Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by WhiteRose » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:30 pm

onemoreslogan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:09 pm
I think the reason Bielsa is so loyal to his players, why he sticks with them despite poor performances, is because he is trying to foster a team bond among the starters. That, for better or worse, they are all in it together and they are accountable to one another. It may strike some as naive, or idealistic, but that is the kind of man he appears to be and there is something to be said for a team that plays for each other, even if it is a throwback in this cynical age we live in.

If he were more mercenary and clinical then yes, he would drop Bamford or Casilla or anyone when they struggle. But that approach signals to the rest of the team that their place among the starters is insecure, and can encourage finger-pointing and blaming among the players when a mistake is made on the pitch which in turn leads to infighting and resentment.

So while it may appear mad to us that Bielsa tolerates poor showings like Casilla's seemingly without consequence, I suspect there is method involved.

Whether one agrees with this approach is a matter of opinion. Personally, I appreciate it and I very much hope Bielsa will be vindicated by season's end.

I appreciate what you are saying about his methods and maybe it is correct but in my opinion it goes against how people behave. Players should believe that their place is insecure, they should be fighting to perform for their place week in week out, if your assured a place then psychologically you are bound to lose that motivation. It will also de motivate those on the sidelines who are busting a gut in training to get in the side yet it be seemingly impossible to force under performing members of the team out. The other players must be fuming that casilla is still in the team, sure everyone makes mistakes and he has been good for us early this season but you can easily point to 4 games since christmas where a mistake from him has put us a goal down and ended up costing us vital points - in my opinion players who show a continued loss of form should be taken out of the team for a bit for their own good. hoping to Play yourself back to form just costs the team too dear as has been proven.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by SaraM » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:34 pm

onemoreslogan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:09 pm
while it may appear mad to us that Bielsa tolerates poor showings like Casilla's seemingly without consequence, I suspect there is method involved.
I'm sure you're right. Suggesting otherwise really amounts to a lack of trust in the manager.

We may not agree, and I would like to see Meslier given a start, personally, but we are not party to the dressing or training sessions.

I think we do have a very strong team spirit in this group; it is one of our core strengths, and maybe the most important element in getting us over the line. All those talking about the mentality, and hiring psychologists, are overlooking this imo.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by SaraM » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:43 pm

WhiteRose wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:30 pm
Players should believe that their place is insecure, they should be fighting to perform for their place week in week out, if your assured a place then psychologically you are bound to lose that motivation.
Ironically, this is pretty much the exact opposite of the teaching of any recognised school of psychology.

People perform to their best when they are trusted, valued and supported, not when they are undermined or feel insecure.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by rrfierce » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:52 pm

People also can get complacent and made sloppy mistakes, because they know that nothing will happen even if they don't perform.

MB obviously has a different philosophy. To me competition for places is key, knowing that there is someone else equally as good (if not better) that may make take your job if you don't do it well enough.

I pray to god that this unique mentality pays off. I wonder how many of the most successful team coaches or managers think like that.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by WhiteRose » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:02 pm

SaraM wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:43 pm
Ironically, this is pretty much the exact opposite of the teaching of any recognised school of psychology.

People perform to their best when they are trusted, valued and supported, not when they are undermined or feel insecure.


Mayhap you are right, from my perspective different people respond to different methods, where some will respond to trust with renewed effort and determination others will test the limits and take the piss. I'm not suggesting this is the case here but kiko has hardly been performing impeccably the last 10 games or so has he. I dont think his mistakes are through lack of effort just lack of focus.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Mick Jones shoulder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:12 pm

Be interested to know if anyone can point to a player in the past who was, is so hopelessly out of form but have been persisted with especially in goal? I actually think when he is playing well he's decent, currently heads gone.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Mick Jones shoulder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:23 pm

SaraM wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:43 pm

Ironically, this is pretty much the exact opposite of the teaching of any recognised school of psychology.

People perform to their best when they are trusted, valued and supported, not when they are undermined or feel insecure.
But kiko undermines his own confidence with inept performances at the moment.

Confidence can it be measured? You can study behaviour and make a valid judgement but, you having studied the subject would you be 100 90% confident you were right?

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:05 pm

Mick Jones shoulder wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:12 pm
Be interested to know if anyone can point to a player in the past who was, is so hopelessly out of form but have been persisted with especially in goal? I actually think when he is playing well he's decent, currently heads gone.
Revie dropped Sprake for Harvey

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Richard » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:12 pm

I thought we had turned a corner and the team would be full of confidence after the Millwall game but it wasn't to be. I think the pressure got to the team watching that 11 point lead slip away and now it's all even again. The others have caught us up and it is one thing catching a team who are miles clear when you play feeling there is nothing to lose but once the chasing pack were within sniffing distance they froze, they all choked at their chances to leapfrog us, the boot of nerves is now on the other foot.

I expect us to beat Bristol City and I am expecting the chasing pack to struggle as they watch us start to build a points lead again.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Mick Jones shoulder » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm

1964white wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:05 pm
Revie dropped Sprake for Harvey
Certainly did.
Harvey, Scottish International at the time wasn't he?

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by SaraM » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 pm

WhiteRose wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:02 pm
Mayhap you are right, from my perspective different people respond to different methods, where some will respond to trust with renewed effort and determination others will test the limits and take the piss. I'm not suggesting this is the case here but kiko has hardly been performing impeccably the last 10 games or so has he. I dont think his mistakes are through lack of effort just lack of focus.
It probably comes down to playing through it to regain form, or taking time out as damage limitation. There is also the context of Bielsa's lack of rotation generally, in which being dropped now may have more impact on his confidence... dunno.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Cjay » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:00 pm

Tyler Roberts is due to miss a couple of games according to Adam Pope.

I know he took a thump but deary me will he ever be fit for more then 30minutes.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by weasel » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:02 pm

Cjay wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
Tbf to MB he may be protecting Meslier (although not sure he is doing Kiko any favours, heads gone imo).

We saw what being number 1 did to BPF, he made countless errors and it just got worse and worse, if a kid isn't ready then he isn't ready. Meslier had 1 game, no pressure whatsoever, nobody expected us to get anything and he had the luxury of knowing that.

Being our number 1 is different, experienced and highly rated keepers like Kiko have struggled, Kiko a man with experience playing for Real Madrid and being number 1 for Poch in La Liga have struggled with the pressure.

What could that pressure do to a 19 year old whose only played 31 games in his life?

It would be nice to see something of Poveda and more of Augustin though, January signings should be signed to give you the final boost like Sheffield United did and Bristol City have tried to do and WBA.

January signing should be ready to play straight away imo otherwise its pointless.

Interesting comment from Lee Johnson today when asked why he used 3 of his new boys straight away, " I felt like three new guys wouldn’t be affected by any negativity from the game before", good logic that.

And also "Sometimes you just need that, there’s no point in signing them if you don’t give them a shot, today was the right time because they’re good players"
A tough balancing act between supporting your players and making brutal changes. Sometimes changes work other times players can come through their tough period and get back to the form they are capable of.

If I was one of the 3 Bristol players who was dropped the second the loan players came in I would be furious. Not sure how good that is for team morale.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by weasel » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:02 pm

Cjay wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
Tbf to MB he may be protecting Meslier (although not sure he is doing Kiko any favours, heads gone imo).

We saw what being number 1 did to BPF, he made countless errors and it just got worse and worse, if a kid isn't ready then he isn't ready. Meslier had 1 game, no pressure whatsoever, nobody expected us to get anything and he had the luxury of knowing that.

Being our number 1 is different, experienced and highly rated keepers like Kiko have struggled, Kiko a man with experience playing for Real Madrid and being number 1 for Poch in La Liga have struggled with the pressure.

What could that pressure do to a 19 year old whose only played 31 games in his life?

It would be nice to see something of Poveda and more of Augustin though, January signings should be signed to give you the final boost like Sheffield United did and Bristol City have tried to do and WBA.

January signing should be ready to play straight away imo otherwise its pointless.

Interesting comment from Lee Johnson today when asked why he used 3 of his new boys straight away, " I felt like three new guys wouldn’t be affected by any negativity from the game before", good logic that.

And also "Sometimes you just need that, there’s no point in signing them if you don’t give them a shot, today was the right time because they’re good players"
A tough balancing act between supporting your players and making brutal changes. Sometimes changes work other times players can come through their tough period and get back to the form they are capable of.

If I was one of the 3 Bristol players who was dropped the second the loan players came in I would be furious. Not sure how good that is for team morale.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by BGwhite » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:21 pm

Cjay wrote:Tyler Roberts is due to miss a couple of games according to Adam Pope.

I know he took a thump but deary me will he ever be fit for more then 30minutes.
I've had digestive biscuits tougher than him ! Get rid in summer. If he was a car he'd be scrapped by now.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Muppet the Cat » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:30 pm

Cjay wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:00 pm
Tyler Roberts is due to miss a couple of games according to Adam Pope.

I know he took a thump but deary me will he ever be fit for more then 30minutes.
No loss there Cjay IMO and as you say he's hardly ever fit anyway.

Have we ever signed anyone who has spent such a large amount of time in the treatment room ?

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Muppet the Cat » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:31 pm

BGwhite wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:21 pm
I've had digestive biscuits tougher than him ! Get rid in summer. If he was a car he'd be scrapped by now.

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He'd defo be that biscuit that crumbles into the mug of tea before you've even pulled it back out :roll:

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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:41 pm

SaraM wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:43 pm
Ironically, this is pretty much the exact opposite of the teaching of any recognised school of psychology.

People perform to their best when they are trusted, valued and supported, not when they are undermined or feel insecure.
They also perform best when things are going well, I start to second guess myself when things don't go smoothly at work and I've made the wrong choice. Past performance affect recent performance when you start to doubt your ability.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by SaraM » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:00 pm

faaip wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:41 pm
They also perform best when things are going well, I start to second guess myself when things don't go smoothly at work and I've made the wrong choice. Past performance affect recent performance when you start to doubt your ability.
Yes, but it's how you handle it from that point on, isn't it... aren't you more likely to recover your confidence if you know you have the support of your colleagues and your boss?

Would you feel better if they encouraged you to believe you could put your mistakes behind you, or if they took you off the job and replaced you?

I'm not necessarily saying Bielsa is right, and I'd quite like to see Meslier play, I'm just trying to understand his possible methods and thinking.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Bristol City Match Thread

Post by Cjay » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:25 pm

weasel wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:02 pm
A tough balancing act between supporting your players and making brutal changes. Sometimes changes work other times players can come through their tough period and get back to the form they are capable of.

If I was one of the 3 Bristol players who was dropped the second the loan players came in I would be furious. Not sure how good that is for team morale.
I think with how MB thinks the system should protect Kiko, he said how the players are still passing to Kiko and what not. To MB for aslong as Kiko fits the system he is safe, if he makes an error like flapping at a cross then that is the system failing as that cross shouldn't have happened.

An insight into how MB thinks is summed up by him backing Kiko because the team pass to him therefore stil have confidence in Kiko but then acknowledges the mistakes have cost us points. Its bizarre but perfectly logical to MB because the system is absolutely everything and that comes before points.

Problem i have now is Brentford wasnt a goalkeeping error, it was a total loss of concentration and symptomatic of a player under immense pressure and with his mind occupied. Brentford was different to anything before it and that for me was a turning point.

Whether Meslier is good enough becomes irrelevant imo now At least in the short term, Kiko needs protecting more at this moment at least until this racism thing is resolved one way or another.

I do find MBs loyalty and lack of rotation extremely frustrating, what players think i dont know but i do worry for Kiko and Paddy now.

At what point does faith become stubbornness and counter productive doing the players more harm then good?

That is the question imo.

I suppose the flip side of that is how do our fringe players feel knowing that no matter what they do MB will pick his tried and trusted? How does Jamie Shack feel?

Arguments to both sides i suppose, Bristol City are in great form and Lee Johnson still made changes he thought would improve them and it paid off. We have been in dire form but MB wont change anything.

Obviously to many changes can backfire (Forest this week) but at the same time doing the same thing over and over again for months and allowing a double figure gap to evaporate but refusing to try anything different, is that really best?

A conundrum but as a fan itd be nice to see how our new signings shape up when given a proper chance.
Last edited by Cjay on Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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