What another shambles!

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YorkshireSquare
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by YorkshireSquare » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:03 am

SaraM wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:58 am
If the result had been accepted by Parliament (don't forget, both main parties campaigned in 2017 on a promise to implement the result), and no deal had been prepared for from day one of triggering Article 50, we'd be out and sorted by now.

Still don’t think 48/52 is enough of a margin to make such monumental change. Especially since the terms of leaving weren’t given before the referendum.

My constituency votes remain, I wouldn’t want my MP voting against that.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:16 am

YorkshireSquare wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:03 am
Still don’t think 48/52 is enough of a margin to make such monumental change. Especially since the terms of leaving weren’t given before the referendum.

My constituency votes remain, I wouldn’t want my MP voting against that.
Monumental changes had already been made without any vote at all. We should have had a referendum over the Treaty of Lisbon.

Apart from which, one vote is a sufficient majority for making decisions in Parliament. Leave won by 1.3 million votes, in the biggest turnout and the biggest mandate in history.

Remain supporters weren't complaining about the terms of the referendum before it took place; you can't retrospectively change the rules because you don't like the result.

The terms of leaving are a side issue, the choice was binary between leave and remain. Having voted to leave, that decision should be implemented by any means necessary. May won the election on a slogan of no deal is better than a bad deal, so it is wrong to say there is no mandate for that option.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by hector » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:45 am

YorkshireSquare wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:03 am
Still don’t think 48/52 is enough of a margin to make such monumental change. Especially since the terms of leaving weren’t given before the referendum.

My constituency votes remain, I wouldn’t want my MP voting against that.
Still don’t think 48/52 is enough of a margin to make such monumental change. Especially since the terms of leaving weren’t given before the referendum.
but would you be saying that if the result was the other way round with leave winning by that majority?
My constituency votes remain, I wouldn’t want my MP voting against that.
So how do you think the voters in the leave constituencies feel about their MP's Voting to remain?

The thing is, the referendum happened.
The result needs to be implemented.

anytning else happens as it has for the last 3 years, and it makes a complete mockery of democracy.

Let's vote for Putin to come and rule us, at least decisions will be made :shock: :shock: :P ;-)
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by YorkshireSquare » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:09 am

Absolutely hector, I don’t think 48/52 is enough for this kind of change.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t honour the vote now, I’m just saying those who arranged it should have had a plan and it should have been a cross party process, not lead by one divided party.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by lufc1304 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:10 am

The result of the referendum does not NEED to be implemented, it was advisory, not binding. At any rate, it was a sop by the pig-shagger to the far right of his party, as he was in fear of losing MPs to UKIP. As someone else pointed out, the general public were too ignorant of all the implications of what leaving or remaining entailed to be offered the choice. Now that those implacations are known, the people should be allowed to vote on whether they want to stay, leave on Johnson's deal (which will have major implications for Ireland, north and south) or crash out with no deal. No deal is the preferred choice of Johnson and Co. Hedge funds with links to Johnson and/or Leave have gone short on the pound to the tune of £8.3bn. A no deal means a run on the pound and huge dividends for these shysters. Whatever your view on the EU, follow the money, that's what's driving this debacle.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:31 am

And I thought we were a democratic country.....obviously not :(

Had the result been for remaining in the EU I doubt there would have been such the same outcry with MP's thinking about their own ego's above the peoples vote

If the decision of three years ago in not implemented I can guarantee Jill & I will never vote again & I know 1000's of others who feel the same

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by YorkshireSquare » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:38 am

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:31 am
And I thought we were a democratic country.....obviously not :(

Try telling my EU born friends who live and work here, married British citizens and have British kids who weren’t allowed to vote that we live in a democratic country.

The same people who now have to apply to stay with no guarantees.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:49 am

YorkshireSquare wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:38 am
Try telling my EU born friends who live and work here, married British citizens and have British kids who weren’t allowed to vote that we live in a democratic country.

The same people who now have to apply to stay with no guarantees.
There has to be some control especially with so many illegal immigrants who have flooded the UK

Your friends Adam will be guaranteed a stay in the UK, I have no doubt of that. We know Polish folk who live locally, really decent hard working people who don't seem to be concerned about the current EU issues, they just get on with their lives now they have settled in England

All this talk about British citizens not being given permission to live here is purely scaremongering !

One other point the Poles, Latvians, Asians, etc are more hard working than many of our British workforce who are a embarrassment imo !

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by faaip » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:54 am

Interesting vote yesterday, rock and a hard place was on offer. Boris wins and he gets a mandate to govern for a lot longer and we get our Donald Trump worst possible scenario running the country. Lose and we get more uncertainty holding the country back...

Not sure what side I'm on...I'd be happy to leave the EU, I wouldn't be too bothered if we stayed in. My biggest fear is 5 plus years of a moron and a clown running the country by whatever means he deems reasonable.

I'm not sure democracy is possible without some sort of PR
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by YorkshireSquare » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:55 am

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:49 am
All this talk about British citizens not being given permission to live here is purely scaremongering !

Anyway, I’m here to talk about the football.

So I’ll stick to that.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:01 am

YorkshireSquare wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:55 am
Anyway, I’m here to talk about the football.

So I’ll stick to that.
Good to hear peoples opinions on here though. I think we're all sensible enough to respect each others views on this important matter.

Talking football .....Are we still on our way to the premiership or do we need a vote :lol:

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by hector » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:15 am

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:01 am
Good to hear peoples opinions on here though. I think we're all sensible enough to respect each others views on this important matter.

Talking football .....Are we still on our way to the premiership or do we need a vote :lol:
And if we vote can we change our minds before it happens ?? ;-)
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by YorkshireSquare » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:19 am

Just a n a football/brexit subject...

Has anyone clarified what happens with EU players once we leave? Will the same rules that apply to non-EU international transfers apply? E.g will they have to have represented their country a certain proportion of times etc
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by faaip » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:23 am

YorkshireSquare wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:19 am
Just a n a football/brexit subject...

Has anyone clarified what happens with EU players once we leave? Will the same rules that apply to non-EU international transfers apply? E.g will they have to have represented their country a certain proportion of times etc
And would it be good for English football if it were harder to recruit overseas players
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by wilsdenwhite » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:24 am

I think we need a parliament version of VAR.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by Chilli D » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:38 pm

hector wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:09 am
Whatever reasons the referendum was for, the fact is, the public qualified or not had a vote, and a result was announced... Now that result was promised to be implemented, that should happen, and then, another referendum could be possible, to try to change what has happened, but not until the 1st one has been implemented....

Project fear from the remain party was fairly intimidating during the whole process, and I for one was looking forward to be living in caves again by this year.... ( oh hang on that didn't happen) we should now be in the middle of WW3 according to the project fear lot and in the middle of the biggest recession ever...

Lots of lies by both sides, but the fact remains, we voted to leave (rightly or wrongly) and that should happen before any more votes.
Spot on Hector

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:00 pm

lufc1304 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:10 am
The result of the referendum does not NEED to be implemented, it was advisory, not binding.

Article 50 was passed into law, and the two main parties, representing 80% of the vote, campaigned on the promise to enact the result. The only people saying it isn't 'binding' are those who wish to subvert the result.

As someone else pointed out, the general public were too ignorant of all the implications of what leaving or remaining entailed to be offered the choice.

Speak for yourself. And what a disgusting, elitist attitude, displaying a complete contempt for the voice of ordinary people, as well as a contempt for the democratic process.

Now that those implacations are known, the people should be allowed to vote on whether they want to stay, leave on Johnson's deal (which will have major implications for Ireland, north and south) or crash out with no deal.

The only thing we know for certain now that we didn't know before is that the EU had no intention of offering an acceptable deal, and that the snakes in Westminster had no intention of honouring their promises. You have no more idea than before how the EU will fare in the future, or how the UK will fare if we leave. The only thing that is certain is that we have more chance of holding Westminster to account than we do Brussels, and that has been clear all along.


Whatever your view on the EU, follow the money, that's what's driving this debacle.

What's driving it is a financial elite who aren't going to let something like a democratic vote get in the way of their banking and corporate interests. Just like they didn't with Greece. The EU has the only constitution in the world that is committed to neoliberal economics; so yes, follow the money.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:04 pm

1964white wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:31 am
If the decision of three years ago in not implemented I can guarantee Jill & I will never vote again & I know 1000's of others who feel the same
Same here.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by dezzy » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:33 pm

Do ye not feel angry at all the blatant lies that were told during the lead up to the referendum? Do ye not worry about what will happen if ye leave without a deal? Is the EU that bad? Is Britain strong enough to stand alone? Do you trust the politicians who are a laughing stock to guide ye through the process? What happens to Scotland and Northern Ireland in a few years? What if they leave and join the EU?
If I was British, or living in Britain I would be very worried. The referendum asked a very simple question, leave yes or no, I can see why people would wanting more control over how your country is run, but to achieve that ye now know what you will lose as a result and what ye will gain. There is a much clearer picture, surely a referendum on stay in the EU or accept whatever deal is in place or a hard brexit would be a logical step?
From the outside looking in, I’d be asking myself why did so many Tories leave their party over how they were going about brexit.
Anyone who would be happy with a hard brexit is deluded, how long will it take to set up new trade deals with other countries?
The EU are desperate for Britain to stay, il sure if it came to it, a good leader could negotiate a few tweeks to the current arrangement.
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am

dezzy wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:33 pm
Do ye not feel angry at all the blatant lies that were told during the lead up to the referendum?

The biggest lie was that the establishment would implement the result, and that is what I feel angry about. The campaign was rife with propaganda by both sides, with the remain side paid for out of taxpayers money. I didn't base my decision on any of it.

Do ye not worry about what will happen if ye leave without a deal?

No. There may be economic hardships, there may not. We have just had ten years of Tory austerity within the EU which has caused death and misery for millions. Again, I didn't base my decision on economic forecasts. Capitalism is on borrowed time in any case, continual growth is not sustainable due to financialisation of the markets, finite resources and rampant inequality.

Is the EU that bad?

Yes, it is. It is an unaccountable power base constitutionally founded on neoliberal principles. Essentially, it's a bosses club designed to maximise the power and profit of banks and corporations, at the expense of working people and national sovereignty. I'm no nationalist, but to date, elected parliaments subject collective bargaining and popular pressure are the means by which working people have been able to gain the rights we have. Do not believe the guff about the EU protecting our rights against erosion by the Tories, the EU is constitutionally designed to disempower the voter, through an unelected Commission which is the only legislative body, alongside the ECJ which consistently favours the corporate lobby. This very strucure is also what protects it against democratic reform, because the mechanisms of reform simply aren't there. The stated aim of the EU is to create a federal superstate by means of economic control, and that is exactly what they are doing. Again, don't believe the guff about a cosy internationalism.

Is Britain strong enough to stand alone?

Probably. It depends what you want. The priority for me is some measure of democratic freedom.

Do you trust the politicians who are a laughing stock to guide ye through the process?

I don't trust anyone in the establishment, they are only interested in maintaining their own wealth and privilege, which is why the majority of them are intent on keeping us in the EU.

What happens to Scotland and Northern Ireland in a few years? What if they leave and join the EU?

Who knows? I think they should be able to determine that for themselves.

If I was British, or living in Britain I would be very worried. The referendum asked a very simple question, leave yes or no, I can see why people would wanting more control over how your country is run, but to achieve that ye now know what you will lose as a result and what ye will gain.

I don't think you can compare the potential short term economic forecast against the certain loss of democratic leverage. Once you understand what the EU is, the only sane choice is to leave it.

There is a much clearer picture, surely a referendum on stay in the EU or accept whatever deal is in place or a hard brexit would be a logical step?

This is all so much snake oil designed to muddy the waters and take away our right to choose. The decision to leave has already been made. Any 'people's vote' which includes remain, or any form of BRINO deal, amounts to an overturning of democracy. This is how the EU operates; keep voting until you get the result they want. It renders the vote meaningless, which is also what they want.

Anyone who would be happy with a hard brexit is deluded.

Anyone who thinks the EU ever had any intention of giving us an acceptable deal is deluded. That should be patently obvious by now.

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