Financial statement.

[YorkshireSquare]

According to the YEP, player sales (including McCormack's sale) are not included in these figures. It does seem to me that Cellino has been doing a good job with the club, and elsewhere has said that now the club is on a viable footing, they can look at recruiting plyers for the next step. Don't go thinking I am a Cellino apologist, I'm not, but I have to give him due for the improvement. Let's put it this way, when the FL ban him again, this club is going to be far more attractive to investors or purchasers, as it is now looking like MC has sorted out the convoluted maze of debt that Bates and GFH left behind.

The key form me in this is 'maze of debt that Bates and GFH left behind', the problem is GFH haven't left anything behind, they are still here, they still own us, what proportion we do not know. What deals Cellino has managed to do with them I do now know but we still pay them money, we still have debts to them. They complicate everything, they make Cellino's life complicated, they make a sale extremely complicated.

[Drs.Dad]

Lovely to read a honest balanced opinion, without it/you getting torn a new one, long may it continue

MOT is not the Dark Side!

[Drs.Dad]

Player sales are included in the figures, they have to be. They just weren't mentioned in the statement.

Sheilds, I can only go on the Yorkshire Posts ( not the YEP as I said earlier) article, I'm assuming they check up on this sort of thing to ensure correct reporting, or am I being naïve?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/fo ... -1-7746418

[YorkshireSquare]

Sheilds, I can only go on the Yorkshire Posts ( not the YEP as I said earlier) article, I'm assuming they check up on this sort of thing to ensure correct reporting, or am I being naïve?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/fo ... -1-7746418

There is nothing for them to check up on, they are only going by the same statement we have. The headline isn't even explained in the article anyway.

The statement "However, player sales does not seem to have been taken into account" I think just refers to the fact that it's not mentioned specifically in the statement. A football not mentioning player sales or purchases in their headline turnover figures would be somewhat misleading. We shall have to wait for the accounts to be available to see.

[1964white]

MOT is not the Dark Side!

Certainly isn't mate. Those goons on there have twisted everything of what was good news about the sound financial position of our club into a web of lies, deceit & skulduggery. Their hatred has put off the majority of members who share different opinions. Depressive reading, pointless debating with such people

[YorkshireSquare]

Certainly isn't mate. Those goons on there have twisted everything of what was good news about the sound financial position of our club into a web of lies, deceit & skulduggery. Their hatred has put off the majority of members who share different opinions. Depressive reading, pointless debating with such people

I don't even think there is much new hear, it is consistent with the position Cellino has said we would be in for this financial year and we know it was going to be more positive and within the FFP rules because the Football League lifted the transfer embargo after they received their advanced copy of the books.

I think the detail is in the debt, who that lays with and how it is structured but that's a different story. My main concern is we are shrinking club, Cellino expects turnover and attendances to drop again in the 2015-2016 accounts, and tat will affect our ability to push on without major investment.

[Wolfetoneleeds]

I don't even think there is much new hear, it is consistent with the position Cellino has said we would be in for this financial year and we know it was going to be more positive and within the FFP rules because the Football League lifted the transfer embargo after they received their advanced copy of the books.

I think the detail is in the debt, who that lays with and how it is structured but that's a different story. My main concern is we are shrinking club, Cellino expects turnover and attendances to drop again in the 2015-2016 accounts, and tat will affect our ability to push on without major investment.

And it will continue to this mad man goes!!
Thinking the debt we owe gfh is the telling key, I don't read much into accounts been shown, very easily miss certain stuff out!
We show absolutely no ambition with cellino!
If a buyer doesn't come in then it's going to get worse

[1964white]

If a buyer doesn't come in then it's going to get worse

In other words kill LUFC in the end :bang:

Ah well i have Yorkshire Cricket to follow in the summer and would head off & watch the Rhinos on a more regular basis should our fans destroy my beloved football club

[Wolfetoneleeds]

Cmon Leon, fans are not gonna destroy the club!
Theirs on one person that will do that!!
Fans that show passion to wanting him out is not a bad thing.
If Leeds goes tits up that it for me I'm afraid it's only Leeds!
I don't even watch other football cause I'm that pissed off the way the modern game is going..

He is being very very quiet lately, he is up to something or someone is coming buy/invest in the club

[1964white]

Cmon Leon, fans are not gonna destroy the club!
Theirs on one person that will do that!!
Fans that show passion to wanting him out is not a bad thing.
If Leeds goes tits up that it for me I'm afraid it's only Leeds!
I don't even watch other football cause I'm that pissed off the way the modern game is going..

He is being very very quiet lately, he is up to something or someone is coming buy/invest in the club

Unconvinced there is a new owner out there who is willing to invest in our club Wolfie. Hope i'm wrong, I'd be pleased if something materialises as i'm fed up with negativity/fans unrest/Leeds on Leeds at games/horrible atmosphere. My wish is to see 30k fans flocking to ER again & supporting their team on the pitch.

[gessa]

Unconvinced there is a new owner out there who is willing to invest in our club Wolfie. Hope i'm wrong, I'd be pleased if something materialises as i'm fed up with negativity/fans unrest/Leeds on Leeds at games/horrible atmosphere. My wish is to see 30k fans flocking to ER again & supporting their team on the pitch.

Not sure the pitch will hold 30,000 mate.
Plus it would make it difficult for the players.

[The Subhuman]

And it will continue to this mad man goes!!
Thinking the debt we owe gfh is the telling key, I don't read much into accounts been shown, very easily miss certain stuff out!
We show absolutely no ambition with cellino!
If a buyer doesn't come in then it's going to get worse

How do you know we're not showing ambition?

By the way the answer is simple...put down enough money and he'll sell. Everything has a price.

[1964white]

Not sure the pitch will hold 30,000 mate.
Plus it would make it difficult for the players.

[gessa]

How do you know we're not showing ambition?

By the way the answer is simple...put down enough money and he'll sell. Everything has a price.

But if the price is to clear the total debt, approx £65-£75M, depending on what we're into gfh for, looking at the initial figures, plus whatever else he may want on top, then who the hell would pay that for a club that doesn't even own its own ground, player values what £18M, not a good investment unless you want to by potential and that's a lot of money for potential. We're stuck with him for the forseeable future I'd say.

[gessa]

nicked from waccoe posted by someone who was asked their opinion, only has 10 posts so can't be accused of being one of the haters, interesting reading, clearly we need to see the final accounts

The Club’s statement holds few surprises for me as most information has been published before and doesn’t introduce much that wasn’t already known last summer. I’ve seen a lot of confusion today and if I can explain some of the statement I will, but I have no insider knowledge and have not yet seen the full published accounts – they may differ in exact detail but I hope my broad brush approach will be useful. If I’ve misunderstood something I would welcome the Club explaining that to me at the earliest opportunity and I will publish corrections.

The Profit and Loss account of 2014 showed a loss of £22.9m. It is important to understand how that is constructed:

1) The loss had £2.6m deferred taxation included. This is tax that fell due in 2011 when Ken Bates had the club and could be deferred for four years. The 2014 accounts took the hit. The accounts for 2014 clearly state no such tax charge is due for 2015 so immediately losses reduce by £2.6m.
2) The 2014 accounts had a huge interest charge of around £2m for debts due to GFH. When GFH sold the club to Cellino a much more sensible and realistic interest charge was applied which reduced these interest changes by around £1.3m.
3) These two factors knock £4m off the losses just by themselves.
4) It has been widely reported that GFH charged the Club management fees and I’ve seen wild figures up to £1.5m per month quoted. The reality would seem to be much less though equally damaging to the Club. The exact fees GFH charged are hidden in the accounts but close examination shows there was at least £6m charged and still unpaid in the 2013/14 accounts. Further analysis seems to indicate that another £2m could well have been paid in cash before Cellino took over. Thus when GFH sold the Club and could no longer charge these fees it meant around £8m was also knocked off the 2014 losses. Total reduction so far: £12m approx and we now know the losses without any owner doing anything would then be £10m for 2014/15.
5) Not finished yet...
6) We know that the Club spent money buying players and also sold players. The Club today indicated it made player purchases of £6.1m but has yet to announce how much profit it made in player sales.
7) From a profit/loss point of view, this £6.1m is amortised over the length of the contracts so if 3 year contracts were signed, for instance, this would only put £2m onto the loss side of the profit and loss account.
8) We made substantial money from player sales but from a profit and loss point of view it is not simple for outsiders to understand as that money must have the amortised costs brought in and any sell on clauses must be accounted for. Ross’s sale with sell on clauses did not give us £11m profit on the accounts and after all the ins and outs are considered my envelope working out the figure has £6m net profit from all player sales written on it.
9) Without player sales etc I was expecting a £10m loss for the year but selling and buying players, with the amortisation accounted for, knocks that loss down to a mere £4m.
10) Please remember that player ins and outs is the hardest figure to work out and may be a little wrong.
11) I think we can all remember that the services of personnel at the Club were dispensed with. We all know the squad size has reduced so it is obvious the wage bill has gone done. The numbers I’ve seen bandied around on social media, and indeed the written press, do not seem based on published information but I’ve always assumed cost savings would amount to around £3m – this takes the expected loss down to £1m.
12) On the converse, we know that fans are voting with their feet and attendances have fallen so ticket money has fallen. We know that fewer people in the ground means lower sales of beer, pies etc so merchandise sales have fallen. Please remember that these accounts are for the period before increased ticket prices through category inflation and forced merchandise purchases known as the pie tax so there is no revenue increase due to these measures, that will show in next year’s accounts. I’ve long been aware that commercial revenue was under pressure and felt it would fall; again don’t forget that the Hesco stand sponsorship ran out after these accounts and the lack of a shirt sponsor will affect 2015/16 accounts and not the year in question. I don’t know how much each of these have been affected but I expected a fall in income and sure enough in 2015 we had a turnover of £24m down from £32m just fours ago. This increased the loss in my estimates from £1m up to £2m.

I’m waiting for the detailed accounts to see just how right or wrong I am. I’ll hold my hand up if I’m wrong but these are my honest opinions based upon published facts – not title tattle.


The Balance Sheet is similarly expected. Once the above profit and loss is put against the 2014 balance sheet, the 2015 balance sheet emerges showing a net worth of around £1m which the Club’s statement confirms.

As others have pointed out that means that the Club is technically worth £1m, but it is a meaningless figure for a company looking to invest in the future. From my experience in business and looking for banks etc to loan me money (for instance to repurchase Elland Road using a mortgage as Massimo Cellino has said he was attempting - £7.5m was the figure he was seeking, I think) banking/financial institutions use a different analysis of the accounts to come up with a figure they think the company is worth and will only lend less than that figure.

This Club statement leads me to believe that the accounts, when they are published, will mean that financial institutions will value the Club for loan or mortgage purposes at worse than NEGATIVE £6m. In other words the Club would still be refused a mortgage to repurchase Elland Road.


I would explain other things but my supper is ready. However, I will say that if the Club’s statement is true then I feel it is more than likely the Club’s statement on ownership currently contains falsehoods.

[hibbi86]

Personally for me alot of what is being said is guess work, i do not fully understand how accounts work the numbers but from what i do understand about accounting from my work is that if i purchased something and i paid for it that year i would have expected it to be on the P&L for that year not amortised over the duration of its useage

[YorkshireSquare]

Sheilds, I can only go on the Yorkshire Posts ( not the YEP as I said earlier) article, I'm assuming they check up on this sort of thing to ensure correct reporting, or am I being naïve?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/fo ... -1-7746418

And here is your contradictory headline...

Leeds slash losses by 91 per cent with cost-cutting and McCormack’s sale

The statistics were recorded despite a slight fall in revenue, with the figures helped by cuts to operating costs at Elland Road and money earned from the sale of players, including Ross McCormack’s £11m transfer to Fulham in July 2014.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/fo ... -1-7747466

[gessa]

Personally for me alot of what is being said is guess work, i do not fully understand how accounts work the numbers but from what i do understand about accounting from my work is that if i purchased something and i paid for it that year i would have expected it to be on the P&L for that year not amortised over the duration of its useage

Transfers are a pain when trying to understand football accounts, the fee can be paid over the term of a players contract, ie if Cook did go to B'Mouth for £10 M and the contract was signed for 5 years, we may get paid £2M per year, which is only one scenario, it could be half now half in 2 years, lots of different formula, which make it a pain trying to put a clear picture on accounts. Nothing is guaranteed until the full set of accounts are published and even then some of it still may be guess work but it will be a lot clearer. The downside of these accounts so far is the revenue is decreasing and debt is increasing, this years gates are lower than last so it is more than likely revenue will shrink again, not good if we want to compete in the transfer market, it points to more sales than purchases.

[Durly]

In other words kill LUFC in the end :bang:

Ah well i have Yorkshire Cricket to follow in the summer and would head off & watch the Rhinos on a more regular basis should our fans destroy my beloved football club

C'mon mate. The fans aren't going to destroy the club. Fans have never been known to destroy football clubs. That's done pretty much exclusively by owners. Ridsdale and Bates both had a damn good crack at it here. Look at other clubs where it's happened. It's always the owners.

Fans have a right to protest if they feel something is badly wrong with the ownership at their club. As long as that protesting doesn't lead to or incorporate intimidation of other supporters who hold a different view to themselves.

I agree with your subsequent post though. The Leeds on Leeds stuff is getting tiresome.

[1964white]

C'mon mate. The fans aren't going to destroy the club. Fans have never been known to destroy football clubs. That's done pretty much exclusively by owners. Ridsdale and Bates both had a damn good crack at it here. Look at other clubs where it's happened. It's always the owners.

Fans have a right to protest if they feel something is badly wrong with the ownership at their club. As long as that protesting doesn't lead to or incorporate intimidation of other supporters who hold a different view to themselves.

I agree with your subsequent post though. The Leeds on Leeds stuff is getting tiresome.

The Leeds on Leeds aggro is horrible mate, i'm witnessing it far too often at away games.

If there isn't an prospective buyer out there & Cellino decides enough is enough, where does that leave our club ??

Ridsdale, Bates & GFH were the main contributors to our problems.

If 25k to 30k turned up at ER every home game we would benefit from the additional revenue with the opportunity of signing better players. We can't exist on 17k or less attendances especially as we have to pay rent on ER/TA then there are players/staff salaries plus the day to day running costs that come with a club such as Leeds United.

I envisage major problems for our future, the black hole is imminent once again !

Worrying times ahead