Labour smashed by the Tories in Hartlepool...

[1964white]

Hartlepool has a Conservative MP for the first time since the constituency's creation, after Jill Mortimer won the by-election

Ms Mortimer beat her closest rival, Labour's Paul Williams by nearly 7,000 votes.

The result is a blow for Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer in his first election test since taking over the party.

But the Conservatives will hope it is a sign of building on its 2019 election win in traditional Labour seatshere were 16 candidates standing in the by-election, but Conservative Ms Mortimer won with 15,529, while Labour's Mr Williams received 8,589.

She hailed it as a "truly historic" result, saying she was proud to be the first Conservative MP for 57 years.

She said: "Not only that, I am the first woman ever to be elected as MP for this town.

"Labour have taken people in Hartlepool for granted for too long.

"I heard this time and time again on the doorstep and people have had enough and now, through this result, the people have spoken and have made it clear it is time for change."

The Hartlepool constituency was formed in 1974 and had returned a Labour MP in every vote since - until Thursday's poll.

[1964white]

Similar Tories gains in the rest of the UK too.

[Smudge3920]

Similar Tories gains in the rest of the UK too.

Labour still not sorting itself out then Leon... politicly in a mess here in the colonies also, Liberal Federal government, Tory provincial government ... you can guess how much gets done

[Durly]

Labour are absolutely f***ed and will be for years to come, in my opinion. They've lost their strongholds in Scotland to the SNP and Brexit (although not Brexit alone) has seen a huge shift away from Labour in areas of the North that would never possibly have considered voting for the Tories even 10 years ago. As a Labour (and sometimes Lib Dem) voter of many years, this gives me no pleasure but I don't see a way back for Labour for a very long time........no matter who is at the helm.

[Byebyegeegee]

Absolute madness putting arch-remainer Williams up as a candidate in one of the most overwhelmingly Brexit seats in the Country. What were Labour thinking? It’s as if they were goading the people of Hartlepool or had actually given up even trying to keep that seat.

Without any serious opposition we are in danger of becoming a one party state and at the moment Labour are no serious opposition. I would say Starmer needs to go, he really is pretty pathetic. But then you look at the possible alternatives and you see no one with any more charisma or gravitas or indeed anyone who would in any way appeal to the former “red wall” electorate.

Gawd ‘elp us!

[The Subhuman]

Labour are absolutely f***ed and will be for years to come, in my opinion. They've lost their strongholds in Scotland to the SNP and Brexit (although not Brexit alone) has seen a huge shift away from Labour in areas of the North that would never possibly have considered voting for the Tories even 10 years ago. As a Labour (and sometimes Lib Dem) voter of many years, this gives me no pleasure but I don't see a way back for Labour for a very long time........no matter who is at the helm.

They're done unfortunately, they'll go down in history as a 50 yr blip. First in 1923 last true labour Government ended in 79 ..Blair had to basically become Tory to win an election. Brown I guess but he got in by default as Callahan did even if he was successful as a PM

Baldwin
Atlee
Wilson

True labour leaders to win an election over 100 yrs

[mothbanquet]

The danger of politics is thinking that it is a static thing. The biggest danger is forgetting that political parties in a democracy are in fact reflections of their people, not directors of their people. They cannot hope to stand as an isolated island of minority opinion in a public sea that is always changing, not forever at least. As such, Labour and Conservatives are markedly different to what they were 20 years ago, let alone 50 years ago when you examine them in detail.

It's also worth remembering that in the 'aftermath' of Covid, a lot of people will be seeking stability and consolidation for the country over the minutiae of policy.

[Durly]

Absolute madness putting arch-remainer Williams up as a candidate in one of the most overwhelmingly Brexit seats in the Country. What were Labour thinking? It’s as if they were goading the people of Hartlepool or had actually given up even trying to keep that seat.

Without any serious opposition we are in danger of becoming a one party state and at the moment Labour are no serious opposition. I would say Starmer needs to go, he really is pretty pathetic. But then you look at the possible alternatives and you see no one with any more charisma or gravitas or indeed anyone who would in any way appeal to the former “red wall” electorate.

Gawd ‘elp us!

I think it's about much, much more than the leadership mate.

[Durly]

They're done unfortunately, they'll go down in history as a 50 yr blip. First in 1923 last true labour Government ended in 79 ..Blair had to basically become Tory to win an election. Brown I guess but he got in by default as Callahan did even if he was successful as a PM

Baldwin
Atlee
Wilson

True labour leaders to win an election over 100 yrs

True mate. I wouldn't say that Blair "became Tory" but there was obviously a large amount of compromise all round in order for them to seize power. I used to know and have met someone who worked under Blair (she is the ex-partner of a mate of mine) and later went on to become a Labour MP. She is considered a "Blairite" but, believe me, hates the Tories.

You're correct though, Labour in its traditional form won't ever see power in this country again.

[1964white]

Labour are absolutely f***ed and will be for years to come, in my opinion. They've lost their strongholds in Scotland to the SNP and Brexit (although not Brexit alone) has seen a huge shift away from Labour in areas of the North that would never possibly have considered voting for the Tories even 10 years ago. As a Labour (and sometimes Lib Dem) voter of many years, this gives me no pleasure but I don't see a way back for Labour for a very long time........no matter who is at the helm.

I know they have lost strongholds in northern areas but I was really surprised with the loss of Hartlepool seat hence my topic on the matter.

Brexit is probably the main reason for the substantial tory gains.

Personally I'm glad to be out of Europe being dictated by Brussels, I doubt half the nation would have had their first vaccine jab let alone 20 million who've already had the second vaccination if we were still in the EU.

[1964white]

The danger of politics is thinking that it is a static thing. The biggest danger is forgetting that political parties in a democracy are in fact reflections of their people, not directors of their people. They cannot hope to stand as an isolated island of minority opinion in a public sea that is always changing, not forever at least. As such, Labour and Conservatives are markedly different to what they were 20 years ago, let alone 50 years ago when you examine them in detail.

It's also worth remembering that in the 'aftermath' of Covid, a lot of people will be seeking stability and consolidation for the country over the minutiae of policy

Extremely good point Moth

[Leeds1000]

Have to agree with the consensus on Brexit element. The Brexit party votes were up for grabs, so why did they put another arch remainer candidate up? Testing the water maybe? And it has to be said when BLM were tearing down statues up and down the country Starmer did himself no favours by taking the knee.

There is always room for Boris to blow himself up with something idiotic, but other than that, it would seem Labour are fast becoming a busted flush. With the environment high on the agenda around the world it may well be the Green party start to really challenge the Labour party going forward... who knows?

It looks like the gammons are here to stay. Maybe Labour should start listening for a change.

[Durly]

I know they have lost strongholds in northern areas but I was really surprised with the loss of Hartlepool seat hence my topic on the matter.

Brexit is probably the main reason for the substantial tory gains.

Personally I'm glad to be out of Europe being dictated by Brussels, I doubt half the nation would have had their first vaccine jab let alone 20 million who've already had the second vaccination if we were still in the EU.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

[1964white]

We'll have to disagree on that one.

I know mate we all share vastly different opinions on that subject.

[1964white]

Have to agree with the consensus on Brexit element. The Brexit party votes were up for grabs, so why did they put another arch remainer candidate up? Testing the water maybe? And it has to be said when BLM were tearing down statues up and down the country Starmer did himself no favours by taking the knee.

There is always room for Boris to blow himself up with something idiotic, but other than that, it would seem Labour are fast becoming a busted flush. With the environment high on the agenda around the world it may well be the Green party start to really challenge the Labour party going forward... who knows?

It looks like the gammons are here to stay. Maybe Labour should start listening for a change.

Maybe all the parties should listen mate

[Leeds1000]

Maybe all the parties should listen mate

I was referring to the Brexit vote 64. Labour's ideological approach to overturning the referendum result really pist a lot of people off. Labour mp's like Caroline Flint were pleading with the party to vote for the TM deal and show compromise so they could wipe the slate clean and move on. If it failed, they would have the Tories to blame, it was their negotiated deal after all, unfortunately not pure enough for the Members they were whipped up into a frenzy by Starmer, Blair to go for the second vote.

Asking 18m people to vote again because you felt it was the wrong decision and based on lies is political suicide as far as i am concerned. And we still ended up with the TM deal 2.0.

I think Labour has spread its values to far and wide for people really to get a grasp of what it is they really stand for these days. The Unions don't have the gravity last they used to.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

They're done unfortunately, they'll go down in history as a 50 yr blip. First in 1923 last true labour Government ended in 79 ..Blair had to basically become Tory to win an election. Brown I guess but he got in by default as Callahan did even if he was successful as a PM

Baldwin
Atlee
Wilson

True labour leaders to win an election over 100 yrs

Labour and Blair/Brown basically lied to get into power in 1997 through pretending that they were fiscally responsible, and had learnt the lessons from past Labour mistakes whilst in power. To do this they adopted the Tory spending plans - a kind of trojan horse to get into power.

For their first term they were actually fiscally responsible - reducing the national debt ( rather than just the deficit ) for one of the very few times in the history of the UK national debt since it started under William 111. Then after being re elected in 2001 they went completely mad and reverted to type - taking a national debt from 350 billion when they came into power in 1997 - which had taken 303 years and two world wars to reach that level - up to just over 1 trillion GBP when they were thrown out in 2010. So tripling a national debt which had built up in just over 300 years in just 9 years !! Massive overspending was already happening well before the financial crisis kicked in, which they helped to bring about anyway through lax regulation of the banking sector.

To give an idea of the mess the British state is now in, all of the 23 billion GBP or so in interest payments on the national debt has to be borrowed through issuing more government gilts. As the maturity on this debt is now quite short, if interest rates were to rise suddenly, then the state might find itself suddenly having to pay more than 100 billion a year in interest payments alone - all of which will have to be borrowed just as long as it is running a deficit...Imagine having huge credit card debt and then keeping yourself afloat through borrowing with other loans in order to meet the minimum payments and the interest charges...

Anybody who doesn't want to see the country totally bankrupt would never ever contemplate the idea of Labour getting back into power.

[White Riot]

Labour and Blair/Brown basically lied to get into power in 1997 through pretending that they were fiscally responsible, and had learnt the lessons from past Labour mistakes whilst in power. To do this they adopted the Tory spending plans - a kind of trojan horse to get into power.

For their first term they were actually fiscally responsible - reducing the national debt ( rather than just the deficit ) for one of the very few times in the history of the UK national debt since it started under William 111. Then after being re elected in 2001 they went completely mad and reverted to type - taking a national debt from 350 billion when they came into power in 1997 - which had taken 303 years and two world wars to reach that level - up to just over 1 trillion GBP when they were thrown out in 2010. So tripling a national debt which had built up in just over 300 years in just 9 years !! Massive overspending was already happening well before the financial crisis kicked in, which they helped to bring about anyway through lax regulation of the banking sector.

To give an idea of the mess the British state is now in, all of the 23 billion GBP or so in interest payments on the national debt has to be borrowed through issuing more government gilts. As the maturity on this debt is now quite short, if interest rates were to rise suddenly, then the state might find itself suddenly having to pay more than 100 billion a year in interest payments alone - all of which will have to be borrowed just as long as it is running a deficit...Imagine having huge credit card debt and then keeping yourself afloat through borrowing with other loans in order to meet the minimum payments and the interest charges...

Anybody who doesn't want to see the country totally bankrupt would never ever contemplate the idea of Labour getting back into power.

Fair points Chapel, but let's not forget that all Tories must hang

[Smudge3920]

Lets not forget the PFI debacle also which is why the NHS is in such a mess...

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Labour and Blair/Brown basically lied to get into power in 1997 through pretending that they were fiscally responsible, and had learnt the lessons from past Labour mistakes whilst in power. To do this they adopted the Tory spending plans - a kind of trojan horse to get into power.

For their first term they were actually fiscally responsible - reducing the national debt ( rather than just the deficit ) for one of the very few times in the history of the UK national debt since it started under William 111. Then after being re elected in 2001 they went completely mad and reverted to type - taking a national debt from 350 billion when they came into power in 1997 - which had taken 303 years and two world wars to reach that level - up to just over 1 trillion GBP when they were thrown out in 2010. So tripling a national debt which had built up in just over 300 years in just 9 years !! Massive overspending was already happening well before the financial crisis kicked in, which they helped to bring about anyway through lax regulation of the banking sector.

To give an idea of the mess the British state is now in, all of the 23 billion GBP or so in interest payments on the national debt has to be borrowed through issuing more government gilts. As the maturity on this debt is now quite short, if interest rates were to rise suddenly, then the state might find itself suddenly having to pay more than 100 billion a year in interest payments alone - all of which will have to be borrowed just as long as it is running a deficit...Imagine having huge credit card debt and then keeping yourself afloat through borrowing with other loans in order to meet the minimum payments and the interest charges...

Anybody who doesn't want to see the country totally bankrupt would never ever contemplate the idea of Labour getting back into power.

Oh, and the 14.5 billion GBP spent on ' foreign aid ' last year was of course financed through....borrowing. This has to be the case as long as the government is running a deficit. Presumably a UK government would approve UK citizens borrowing on credit cards in order to donate to charities, even if those people already had huge credit card debts, and even if a large proportion of the donation ends up in the coffers of the agencies that do the fund raising ?

It's not even as though the borrowed money is being put to good use - to quote from an article on UK foreign aid ;

"The example of Africa, home to the largest proportion of people living in extreme poverty in the world, should give us pause. Billions, even trillions, of pounds worth of aid has been channelled into the continent from Western nations over the past four decades. Some of it has, of course, been put to good use in education and disease prevention. But a much higher proportion has been used ineffectively, in some cases even counterproductively, towards the ultimate goal of lifting people out of poverty for good.

Our current aid strategy encourages dependence and perverse economic incentives. In Africa alone, more than a dozen governments derive more than half their revenue from foreign aid. Much of the aid given to countries like Nigeria – the second largest recipient of UK aid after Pakistan – makes the rich richer, the poor poorer and helps entrench corrupt regimes, while failing to improve the living conditions of millions below the poverty line."

Basically states are often totally inept at managing money, and politicians love virtue signalling vanity projects as they will no longer be in power when the real consequences of their financial illiteracy are felt. when An interesting book to read is Dominic Frisby's Life After The State. To quote from an introduction to the book ;

" For Frisby, the problem is the State. In every instance where government gets involved in people's lives with a desire to do good, it can always be relied on to make the situation much, much worse. Yet despite this reality, we all seem to imagine that a world without the state would be a wild and terrifying place. With wit and devastating clarity of argument, Frisby shows that human nature proves the opposite to be true. Combining the paradigm-busting wisdom of Nassim Nicholas Taleb's The Black Swan with the readable charm of Freakonomics, Life After the State is a book that will change the way you think about money, education, healthcare and social justice for ever."