsh crap and try to start somewhere near the talent Bielsa built. Of course, by that stage, no-one worth their salt would touch us with a 10-foot pole - knowing how decisions are made in our boardroom. Poor old Gracia gets bundled into his tracksuit (and I do think tried his best).

Then suddenly we hear that Kinnear went ...."hang on a minute .... I know this bloke from West Ham days. I think he's got a bit of experience, and he's not doing much other than play golf. What if ......." FFS!!!

I know hindsight is 20/20 vision, but you mean to tell me they went through all the Gracia conversations knowing full well Big sam - a bit of a "save the drop" specialist (West Brom aside) - had been sitting by his phone the whole time?

Given our situation at that point, a choice between Javi Gracia and Sam was a bit of a no-brainer ..... No???? ..... Surely???

Then the geniuses decided - "hold on - lets sack Javi and bring in Sam the week before we face the best club side in the world - away(even better) - sound good lads? Isn't this fun?"

Cynical, sarcastic, or just the plain f***ing truth?

Come on Sam - 6 points in 2 weeks, you can do it.

Kinnear/49ers wanted to appoint Big Sam in February, but Orta was completely against it, and brought in his mate instead who was completely out of his depth.

[Kennyb41]

Like i said Malcolm listen to Saras podcast, it's everything i've been bangin on abart for 4 years now, the problem is, was and always has been the monkey with a pin, he has nearly single handedly ruined our club.

Big Sam is the man for me at where we currently stand at a crossroads, big Sam has never really been given a fair crack of the whip, because WHEREVER he goes the defence is usually what he ALWAYS has to fix first and foremost, and it's the same here, the blind fckers here don't get how fcked it is with Ortas shite, Bert fixed it in his own majestic way when he had his best players available, Sams task is gonna have to be in the best way he knows how.

Ask me if i'd have wanted Sam after Bert and the answer would've been no, but we're a mess and certain people should've been careful what they wished for, it's that simple.

They just didn't get 'it' fast enough, they certainly ALL recognise it now, just a shame they were sooooooooo slow on the uptake at the time when 'it' mattered the most.

[The Subhuman]

What exactly constitutes a 'BIG' club?

Trophies won?
How rich they are?
The amount of Supporters and well known around the world?

For me its trophies and supporters. We've done rather well in both so for me, yes, we are a big club. Look at Spurs. When was the last time they won the title for example, or a trophy. Yet they are classed as a big club, only because of their monetary status.

Think our average finishing position since the Don is somewhere in the second tier, We've spent more time in "division 2" than the top division in the last 43 years, by a distance

When my dad came to this country he came supporting the big teams of his childhood, Blackpool and Bolton. Would we call them big clubs now?

[The Subhuman]

Provincial clubs, with a support base limited to their immediate area, apart from a few short years in the limelight.

I don't think that's true of Leeds - a one club city with a much wider catchment area for support than somewhere like Bolton, with its proximity to Manchester and Liverpool. We also have a distinct identity, rooted in a period of being one of the best club sides in world football.

Of course, in the TV era, the localised 'legacy' fans are less significant than the 'global brand', but despite so many years in the wilderness, Leeds are still near the forefront of football consciousness. There are more songs and chants about hating Leeds than any other club, for example, and it isn't even close.

It would only take a period of steady investment and sensible management to have us consistently in the top ten imo, and challenging perennial bridesmaids like Spurs for recognition. We have won the league three times since they last won it, after all.

I agree about the one club city thing and that our Global brand came mostly from the days of the Don, propped up just in time by the arrival of the Sergeant and finally of course the Guru.

Our "legend" keeps us alive, we're The Raiders of the English Football Leagues, the hated, the unjustly done by, the magnet for most fans of the underdog, the picked upon..... Those type of teams are found in a number of sports but Leeds and the Raiders stand atop the pile. Success against the odds should be the motto.

I do recall a time reading, not that long ago. that the Rhino's or just plain Leeds Rugby League Football Club was the biggest team in Leeds and that LUFC were the afterthought.. probably even behind YCCC many years ago. No clue if that was ever true or proveable but it says something if it's even close

[whiteswan]

Provincial clubs, with a support base limited to their immediate area, apart from a few short years in the limelight.

I don't think that's true of Leeds - a one club city with a much wider catchment area for support than somewhere like Bolton, with its proximity to Manchester and Liverpool. We also have a distinct identity, rooted in a period of being one of the best club sides in world football.

Of course, in the TV era, the localised 'legacy' fans are less significant than the 'global brand', but despite so many years in the wilderness, Leeds are still near the forefront of football consciousness. There are more songs and chants about hating Leeds than any other club, for example, and it isn't even close.

It would only take a period of steady investment and sensible management to have us consistently in the top ten imo, and challenging perennial bridesmaids like Spurs for recognition. We have won the league three times since they last won it, after all.

By heck that's a good post

[malcolmw]

Kinnear/49ers wanted to appoint Big Sam in February, but Orta was completely against it, and brought in his mate instead who was completely out of his depth.

So that just reinforces my point about how management decision making is broken. The buck stops at the top. Kinnear is the CEO. Orta works (worked, thank God) for him. Problem is, if you're insecure in your leadership, you'll buckle quickly.

[malcolmw]

Provincial clubs, with a support base limited to their immediate area, apart from a few short years in the limelight.

I don't think that's true of Leeds - a one club city with a much wider catchment area for support than somewhere like Bolton, with its proximity to Manchester and Liverpool. We also have a distinct identity, rooted in a period of being one of the best club sides in world football.

Of course, in the TV era, the localised 'legacy' fans are less significant than the 'global brand', but despite so many years in the wilderness, Leeds are still near the forefront of football consciousness. There are more songs and chants about hating Leeds than any other club, for example, and it isn't even close.

It would only take a period of steady investment and sensible management to have us consistently in the top ten imo, and challenging perennial bridesmaids like Spurs for recognition. We have won the league three times since they last won it, after all.

Picking up on the theme of 'sensible management', one of the things we seem incapable of doing under the current management (and most previous regimes) is learning from failure. There's a great saying - " failure is not a crime, failing to learn from failure is the crime"
Learning 1: that should have been considered: I can somewhat sympathise with the board feeling they had to fire Marcelo - 2nd season syndrome, a losing streak not showing signs of stopping, danger of the drop, etc.
BUT - as a post-mortem on that time - did they adequately support and provide resources to a manager who had single-handedly turned the club around in 3 years and will go down in our history as a saviour? In other words when we started to falter, how much of the resources were the boards idea of what was needed and how much was the manager's?

Learning 2: They apparently had Marsh lined up to replace Marcelo. In what universe could you think an inexperienced coach, who lasted 6 months as a Bundesliga coach, and had only ever played football in the USA, could fill marcelo's giant sneakers.

Learning 3: So you take a chance and hire this dude. Now you wait a year - long, long after he'd lost the player's confidence, before firing him. But this time, you don't have a qualified successor lined up.

And here we are!! Its not the players, its not the size of the club, its not the facilities. Its leadership that is overwhelmed and out of its depth.

[malcolmw]

I think it's a complexity of things, but decision making, driven by short-termism, greed and arrogance really is where the buck stops.

Marsch was a joke, but any prospective employer should've done due diligence on his coaching set up, for one thing. Marcelo had a team of about twenty, highly experienced coaches, whom he'd been working with for years; Marsch rocked up with a self-help manual, a box of pizza, and a quip about the players being overtrained.

In what world were they in any way on a comparable level, regardless of the totally contrasting styles! The person sanctioning this decision should've been fired, along with Marsch, on the day we stayed up. Instead we had the idiot on the pitch, claiming credit and doubling down the train of destruction he had set in motion.

This isn't even the benefit of hindsight, I said at the time that if we shaped the squad around Marsch it would set us back years. And here we are!

Yes, Sara, it is the complexity that is overwhelming them (the greed thing is valid too and colouring decision making).
But often, in my experience, leaders create their own complexity because they believe they have all the answers and aren't open to learning and input. I was told once as a young leader, by someone I consider a mentor, that leaders should never be afraid of saying 3 things:
I'm sorry
I screwed up
I need help.

As we have both said here - the fact that Marsh was even considered as a replacement for Marcelo shows the arrogance and ignorance involved.

[weasel]

I think it's a complexity of things, but decision making, driven by short-termism, greed and arrogance really is where the buck stops.

Marsch was a joke, but any prospective employer should've done due diligence on his coaching set up, for one thing. Marcelo had a team of about twenty, highly experienced coaches, whom he'd been working with for years; Marsch rocked up with a self-help manual, a box of pizza, and a quip about the players being overtrained.

In what world were they in any way on a comparable level, regardless of the totally contrasting styles! The person sanctioning this decision should've been fired, along with Marsch, on the day we stayed up. Instead we had the idiot on the pitch, claiming credit and doubling down the train of destruction he had set in motion.

This isn't even the benefit of hindsight, I said at the time that if we shaped the squad around Marsch it would set us back years. And here we are!

It was fairly evident from day 1 that Marsch was a complete buffoon. Although some fans made him their champion so as to be able to continually lambast the man who had almost singlehandedly given us back our pride.

[BobHirst]

It was fairly evident from day 1 that Marsch was a complete buffoon. Although some fans made him their champion so as to be able to continually lambast the man who had almost singlehandedly given us back our pride.

There you go, re-writing history again.
Criticizing some of Bielsa's decisions is a long way from lambasting the man.
Bielsa confessed for everyone to hear, that he didn't know how to fix the situation we were in and we would have been relegated if the change hadn't been made.
I can't recall anyone thinking that Marsch was "their champion".
Most of us knew nothing about him but were prepared to give him a chance but that's a long long way from what you are stating.

I know I've fallen into the trap and I am contributing to it but isn't it time you guys got over it?

[Jaydog]

[malcolmw]

There you go, re-writing history again.
Criticizing some of Bielsa's decisions is a long way from lambasting the man.
Bielsa confessed for everyone to hear, that he didn't know how to fix the situation we were in and we would have been relegated if the change hadn't been made.
I can't recall anyone thinking that Marsch was "their champion".
Most of us knew nothing about him but were prepared to give him a chance but that's a long long way from what you are stating.

I know I've fallen into the trap and I am contributing to it but isn't it time you guys got over it?

The point - to me at least - is not about getting over it or re-hashing what is now history.
Its about learning from errors and poor decisions. Like I said on an earlier post today, how could anyone think a guy with that sort of resume could be a replacement and building block immediately after Bielsa? It just points to very poor analysis and decisions made with biases involved. marsh was not set up to succeed and nor was Gracia a year later.

In the corporate world the accountability for a poor hire is a probationary period - usually between 2 and 6 months. If during that time its not working (for either party), ties are severed with no money changing hands and no lawsuits.
That doesn't exist in our sport - so no accountability and the same errors get repeated.
We saw evidence of that poor planning just a year later in Feb this year.

When the governance (the board) is made up largely of venture capitalists, the team, its fans and the city are the ones suffering from this - you can bet they don't!

[weasel]

There you go, re-writing history again.
Criticizing some of Bielsa's decisions is a long way from lambasting the man.
Bielsa confessed for everyone to hear, that he didn't know how to fix the situation we were in and we would have been relegated if the change hadn't been made.
I can't recall anyone thinking that Marsch was "their champion".
Most of us knew nothing about him but were prepared to give him a chance but that's a long long way from what you are stating.

I know I've fallen into the trap and I am contributing to it but isn't it time you guys got over it?

A little over sensitive Bob?

I am talking about a small minority who like to rewrite history in their continued knocking off Bielsa, stating many things as facts even when I have repeatedly shown that their 'facts' were falsehoods or just their opinions. SImilar to how you twist Bielsa's honesty in your comment and then suggest that we would have been relegated as if it were a fact rather than merely a possibility. The people who made Marsch their champion still write about him as though he saved us and even seem to think we would be doing better this season if we hadn't sacked him.

I knew nothing about him when he was linked with us and then quickly appointed. I was extremely worried when I researched about him but was obviously hoping he would prove to be a great choice. Similarly I had never heard of the Brighton manager but he has proven, so far, to be a great appointment. So of course I was prepared to give him a chance but it was apparent very early on that he was out of his depth. I still hoped to be proved wrong and when we were 2-0 up against Southampton I thought maybe I had been wrong and maybe he was capable of doing well now he had his own players in and a chance to implement his style. Obviously the collapse against Southampton, in the baking heat when he refused to bring on subs despite bigging himself up prior to the match about how he had managed in the heat, snaped me out of my hope that I had been wrong. The Chelsea match again showed that maybe I was wrong but it was just a false dawn that led to a shitstorm of a day.

[Kennyb41]

It was fairly evident from day 1 that Marsch was a complete buffoon. Although some fans made him their champion so as to be able to continually lambast the man who had almost singlehandedly given us back our pride.

Oh i remember them well, tarnishing the name of the great man with insults.

Lest we forget.

[Kennyb41]

There should also be a structure of accountability, so one individual can't get away with running amok.

Exactly, this is what happened, a bully took full control of us, a bully with a huge ego, and fck all else.

Now if that individual happened to be BErt, well, that's another story.

[Kennyb41]

Provincial clubs, with a support base limited to their immediate area, apart from a few short years in the limelight.

I don't think that's true of Leeds - a one club city with a much wider catchment area for support than somewhere like Bolton, with its proximity to Manchester and Liverpool. We also have a distinct identity, rooted in a period of being one of the best club sides in world football.

Of course, in the TV era, the localised 'legacy' fans are less significant than the 'global brand', but despite so many years in the wilderness, Leeds are still near the forefront of football consciousness. There are more songs and chants about hating Leeds than any other club, for example, and it isn't even close.

It would only take a period of steady investment and sensible management to have us consistently in the top ten imo, and challenging perennial bridesmaids like Spurs for recognition. We have won the league three times since they last won it, after all.

You see, a lot of this is why Sams taken us on i feel, he knows how big Leeds want to be again and where they should be.

When run correctly, we are a big 6 club, and probably a big 4.

Given time Bert would've got us back there.

Sam thinks he can.