Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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Cjay
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Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by Cjay »

May be jumping the gun here, he isnt even confirmed.

But, his style is the style we strive for anyways, so the point still stands.

Regarding Bielsa his style is basically the same as Pep so dont need to go into detail, press press press, high energy, quick turnover, overwhelm the opposition etc etc.

One of the big criticisms Bielsa has from his critics is "he hasnt won much, never managed a big club".

Partially true, despite the clear respect the footballing world have for him, Barcelona appointed two people who are confessed disciples of Bielsa after all, Pep and Martino.

Pep and another of Bielsa's students in Pochettino now in England, regarded as two of the very best, another of his students is in charge of Argentina, another is at Atletico Madrid etc.

Yet the master has never had one of those real big club roles, and consequently his trophy cupboard isnt as stacked as one may expect.

Personally the answer is clear, he is simply to unpredictable for the big boys, thats fair enough, and there is only so much he could do with the likes of Lille, Bilbao and Marseille, with the greatest will in the world they were never really in a position to trouble the big boys in there respective countries.

I digress.

So the reason Bielsa has never got the big jobs isnt a coaching thing for me, he clearly is a quality coach, 4th with Marseille was no disgrace, what he did at Bilbao was good, still regarded very well there.

His ideas clearly work, but like anything they are limited by the quality of the squad, in the end, no matter the class of the coach they will be a limit to what they can achieve.

Pep couldnt dominate French football with Marseille, nor Spanish with Bilbao, so cant mark Bielsa down for that.

This is turning into a bit of a ramble, so shall try and get to the point.

The style Bielsa teaches is basically what Pep used at Barcelona, Manchester City and Bayern. Its basically what Pochettino uses at Spurs, its the same as Diego Simeone at Atletico Madrid.

Now im not sure if these two men are self confessed disciples of Bielsa but Antonio Conte has apparently attended lectures or whatever you want to call them to see Bielsa speak, Jurgen Klopp and his pressing style to, very similar to Bielsa.

But here comes the point.

Bayern Munich, Tottenham, Manchester City, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea, Juventus, Liverpool.

Those teams all have one thing in common.
Big money and deep squads.

The style Bielsa teaches works, look at the clubs who use it, but it comes at a price, Bielsa's teams traditionally burn out, the style is so hard, so exhausting, if you havent got a big squad who can interchange easily then it doesnt work for long.

Thats why he hasnt got the accolades his ability probably deserves, he has never been at a club who can give him that sort of depth.

Am i rambling, or does this make sense to someone? :lol:

I worry that his style cant work without the depth and quality that the elite squads have that the rest of us dont. Hence why Bielsa's teams burn out, like they couldnt provide those squads, i doubt we can to?
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by Norm »

A conundrum but I think you may be right. TC wasn't given the necessary backing. It turns out he was the right appointment but needed those players Orta/Radz didn't think necessary to complete the team to TC's intended specifications. So, is Radz about to make a second identical mistake or has he realised how badly TC was mismanaged by his own (Radz') insufficiency and wanted to acquire the 49er funds to let Bielsa succeed by providing the players he'll need to make it work.

It's a difficult one - Radz may be playing a more high-risk strategy than we thought.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by Norm »

By the way Cjay, you called it correctly on Heckingbottom before he was appointed and I think your analysis of our latest potential managerial acquisition is also spot on.

Kudos to you, a young man with wisdom beyond your years. :tup:
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by tomat26 »

Just wish I had 1% of Cjay's get up and go....well done young man. 😉
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by The Subhuman »

Cjay wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 pm

Personally the answer is clear, he is simply to unpredictable for the big boys, thats fair enough, and there is only so much he could do with the likes of Lille, Bilbao and Marseille, with the greatest will in the world they were never really in a position to trouble the big boys in there respective countries.

I digress.

So the reason Bielsa has never got the big jobs isnt a coaching thing for me, he clearly is a quality coach, 4th with Marseille was no disgrace, what he did at Bilbao was good, still regarded very well there.

His ideas clearly work, but like anything they are limited by the quality of the squad, in the end, no matter the class of the coach they will be a limit to what they can achieve.

Pep couldnt dominate French football with Marseille, nor Spanish with Bilbao, so cant mark Bielsa down for that.

This is turning into a bit of a ramble, so shall try and get to the point.

The style Bielsa teaches is basically what Pep used at Barcelona, Manchester City and Bayern. Its basically what Pochettino uses at Spurs, its the same as Diego Simeone at Atletico Madrid.

Now im not sure if these two men are self confessed disciples of Bielsa but Antonio Conte has apparently attended lectures or whatever you want to call them to see Bielsa speak, Jurgen Klopp and his pressing style to, very similar to Bielsa.

But here comes the point.

Bayern Munich, Tottenham, Manchester City, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea, Juventus, Liverpool.

Those teams all have one thing in common.
Big money and deep squads.
Have you considered he's just a very very good teacher of managers? Not so hot at actually doing the job him self.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by SG90 »

Don't agree with the "he's never managed a big club" line, Marseille are bigger than us and he's also managed at the World Cup, so he's had huge expectations before coming here. He's also dropping a few levels to come to the Championship. I always said we need a manager who will be able to cope, has managed at a higher level, plays good football and is respected and we look to have got him.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by SG90 »

I don't see why Bielsa would struggle with the "intimidating" Championship, that's full of empty seats, zero atmosphere and crap football. People said TC would struggle and he was no lower than 10th and Bielsa is much better than him. Meanwhile Hecky "knows the league" and was utter dross.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by BrewerLeeds »

Hmmm I see what you mean about the squad and depth. For Bielsa's tactic to work he'd need to bring in a few players, particularly those who can pass and with plenty of energy.

Last season Leeds completed 72.5% of all passes within 50.1% possession on average.

If we all agree Pep is the closest to his ideals then for comparisons sake Manchester City achieved 89% out of 66.4%. Tactics will go only so far to bridging that gap.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by Ratscoot »

BrewerLeeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:33 am Hmmm I see what you mean about the squad and depth. For Bielsa's tactic to work he'd need to bring in a few players, particularly those who can pass and with plenty of energy.

Last season Leeds completed 72.5% of all passes within 50.1% possession on average.

If we all agree Pep is the closest to his ideals then for comparisons sake Manchester City achieved 89% out of 66.4%. Tactics will go only so far to bridging that gap.
Agree Brewer but I for one say bring it on it can’t be any worse than some (not all) of the dross we’ve been served up in the last few years
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by BrewerLeeds »

Ratscoot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:44 am Agree Brewer but I for one say bring it on it can’t be any worse than some (not all) of the dross we’ve been served up in the last few years
Agree with you on that - my concerns are will he backed up in the transfer market appropriately? Will Orta find the right players?
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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Norm wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:47 am A conundrum but I think you may be right. TC wasn't given the necessary backing. It turns out he was the right appointment but needed those players Orta/Radz didn't think necessary to complete the team to TC's intended specifications. So, is Radz about to make a second identical mistake or has he realised how badly TC was mismanaged by his own (Radz') insufficiency and wanted to acquire the 49er funds to let Bielsa succeed by providing the players he'll need to make it work.

It's a difficult one - Radz may be playing a more high-risk strategy than we thought.
Bielsa makes sense because of his style, if you want to copy Barcelona then who better then one of the innovators?

As you say, hopefully Radz has learnt from his own mistakes and will provide the players Bielsa requires.

If not this will go wrong fast imo.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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Norm wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:27 am By the way Cjay, you called it correctly on Heckingbottom before he was appointed and I think your analysis of our latest potential managerial acquisition is also spot on.

Kudos to you, a young man with wisdom beyond your years. :tup:
Thanks Norm :)

I shall try to not let your praise go to my head.

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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by Cjay »

faaip wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:33 am Have you considered he's just a very very good teacher of managers? Not so hot at actually doing the job him self.
Possibly.

But the fact all his sides start well and burn out suggests to me that its a squad/recruitment issue more then him.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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tomat26 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:00 am Just wish I had 1% of Cjay's get up and go....well done young man. 😉
Ironically only 1% of my rambles make sense :)

Merci.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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SG90 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:15 am Don't agree with the "he's never managed a big club" line, Marseille are bigger than us and he's also managed at the World Cup, so he's had huge expectations before coming here. He's also dropping a few levels to come to the Championship. I always said we need a manager who will be able to cope, has managed at a higher level, plays good football and is respected and we look to have got him.
Misunderstand SG.

The "never managed a big club" line is what his critics say, and he hasn't, not a real big club like Madrid etc.

He has managed bigger then us of course, im sure the pressure wont bother him, he has had the weight of 2 nations on his shoulders.

I agree on your assessment of what we need.

Just dont know if we can provide him with what he needs.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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BrewerLeeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:33 am Hmmm I see what you mean about the squad and depth. For Bielsa's tactic to work he'd need to bring in a few players, particularly those who can pass and with plenty of energy.

Last season Leeds completed 72.5% of all passes within 50.1% possession on average.

If we all agree Pep is the closest to his ideals then for comparisons sake Manchester City achieved 89% out of 66.4%. Tactics will go only so far to bridging that gap.
Hopefully because Orta is the driving force behind Bielsa he will do everything Bielsa needs.

Realistically how many in our squad suit Bielsa's style?

Bet it isnt many.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by BrewerLeeds »

Cjay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:08 pm Hopefully because Orta is the driving force behind Bielsa he will do everything Bielsa needs.

Realistically how many in our squad suit Bielsa's style?

Bet it isnt many.
I would suggest those possession and pass statistics would back that up. Granted there's more to the tactic than that, but you need players who can hold the ball, move it and press the moment they lose it.

No other way to look at it, we need new players.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

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BrewerLeeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:55 am Agree with you on that - my concerns are will he backed up in the transfer market appropriately? Will Orta find the right players?
Again agree with you, but I suspect there’s no way he’s agreeing to this without guarantees on backroom staff, money and recruitment plus I think it’s potentially also great news for our development squads who have been playing this way all last season.
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by The Subhuman »

Cjay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:57 am Possibly.

But the fact all his sides start well and burn out suggests to me that its a squad/recruitment issue more then him.
See that to me suggests inability to man manage and to adapt once teams work him out. It may also have something to do with the weird training he puts in place, no idea how defence learns to link with midfield if they never practice together. Fast starters tend to suggest luck and other unsustainable factors are in play..

I'm happier with a slow start and build. Winning games early says nothing about a managers capability
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Re: Nagging Doubt about El Loco

Post by 1964white »

How does this 3-3-1-3 work then ?

I've just googled this for more information

The 3-3-1-3 is an extremely aggressive attacking formation that relies heavily on possession based football. Obviously you need to be able to pass well and keep possession.

Well that's us up the creek then ;-)
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