Trump

[Sean_Nile]

European leaders respond to oval office row

[LUFC DAVE 7]

This sums it all up for me, and flies in the face of right-wing bigots.

It may well go down in history as the most remarkable, brutal and shocking political event ever seen on live television.

But it may prove to be more than a piece of TV history.

It may be the moment an entire nation was wiped off the world map.

Or worse, it might trigger events that are a threat way beyond the borders of Ukraine.

A threat to the rest of Europe and, yes, a threat to Britain. There is no point denying it.

But the extraordinary televised clash between President Zelensky and Donald Trump and his sidekick JD Vance was not just momentous for what it meant to the global political situation.

It was the moment the world saw the truth about three men.

On one side, Zelensky – physically small, but a giant in moral stature – the comedian who became an accidental hero, elected to lead his country only to see it invaded by the murderous totalitarian monster that is Vladimir Putin.

How Zelensky rose to the challenge as he led his plucky nation’s brave resistance to evil Putin.

Every world leader worth their salt has queued up to praise Zelensky for his remarkable courage.

Britain – including Boris Johnson, for all his faults – can take pride in the way that he, and all of us, have supported Zelensky and Ukraine, with many Britons welcoming Ukrainians in their homes.

The raw courage of little Zelensky was there for all to see as he fought for his and his country’s life in the Oval Office.

And now let us look at the other two men in the room.

The vulgar, threatening, ignorant, snarling, arrogant bully that is the leader of the free world, God help us.

The man who had the nerve to call noble Zelensky a dictator and who cosies up to the dictator called Putin who ordered the attempted murder of people on the streets of Salisbury, never mind tens of thousands of innocent women and children in Ukraine.

And look at the vile piece of work that made up the trio, the bearded JD Vance. Acting like Trump’s burly enforcer thug, barking at Zelensky to show “respect” to the Godfather President.

It was as though they had defenceless Zelensky on the floor, jeering at him, vying to kick him in the head, determined to make him grovel, break his resistance.

But Zelensky is made of sterner stuff than these two Neanderthals. Was I the only one who cheered out loud as he stuck to his guns?

Heaven knows what the implications are of yesterday’s appalling scenes. Doubtless there will be some who blame Zelensky for not fawning over Trump, and accuse him of bringing the President’s wrath on his own head.

I disagree. All he did was to tell the truth: if the whole world – and, yes, including America – does not stand with Ukraine against Russia, the consequences will be unimaginable for Ukraine and, in all likelihood, the rest of us in the West, too.

Zelensky knows what is going on: Trump wants to sell Ukraine down the river so he can pillage its minerals, without offering any troops to keep Russia at bay in return – the so-called “backstop” security guarantee – and carve up other lucrative deals with Putin, with no regard to the fate of Europe, or anyone else whatsoever.

There is another way of looking at yesterday’s Oval Office atrocity. The world owes Zelensky a favour for showing the true face of Trump and Vance: a pair of gangsters who are waging war on truth and democracy and will threaten and avenge anyone who gets in their way.

We were all going to have to confront that fact sooner or later. It has just become a lot sooner.

There is another way to handle meetings with Trump in his Oval Office lair: promise to spend billions more on defence to save him money, throw baubles and red carpet visits to flatter his vanity, don’t contradict a word he says, grin when he patronises your wife, laugh at his crass jokes, and fall at his feet when he offers peanuts in return – like a deal on the Chagos Islands, for example.

That was Keir Starmer’s approach, and Trump was charm personified.

As we now see, it was an illusion.

[Sean_Nile]

Can Europe take up the slack if Trump pulls out of military support to Ukraine?

This Sunday Zelensky meets up with European leaders in the UK it is going to be interesting how everyone may turn in the wind.

[Tyzy]

This sums it all up for me, and flies in the face of right-wing bigots.

It may well go down in history as the most remarkable, brutal and shocking political event ever seen on live television.

But it may prove to be more than a piece of TV history.

It may be the moment an entire nation was wiped off the world map.

Or worse, it might trigger events that are a threat way beyond the borders of Ukraine.

A threat to the rest of Europe and, yes, a threat to Britain. There is no point denying it.

But the extraordinary televised clash between President Zelensky and Donald Trump and his sidekick JD Vance was not just momentous for what it meant to the global political situation.

It was the moment the world saw the truth about three men.

On one side, Zelensky – physically small, but a giant in moral stature – the comedian who became an accidental hero, elected to lead his country only to see it invaded by the murderous totalitarian monster that is Vladimir Putin.

How Zelensky rose to the challenge as he led his plucky nation’s brave resistance to evil Putin.

Every world leader worth their salt has queued up to praise Zelensky for his remarkable courage.

Britain – including Boris Johnson, for all his faults – can take pride in the way that he, and all of us, have supported Zelensky and Ukraine, with many Britons welcoming Ukrainians in their homes.

The raw courage of little Zelensky was there for all to see as he fought for his and his country’s life in the Oval Office.

And now let us look at the other two men in the room.

The vulgar, threatening, ignorant, snarling, arrogant bully that is the leader of the free world, God help us.

The man who had the nerve to call noble Zelensky a dictator and who cosies up to the dictator called Putin who ordered the attempted murder of people on the streets of Salisbury, never mind tens of thousands of innocent women and children in Ukraine.

And look at the vile piece of work that made up the trio, the bearded JD Vance. Acting like Trump’s burly enforcer thug, barking at Zelensky to show “respect” to the Godfather President.

It was as though they had defenceless Zelensky on the floor, jeering at him, vying to kick him in the head, determined to make him grovel, break his resistance.

But Zelensky is made of sterner stuff than these two Neanderthals. Was I the only one who cheered out loud as he stuck to his guns?

Heaven knows what the implications are of yesterday’s appalling scenes. Doubtless there will be some who blame Zelensky for not fawning over Trump, and accuse him of bringing the President’s wrath on his own head.

I disagree. All he did was to tell the truth: if the whole world – and, yes, including America – does not stand with Ukraine against Russia, the consequences will be unimaginable for Ukraine and, in all likelihood, the rest of us in the West, too.

Zelensky knows what is going on: Trump wants to sell Ukraine down the river so he can pillage its minerals, without offering any troops to keep Russia at bay in return – the so-called “backstop” security guarantee – and carve up other lucrative deals with Putin, with no regard to the fate of Europe, or anyone else whatsoever.

There is another way of looking at yesterday’s Oval Office atrocity. The world owes Zelensky a favour for showing the true face of Trump and Vance: a pair of gangsters who are waging war on truth and democracy and will threaten and avenge anyone who gets in their way.

We were all going to have to confront that fact sooner or later. It has just become a lot sooner.

There is another way to handle meetings with Trump in his Oval Office lair: promise to spend billions more on defence to save him money, throw baubles and red carpet visits to flatter his vanity, don’t contradict a word he says, grin when he patronises your wife, laugh at his crass jokes, and fall at his feet when he offers peanuts in return – like a deal on the Chagos Islands, for example.

That was Keir Starmer’s approach, and Trump was charm personified.

As we now see, it was an illusion.

You nailed it, great post

[GreennWhite]

Out of all the world leaders who have stuck up for Zelensky so far, how many if any of them have come out and criticised Trump for what he did and said ?

[BradWhite]

I thought the UK troops in Ukraine 'commitment' was to only act as peace keepers in view of an American peace deal. None of our troops sent in to fight.....

Yes you're correct... but we can we trust any of these barmy sods?

It's become even more unstable now for Ukraine, Zelensky said this morning that a peace deal can still be achieved, it won't happen unless he backs down and offers a compromise but he would have to go back 'cap in hand' for it.

Putin is unpredictable and isn't opposed to underhand tactics to get his way, peace keepers get targeted all the time they nullify perfidy as disinformation - Bush and Blair did it several times, they were war crimes but they got away with them.

I think Putin may up the pressure on Zelensky and force his hand but I still can't see Putin giving up the Crimea that easliy, peace deal or not.

[Sean_Nile]

Out of all the world leaders who have stuck up for Zelensky so far, how many if any of them have come out and criticised Trump for what he did and said ?

Europe for all its posturing is a toothless old dog. Macron and Starmer do fist bumps and knee slaps, but they are leaders of failing governments, just making ludicrous jingoistic noises... signing a treaty to support Ukraine for a 100 years. Is that what the British people are signing on for, or is it Starmer sabre rattling.

There will be no criticism of the Trump/Vance stitch up... and at most, tepid support of Zelensky, when the European leaders meet in the UK

Some democrats discuss the oval office debacle.

[BradWhite]

That TV conference was bad on so many levels, almost The Jerry Springer Show meets the Apprentice.

IMO...
Zelensky does not show any diplomatic negotiating skills and he lacks strength as a leader and that's is his downfall because he permitted himself to be silenced and bullied in front of the whole world, even Vance bullied him and he sat there frustrated and child like.

I said earlier his body language was all wrong, folded arms, facial expressions showed his anxiety and inexperience on the world stage, he should have kept all of that to a minimum and refused to allow Trump to drag him into any heated debate in public - he should have politely refused and kept it on the level - he lost the room and it showed.

In a nutshell, Trump basically gave Zelensky a choice of give up your rich earth and save lives or don't, Pick one.

Yet Trump basically said yes to Starmer's insane Chagos Island deal, so something tells me he's getting something out of that deal too, besides Starmer peddling Trumps ego with vulgar royal state visits.

[Trigger]

That TV conference was bad on so many levels, almost The Jerry Springer Show meets the Apprentice.

IMO...
Zelensky does not show any diplomatic negotiating skills and he lacks strength as a leader and that's is his downfall because he permitted himself to be silenced and bullied in front of the whole world, even Vance bullied him and he sat there frustrated and child like.

I said earlier his body language was all wrong, folded arms, facial expressions showed his anxiety and inexperience on the world stage, he should have kept all of that to a minimum and refused to allow Trump to drag him into any heated debate in public - he should have politely refused and kept it on the level - he lost the room and it showed.

In a nutshell, Trump basically gave Zelensky a choice of give up your rich earth and save lives or don't, Pick one.

Yet Trump basically said yes to Starmer's insane Chagos Island deal, so something tells me he's getting something out of that deal too, besides Starmer peddling Trumps ego with vulgar royal state visits.

No he isn't a Diplomat at all, is Trump? Could it possibly be he's just an ordinary man that loves his country and it's people, people like him?

Do you ever look at this as if it was your England that had been invaded? Hitler gets a foothold in Cornwall whilst your sat in Bradford being asked to take up arms against an army that outnumbers you 16-1, out-guns/weapons you by goodness knows what...Bombs start landing all over London/Manchester/ Liverpool/ Birmingham/Leeds....We're calling up the ordinary man, we're begging the world to help us fight him off.......Oh hold on...

I suppose you'd surrender.
That posh house you live in, is it an Ivory Tower?

[BradWhite]

No he isn't a Diplomat at all, is Trump? Could it possibly be he's just an ordinary man that loves his country and it's people, people like him?

Do you ever look at this as if it was your England that had been invaded? Hitler gets a foothold in Cornwall whilst your sat in Bradford being asked to take up arms against an army that outnumbers you 16-1, out-guns/weapons you by goodness knows what...Bombs start landing all over London/Manchester/ Liverpool/ Birmingham/Leeds....We're calling up the ordinary man, we're begging the world to help us fight him off.......Oh hold on...

I suppose you'd surrender.
That posh house you live in, is it an Ivory Tower?

Your point does not alter the fact of what the world saw.

I think you missed my point for an attack on Zelensky and assumed that I either got some sort of gratification from watching him shrink in his chair - I really didn't.

Whether Trump is a diplomat or not, he likes to win because he is a businessman and he knows how to win, he sees weakness and he exploits it - FACT!!!

If that agitates you then you best buckle up as you're in for a rough ride because he has actually made it far worse for Zelensky and his nation with that display of weakness.

You then pose a rather silly question regarding Hitler invading England, well if I had been around in 1939 then of course I would have defended my country, I am from a military family, my Grandfather fought at Dunkirk, the other died on the Somme in 1916, my Uncles both fought in Burma, one was POW and was tortured by the Japanese.
My Father did national service, my 2 nieces did several tours including Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq, my nephew was 18 when he went to Kuwait then Basra in Iraq, he also did 2 tours of Afghanistan with the Para Reg, he further went on to the SAS fighting phoney illegal wars caused by Western aggression that has destabilised the world.

I once would have fought for this country but not now and I am glad my family are no longer serving either.

I support Ukraine because at least their men didn't abandon their country, wives and children, to cross several borders to get to the UK, they stayed and fought.

You are new member therefore you will not have read that my family and I had applied to take in a Ukrainian family but because of Gov incompetence, one visa was delayed and by the time it was issued the other 3 visas had expired and that family had to relocate to Germany. My mate and his wife took in one lad and has paid for him to go through University.

Still think I live in an Ivory tower?

How many did you take in?

A fact is information without emotion.
An opinion is information with experience.
Ignorance is an opinion lacking information.
And, stupidity is an opinion that ignores fact.

[Mick Jones elbow]

I find it quite ugly that the fate of hundreds of thousands of people depends on a deal being struck based on its monetary value for one party.

Trump is fooking moron along with most of his other goons.

His dismantling of federal government will end very badly..

[BradWhite]

Seems to be a lot division and anger on here.

I feel for the people of Ukraine but we can't keep pumping billions of cash in to it and people are still being slaughtered on a daily basis, there has to be a ceasefire deal and the only way that will happen is through Trump.

NATO is made up of 32 member countries, many pay very little into it, many pay nothing into it, the USA pays the most and without them NATO will collapse.

We know Trump wants to gain something from it to benefit and strengthen the USA, just like he will do from any deal he makes with Starmer over the Chagos Islands and any deal he makes as an arbitrator.

Yet Starmer claims full support for Ukraine and that means pumping more UK tax payers money from aid into it and he has pledged billions more to rebuild it and maintain peacekeeping troops on the ground if a cease fire with Putin is made, people need to understand that a ceasefire peace deal will not happen without the Trump administration.

Putin is not going to give up on the Ukraine as it is part of his Crimea rebuild, so the UK will be paying in billions and more people will be killed.

This is insanity...

BTW The USA have given over 350Bn to Ukraine and half of it is missing!!!

[Muppet the Cat]

On a lighter note….to a very serious issue/situation. I was, earlier today, listening to and watching the Times Radio podcast, put out following that Oval Office fiasco yesterday. One of the contributors was British geopolitical author and journalist, Tim Marshall.

Note the prominently displayed badge behind him ……..MOT (well maybe not Donald and JDV)

[Jaydog]

Seems to be a lot division and anger on here.

I feel for the people of Ukraine but we can't keep pumping billions of cash in to it and people are still being slaughtered on a daily basis, there has to be a ceasefire deal and the only way that will happen is through Trump.

NATO is made up of 32 member countries, many pay very little into it, many pay nothing into it, the USA pays the most and without them NATO will collapse.

We know Trump wants to gain something from it to benefit and strengthen the USA, just like he will do from any deal he makes with Starmer over the Chagos Islands and any deal he makes as an arbitrator.

Yet Starmer claims full support for Ukraine and that means pumping more UK tax payers money from aid into it and he has pledged billions more to rebuild it and maintain peacekeeping troops on the ground if a cease fire with Putin is made, people need to understand that a ceasefire peace deal will not happen without the Trump administration.

Putin is not going to give up on the Ukraine as it is part of his Crimea rebuild, so the UK will be paying in billions and more people will be killed.

This is insanity...

BTW The USA have given over 350Bn to Ukraine and half of it is missing!!!

When you say half of it is missing you in turn insinuate it’s being stolen. So presumably for Zalenskyyyyyyyyyy’s coke addiction.
But seriouslyyyyyyyyy I don’t necessarilyyyyy disagree with you. A diplomatic person he certainlyyyyy isn’t.

[Mick Jones elbow]

https://youtu.be/Zn9BTALjtLY

Interesting take, joining the dots.

[BradWhite]

When you say half of it is missing you in turn insinuate it’s being stolen. So presumably for Zalenskyyyyyyyyyy’s coke addiction.
But seriouslyyyyyyyyy I don’t necessarilyyyyy disagree with you. A diplomatic person he certainlyyyyy isn’t.

He must have signed for it or it never reached him.

It's a serious amount of money and someone on the radio suggested they look into several Ukrainian property portfolio hedge funds.

Sadly foreign aid often falls into wrong hands all the time, including corrupt overlords and not the people that needs it, the UK is hands out billions of it, they even give money to the Taliban FFS.

Also... £2.3Bn went missing from the sale of Chelsea FC when sold by Abramovich.
This money was for humanitarian purposes for victims of the war in Ukraine, and wherever they are in the world.

The irony is that David Lammy is investigating it.

Also: UK pledges £2.26bn to Ukraine as Zelensky says it will be used for weapons.

[Broad Ford]

Do you ever look at this as if it was your England that had been invaded?

Russia isn't invading the Ukraine and has no legal declaration of war with Kiev. Isn't that why Ukrainian citizens still drink in bars and cafes that haven't been flattened by Russia in 3 years. Missiles have hit the energy infrastructure but no civilian centres or Z's ivory bunkers have taken hits. Kiev is largely unaffected by the SMO.

Z must call an end to martial law and return Ukraine to democracy, then and only then will we know if he is trusted by the ordinary voter. Until democracy is returned to the people Z governs as a NATO comedian, presiding over war, sorrow and death, although there is nothing funny about the 20 Million that fled abroad and the 100's of thousands maimed and deceased.

Choose between a negotiated peace and settlement with Russia through the Trump team or military conflict hoping the EU can inflict a strategic defeat on Russia causing a major brics block member to collapse and fracture into chaos and conflicting parts. Is this what the conflict is really about and should the Christian Russian federation lose and collapse would Western corporations then set their sights on stealing control of all that oil and gas for western markets?

If you have a different explanation for this tragic course of events then please share it for all to read.

[Trigger]

Russia isn't invading the Ukraine and has no legal declaration of war with Kiev. Isn't that why Ukrainian citizens still drink in bars and cafes that haven't been flattened by Russia in 3 years. Missiles have hit the energy infrastructure but no civilian centres or Z's ivory bunkers have taken hits. Kiev is largely unaffected by the SMO.

Z must call an end to martial law and return Ukraine to democracy, then and only then will we know if he is trusted by the ordinary voter. Until democracy is returned to the people Z governs as a NATO comedian, presiding over war, sorrow and death, although there is nothing funny about the 20 Million that fled abroad and the 100's of thousands maimed and deceased.

Choose between a negotiated peace and settlement with Russia through the Trump team or military conflict hoping the EU can inflict a strategic defeat on Russia causing a major brics block member to collapse and fracture into chaos and conflicting parts. Is this what the conflict is really about and should the Christian Russian federation lose and collapse would Western corporations then set their sights on stealing control of all that oil and gas for western markets?

If you have a different explanation for this tragic course of events then please share it for all to read.

'Russian troops are amassing on the Ukraine border' 2016 was it or 14?
'Russian rockets have hit several key installations inside Ukraine' 2016 was it or 18?
'Russian tanks have entered into Ukraine territory'

All while Ethel from Ukraine was hanging out her washing.

Remind me again how Ukraine threw the first stone?

[Trigger]

Your point does not alter the fact of what the world saw.

I think you missed my point for an attack on Zelensky and assumed that I either got some sort of gratification from watching him shrink in his chair - I really didn't.

Whether Trump is a diplomat or not, he likes to win because he is a businessman and he knows how to win, he sees weakness and he exploits it - FACT!!!

If that agitates you then you best buckle up as you're in for a rough ride because he has actually made it far worse for Zelensky and his nation with that display of weakness.

You then pose a rather silly question regarding Hitler invading England, well if I had been around in 1939 then of course I would have defended my country, I am from a military family, my Grandfather fought at Dunkirk, the other died on the Somme in 1916, my Uncles both fought in Burma, one was POW and was tortured by the Japanese.
My Father did national service, my 2 nieces did several tours including Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq, my nephew was 18 when he went to Kuwait then Basra in Iraq, he also did 2 tours of Afghanistan with the Para Reg, he further went on to the SAS fighting phoney illegal wars caused by Western aggression that has destabilised the world.

I once would have fought for this country but not now and I am glad my family are no longer serving either.

I support Ukraine because at least their men didn't abandon their country, wives and children, to cross several borders to get to the UK, they stayed and fought.

You are new member therefore you will not have read that my family and I had applied to take in a Ukrainian family but because of Gov incompetence, one visa was delayed and by the time it was issued the other 3 visas had expired and that family had to relocate to Germany. My mate and his wife took in one lad and has paid for him to go through University.

Still think I live in an Ivory tower?

How many did you take in?

A fact is information without emotion.
An opinion is information with experience.
Ignorance is an opinion lacking information.
And, stupidity is an opinion that ignores fact.

Have you any proof of all you write, because i can't just take your written word for ALL of that.

Anyone can write such.

[Sean_Nile]

I watched a movie last night about the Jazz ambassadors Louie Armstrong and Dizzy Gillespie, "Sound track of a coup d'etat", and it was all linked into the fight for independence in the Congo.

And I thought the Congo in the 1960s and Ukraine today both represent battlegrounds where natural resources fuel geopolitical conflicts. In Congo, the Shinkolobwe mine’s uranium, essential for nuclear weapons, attracted intense Western interest, particularly from the U.S. and Belgium.

Similarly, Ukraine holds significant reserves of rare metals like lithium, vital for modern technology and that is what the major powers want to get their hands on. The fight for control over these resources places both nations at the center of global power struggles.

Foreign interference played a pivotal role in destabilizing both countries. Patrice Lumumba, Congo’s first prime minister, sought to assert national sovereignty over the country’s resources, threatening Western interests.

His assassination in 1961, backed by the CIA and Belgian forces, illustrates how external powers remove leaders who challenge their influence. Today, Volodymyr Zelensky faces comparable pressures, balancing Ukraine's independence against the competing interests of Western allies and Russian aggression.

Both countries risk fragmentation if their leaders are overthrown or the wars destabilize them further. After Lumumba's death, Congo descended into dictatorship and foreign-backed puppet regimes.

If Ukraine's war weakens Western support or ends unfavorably, it could face a similar fate, divided into zones controlled by rival powers. While Ukraine currently enjoys stronger international backing, the underlying pattern of resource-driven conflicts and vulnerable leadership echoes the tragic history of Congo.

Just a little case of history repeating. Even the speech of Lumumba to King
Baudouin mirroring Zelensky's spirited talk back to Trump.