Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Smudge3920
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by Smudge3920 »

whiteswan wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:47 am But how many on here said we shouldn't bow to Brightons demands? Many did.........
Agreed Swannie,...I was one and I still stand by it...like everyone else Ben was not proven in the prem.
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by 1964white »

whiteswan wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:47 am But how many on here said we shouldn't bow to Brightons demands? Many did.........
Majority of us Swannie

Everything has it's value

At that time Brighton's value wasn't more within our budget
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by White Riot »

1964white wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:10 am Majority of us Swannie

Everything has it's value

At that time Brighton's value wasn't more within our budget
If Brighton had agreed a reasonable price I was all in favour of buying him as he was great last season.

But we needed to bring a couple of centre-halves in and they were just dragging things out and then taking the piss with his price, so I was more than happy that we moved on very quickly. He's signed a new deal with them, thanks for your efforts Ben bye, bye and have a great career.

All the big boys will have watched him and none came in for him, that's indicative that he's not proved at PL level and cost was too much for his current level.

Brighton are below us in the table with 4 points less and have conceded 18 goals in 11 matches, so not exactly pulling up trees.
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by Peter in Blackpool »

andrewjohnsmith wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:14 am I can agree with a lot of that. The system is not at fault.
yes it is.

Bielsa teams have notoriously started like trains and faded at the end.

This is just the same here.

Season 1, we started like a train, got ourselves into an almost certain promotion......but then faded badly over the last 10 games.

Season 2, the same.....only the players got a long unscheduled rest before the last 9 games, so much so that it was like starting a new season, so we finished like a train.

Season 3. Started well after a much shorter close season, so much so that we have started to tire early. I am not concerned about losing to West Ham, but I am concerned with the lack of energy shown.

The season is like a marathan, and marathan runners will tell you that if you put too much effort into the start, you will be too knackered to finish well.

While I appreciate what Bielsa has done, without the high energy that has got us to where we are, we are only going to go in one direction from now.

Bielsa is not a stayer and cannot work with the games more skillful players as they will refuse to play the bielsa way. He has now managed more games at Leeds than any other club side in his entire career. No way will he stay next year.....so survival is so important to us, yet i fear we will not achieve it playing bielsaball
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:26 pm yes it is.

Bielsa teams have notoriously started like trains and faded at the end.

This is just the same here.

Season 1, we started like a train, got ourselves into an almost certain promotion......but then faded badly over the last 10 games.

Season 2, the same.....only the players got a long unscheduled rest before the last 9 games, so much so that it was like starting a new season, so we finished like a train.

Season 3. Started well after a much shorter close season, so much so that we have started to tire early. I am not concerned about losing to West Ham, but I am concerned with the lack of energy shown.

The season is like a marathan, and marathan runners will tell you that if you put too much effort into the start, you will be too knackered to finish well.

While I appreciate what Bielsa has done, without the high energy that has got us to where we are, we are only going to go in one direction from now.

Bielsa is not a stayer and cannot work with the games more skillful players as they will refuse to play the bielsa way. He has now managed more games at Leeds than any other club side in his entire career. No way will he stay next year.....so survival is so important to us, yet i fear we will not achieve it playing bielsaball
So the fact we have lost to better sides in most of our games isn't down to:

1. Man for man they had better players?
2. We have played the same back four only twice this season with one of our main signings carrying an injury since game 1?.
3. Two of our new signings are just finding their feet in this side. Rodrigo has played 90 minutes Twice, and Raphinha has started just three games.? It usually takes six games for players to tune into Bielsa's methods
4. Our midfield down two players including our Hernandez? .
5. Not once this season have we been able to have our best 18 in the match day squad never mind on the pitch?
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by Peter in Blackpool »

if you compare man for man, we are probably one of the worst teams in the league, and the only reason we are not bottom 3 is because of our high intensity high press type of football. but we cannot sustain that all season, against the hammers our energy levels dropped considerably which is why we were well beaten.

No good pointing out injuries, west ham had players out too, you need a squad of players that we do not have.

Do you really think players of the Mo Saleh class will allow themselves to be bullied into increased fitness and accept being dropped for kicking a water bottle?

Our players are not good enough and better players will not tolerate the Bielsa way....so where do we go from here?

Give Bielsa next 2 games, if we play badly, its time to say thank you, but goodbye MB
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm if you compare man for man, we are probably one of the worst teams in the league, and the only reason we are not bottom 3 is because of our high intensity high press type of football. but we cannot sustain that all season, against the hammers our energy levels dropped considerably which is why we were well beaten.

No good pointing out injuries, west ham had players out too, you need a squad of players that we do not have.

Do you really think players of the Mo Saleh class will allow themselves to be bullied into increased fitness and accept being dropped for kicking a water bottle?

Our players are not good enough and better players will not tolerate the Bielsa way....so where do we go from here?

Give Bielsa next 2 games, if we play badly, its time to say thank you, but goodbye MB
:duno: are you a spy?...a disruptor?... if not what did you expect the first season back?... you cannot disregard injuries, they effect your selections.. :shhh:
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm if you compare man for man, we are probably one of the worst teams in the league, and the only reason we are not bottom 3 is because of our high intensity high press type of football. but we cannot sustain that all season, against the hammers our energy levels dropped considerably which is why we were well beaten.

No good pointing out injuries, west ham had players out too, you need a squad of players that we do not have.

Do you really think players of the Mo Saleh class will allow themselves to be bullied into increased fitness and accept being dropped for kicking a water bottle?

Our players are not good enough and better players will not tolerate the Bielsa way....so where do we go from here?

Give Bielsa next 2 games, if we play badly, its time to say thank you, but goodbye MB
So you accept we havent a strong enough squad, then point out we have our wins due to the manager,then suggest Leeds SACK the manager who has got us the points because you believe we are burnt out?

I give up :lol:
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote:
Our players are not good enough and better players will not tolerate the Bielsa way....so where do we go from here?
From your analysis I think that the only way out is to find a very high bridge and get some barbed wire instead of rope and fasten it to a girder and then tie it around our necks and jump off... and on the way down slit our wrists cuz there's no hope.

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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm if you compare man for man, we are probably one of the worst teams in the league, and the only reason we are not bottom 3 is because of our high intensity high press type of football. but we cannot sustain that all season, against the hammers our energy levels dropped considerably which is why we were well beaten.

No good pointing out injuries, west ham had players out too, you need a squad of players that we do not have.

Do you really think players of the Mo Saleh class will allow themselves to be bullied into increased fitness and accept being dropped for kicking a water bottle?

Our players are not good enough and better players will not tolerate the Bielsa way....so where do we go from here?

Give Bielsa next 2 games, if we play badly, its time to say thank you, but goodbye MB
Who do you think we would get to do a better job of our, in your opinion, inept squad?
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Give Bielsa next 2 games, if we play badly, its time to say thank you, but goodbye MB
What :shock:

Are you kidding Peter?
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Season 1, you're right Peter that fatigue may have played some part in our drop off. But I also think there were other factors at play. We had injuries to our strikers Roofe and Bamford, as well as Izzy Brown. For me the biggest issue was the loss of confidence. The players had not been in that position, at the top for a sustained period, before and the pressure got to them. I still think they bottled it and no better evidence of that than the semi against Derby.

Season 2, you might be right, but as I remember we were on a five match wining streak before lockdown, please correct me if I'm wrong. They also started back with a defeat to Cardiff where we didn't play that great tbh. After that, yes, we put a great run together, but I do believe the previous season's run in had prepared Bielsa and the players mentally for this. We were also aided and abetted by the other teams competing for promotion, Brentford, Fulham, WBA, Forest, who all crumbled and dropped points as we stayed strong.

I kind of agree with you that as well as this high energy style we need to be a bit cannier in certain matches. The key to our success for me is staying confident, retaining the ball well, passing well, taking our chances and especially defending well. We also need to be more physical and stronger in the tackle and in the air.

I believe that the race is not yet run, it's way too early for that, we still have a great chance of staying up and I actually expect we'll finish mid-table. Bielsa is more than capable of working with skillful, big name players, he's managed Argentina and Chile and as a true connoisseur of the game he will have forgotten more than I'll ever know about skillful players. No coincidence that we've recruited four better quality players for good money when we've gone up to the Prem.

After achieving what nobody else could do during 16 years of pain, in just two seasons, I believe Leeds should and will stand by him for the rest of this season, he's earned that. Yes, he's got his faults and weaknesses, as have we all, and should not be above criticism. But I strongly believe that Bielsa did an amazing job to get us here and is the only coach in the world that can keep us up.
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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white riot, I look for reasons why all previous Bielsa teams have failed at the death. Why they start well but fail to achieve and then he is off.

Its been an absolute pleasure watching Leeds this last 2 and a half seasons and the credit for that goes to Bielsa. But I believe he has taken us as far as he can, his type of football does not work in the strongest league in the world.

Its true, he has managed national teams with top players, but its not the same is it? getting the players for a few days once every couple of months. you cannot get a team to play bielsball unless you have them for a good while.

I fully accept that without him we would still be a mid table team in the championship and if he ever takes on another championship team i would be rushing down to the bookies with a fistful of cash. But he has never managed a top club team to success. To keep our momentum going we now need a different kind of manager who can build a squad and rest players who drop out of form and does not drop players cos he falls out with them.

A good manager would yell at pablo and say something like....so you think you are too good to be substituted.....right, I disagree, but I will play you tonight, now go out there and prove me wrong or shut the **** up
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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Peter in Blackpool wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:17 pm white riot, I look for reasons why all previous Bielsa teams have failed at the death. Why they start well but fail to achieve and then he is off.

Its been an absolute pleasure watching Leeds this last 2 and a half seasons and the credit for that goes to Bielsa. But I believe he has taken us as far as he can, his type of football does not work in the strongest league in the world.

Its true, he has managed national teams with top players, but its not the same is it? getting the players for a few days once every couple of months. you cannot get a team to play bielsball unless you have them for a good while.

I fully accept that without him we would still be a mid table team in the championship and if he ever takes on another championship team i would be rushing down to the bookies with a fistful of cash. But he has never managed a top club team to success. To keep our momentum going we now need a different kind of manager who can build a squad and rest players who drop out of form and does not drop players cos he falls out with them.

A good manager would yell at pablo and say something like....so you think you are too good to be substituted.....right, I disagree, but I will play you tonight, now go out there and prove me wrong or shut the **** up
You make some valid points Peter

I guess only time will tell if Bielsa can keep us up.

Yes, I disagree with the way Pablo has been treated, he's the best player at the club for me and has been for a number of seasons.

My team talk tonight would be "Listen lads you let yourselves, me and the supporters down in the last two matches, so get out there tonight and show these cnuts what we're made of, get stuck in and put the fear of God into them, those three points are ours, so go and fooking get them".
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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I don't think there's any evidence we ran out of steam first season under MB, we basically played Derby off the park for two games bar 20 minutes and we finished stronger

I think the issue is MB will let players drag themselves out of slumps rather than change personnel....I don't think we'll see changes for the next game even if we're well beaten tonight
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by onemoreslogan »

Yeah, the "Bielsa sides run out of steam down the stretch" myth was largely exploded his first two seasons at Leeds as far as I'm concerned. Whenever anyone comes out with that line it simply tells me they haven't been paying attention.

I think our poor form of late owes more to an unsettled back line due to injuries than anything else. Beyond that, I'm tempted to argue they haven't been playing often enough and might have trouble maintaining form with so much time between matches in the PL. Looking forward to seeing how they respond over the next run of games which are coming at a more Championship-like frequency, to see if there is anything to this idea.

The Pablo business is a head-scratcher and unfortunately we can only speculate as to why he's been under-employed. I hope we get the whole story at some point because I've been kind of obsessing over it.
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

Post by Lumiukko »

onemoreslogan wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:57 pm
I think our poor form of late owes more to an unsettled back line due to injuries than anything else. Beyond that, I'm tempted to argue they haven't been playing often enough and might have trouble maintaining form with so much time between matches in the PL. Looking forward to seeing how they respond over the next run of games which are coming at a more Championship-like frequency, to see if there is anything to this idea.
This is a good point. Perhaps the frequent matches over the next month will actually play into our hands with the fitness of our team. Certainly showed we were fittest tonight (against a Covid ravaged Newcastle admittedly).
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Re: Leeds United v West Ham Utd - Match Thread

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1964white wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:06 pm What :shock:

Are you kidding Peter?
I await his comeback with bated breath.
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