Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

[huishhammer]

You'll be fine.

A 50/50 game yesterday that could have gone either way. And you've got injuries.

Lots more teams worse than you in the league.

[Byebyegeegee]

Glad you enjoyed yourself Byebye despite the result.

Only Leeds could blow that type of game when clearly on top at half-time

Yes 64 we were a different team in the 2nd half, especially, as I’ve said, after Raphinha went off.

Wouldn’t mind swapping Rodrigo with Antonio either.

[1964white]

Yes 64 we were a different team in the 2nd half, especially, as I’ve said, after Raphinha went off.

Wouldn’t mind swapping Rodrigo with Antonio either.

We're becoming a three man team, lose Raphinha to a long term injury & god knows what we do to counteract his absence, he's a cut above the rest.

Oh to have a strong, powerful, bullying striker who scores goals for fun, had his problems with injuries though over the last few seasons

[1964white]

You'll be fine.

A 50/50 game yesterday that could have gone either way. And you've got injuries.

Lots more teams worse than you in the league.

We don't seem to have much luck with injuries or officials.

Thanks Huish

[Cjay]

Imo the simple facts is the club got complacent.

They recruited minimally and poorly with off the ball skills at the front of their mind and neglected the tactical and technical needs of the team.

Those stats Leon posted are symptomatic of a fading limited team who perhaps are running out of steam, tired minds and tired bodies get turned over and concede a lot more than fresh ones.

It also highlights the neglect of our midfield, we have 2 30 year olds in it and one of them isnt a proper midfielder really lets be honest, he has done a great job as a utility man but you dont get creativity from Dallas you get energy and when that is gone he offers very little.

Imo maybe what we are seeing is evidence that MB has never been a club manager for a long time ? This is ny a distance his longest spell at one club.

He has never had to rejuvenate a squad, he has never had to slowly evolve a squad.

He has his core group and he will use them for aslong as he can, after all why wouldn't he? They have served him well for years?

Well performances levels can drop over time, energy levels drop over time, many of our squad are pushing 30 with almost no top flight experience, they are where they are because they have played out of their skin for years in a style that suits them because it doesnt necessarily require them to be technically better than their opponents just much fitter.

It effectively requires them to be at 100% of their ability and fitness 100% of the time, 100% sharp and on it.

And they have been for MB hence why he trusts them.

But that was never going to last indefinitely and that perhaps is where MB's analytical and logical mind has a blind spot?

Where his lack of experience in this situation shows?

[BGwhite]

Imo the simple facts is the club got complacent.

They recruited minimally and poorly with off the ball skills at the front of their mind and neglected the tactical and technical needs of the team.

Those stats Leon posted are symptomatic of a fading limited team who perhaps are running out of steam, tired minds and tired bodies get turned over and concede a lot more than fresh ones.

It also highlights the neglect of our midfield, we have 2 30 year olds in it and one of them isnt a proper midfielder really lets be honest, he has done a great job as a utility man but you dont get creativity from Dallas you get energy and when that is gone he offers very little.

Imo maybe what we are seeing is evidence that MB has never been a club manager for a long time ? This is ny a distance his longest spell at one club.

He has never had to rejuvenate a squad, he has never had to slowly evolve a squad.

He has his core group and he will use them for aslong as he can, after all why wouldn't he? They have served him well for years?

Well performances levels can drop over time, energy levels drop over time, many of our squad are pushing 30 with almost no top flight experience, they are where they are because they have played out of their skin for years in a style that suits them because it doesnt necessarily require them to be technically better than their opponents just much fitter.

It effectively requires them to be at 100% of their ability and fitness 100% of the time, 100% sharp and on it.

And they have been for MB hence why he trusts them.

But that was never going to last indefinitely and that perhaps is where MB's analytical and logical mind has a blind spot?

Where his lack of experience in this situation shows?

Great post . It was evident to me watching the game that Leeds went off the boil about 10 mins or so before half-time although a few stoppages didn't help. West Ham slowed it down to suit them and Leeds never really got back up to where they were after that. They looked visibly shattered and playing against a big West Ham outfit only added to their deficiencies but we rarely do well against big imposing teams anyway. The team needs refreshing and a left back who is yet to convince me isn't what this team needs. We and the club have known for many months that a creative midfielder was imperative but no one arrived and we are paying the price now. Stop the wingers and you stop Leeds it's as simple as that. The chopping and changing hasn't helped at the back but Cresswell showed yesterday that our 23's have what it takes and Bielsa needs to utilise them . They are ready to be tested in the PL so Bielsa needs to have balls and give them the opportunity because right now bar a couple of our regulars we are going backwards and a lot of it is down to bad management.

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[Irish Ian]

Imo the simple facts is the club got complacent.

They recruited minimally and poorly with off the ball skills at the front of their mind and neglected the tactical and technical needs of the team.

Those stats Leon posted are symptomatic of a fading limited team who perhaps are running out of steam, tired minds and tired bodies get turned over and concede a lot more than fresh ones.

It also highlights the neglect of our midfield, we have 2 30 year olds in it and one of them isnt a proper midfielder really lets be honest, he has done a great job as a utility man but you dont get creativity from Dallas you get energy and when that is gone he offers very little.

Imo maybe what we are seeing is evidence that MB has never been a club manager for a long time ? This is ny a distance his longest spell at one club.

He has never had to rejuvenate a squad, he has never had to slowly evolve a squad.

He has his core group and he will use them for aslong as he can, after all why wouldn't he? They have served him well for years?

Well performances levels can drop over time, energy levels drop over time, many of our squad are pushing 30 with almost no top flight experience, they are where they are because they have played out of their skin for years in a style that suits them because it doesnt necessarily require them to be technically better than their opponents just much fitter.

It effectively requires them to be at 100% of their ability and fitness 100% of the time, 100% sharp and on it.

And they have been for MB hence why he trusts them.

But that was never going to last indefinitely and that perhaps is where MB's analytical and logical mind has a blind spot?

Where his lack of experience in this situation shows?

I do agree about the energy levels, some of our players at that point when recovery is longer and peaks are harder to achieve.

Interestingly Bielsa did say that he changed the pre-season training routines as he was concerned some of the players would be bored by the repetition of what had went before in previous pre-seasons and not engage as much.. Whatever happened they didnt look ready at all. ..

While it is true that Bielsa hasn't had the experience rebuilding his team perhaps we will be in with a pleasant surprise when our starting 11 features a few more of the U23s.

Just because the experience isn't there doesn't mean the ability is missing too.

Also, on the U23s who have come through under Bielsa, how many can be viewed as a failure?

Meslier and Struijk can now be viewed as trustworthy, Clarke we cashed in on and Shackleton can be seen as a useful player.
Too early to say about Cresswell but he has been decent so far. There has been a mass clearout of those who were unable to step up to PL level.

There is no doubt that Gelhardt will play at a high level and what about Greenwood, Drameh, Bate, Miller, Dean they all look decent for their age. Then there is the likes of Davis, Poveda and Bogusz out on loan who are developing. We may shout at times about his reluctance to blood youngsters but when he has inserted them carefully into the team it has worked.

Maybe the answers to the conundrum is on the way

[UptonGone]

Greetings

On yesterday’s game, it could’ve gone either way on chances created, in the end we had a bit more in the tank in the second half and just a little more quality in the final third. But it was a cracking end to end, toe to toe encounter.

On Bielsa, I’ve been a massive fan for a long time, he’s one of footballs few true mavericks and I’d have loved him to manage our lot - legend has it when interviewed by us and asked what he’d change his answer was simple - everything!

When he hasn’t fallen out with management - often early on like Lille, Lazio etc - he has often managed to work miracles with what he has inherited, Bilbao, Marseille, earlier on with Newell’s and Velez Sarsfield and the Chile national side.

The down side of being somewhat a miracle worker is that maybe - when Bielsa provides that miracle, more often than not on very limited resources, clubs continue to expect further miracles from him without perhaps providing the refreshing and rotation of playing staff his style of football inevitably requires - his teams have a habit of running out of steam, I recall watching Leeds in his first season in the championship and that’s very much what appeared to happen then?

Yesterday it looked to me that you tired visibly in the second half and maybe need new legs, even at this early stage of the season, new blood in from the U23’s maybe or funds supplied for a bit more quality in the January window. Whatever, you’ve got the right man for the job, just some investment wouldn’t go amiss.

Good luck for the rest of the season.

[Chilli D]

Greetings

On yesterday’s game, it could’ve gone either way on chances created, in the end we had a bit more in the tank in the second half and just a little more quality in the final third. But it was a cracking end to end, toe to toe encounter.

On Bielsa, I’ve been a massive fan for a long time, he’s one of footballs few true mavericks and I’d have loved him to manage our lot - legend has it when interviewed by us and asked what he’d change his answer was simple - everything!

When he hasn’t fallen out with management - often early on like Lille, Lazio etc - he has often managed to work miracles with what he has inherited, Bilbao, Marseille, earlier on with Newell’s and Velez Sarsfield and the Chile national side.

The down side of being somewhat a miracle worker is that maybe - when Bielsa provides that miracle, more often than not on very limited resources, clubs continue to expect further miracles from him without perhaps providing the refreshing and rotation of playing staff his style of football inevitably requires - his teams have a habit of running out of steam, I recall watching Leeds in his first season in the championship and that’s very much what appeared to happen then?

Yesterday it looked to me that you tired visibly in the second half and maybe need new legs, even at this early stage of the season, new blood in from the U23’s maybe or funds supplied for a bit more quality in the January window. Whatever, you’ve got the right man for the job, just some investment wouldn’t go amiss.

Good luck for the rest of the season.

Good post.

[1964white]

Greetings

On yesterday’s game, it could’ve gone either way on chances created, in the end we had a bit more in the tank in the second half and just a little more quality in the final third. But it was a cracking end to end, toe to toe encounter.

On Bielsa, I’ve been a massive fan for a long time, he’s one of footballs few true mavericks and I’d have loved him to manage our lot - legend has it when interviewed by us and asked what he’d change his answer was simple - everything!

When he hasn’t fallen out with management - often early on like Lille, Lazio etc - he has often managed to work miracles with what he has inherited, Bilbao, Marseille, earlier on with Newell’s and Velez Sarsfield and the Chile national side.

The down side of being somewhat a miracle worker is that maybe - when Bielsa provides that miracle, more often than not on very limited resources, clubs continue to expect further miracles from him without perhaps providing the refreshing and rotation of playing staff his style of football inevitably requires - his teams have a habit of running out of steam, I recall watching Leeds in his first season in the championship and that’s very much what appeared to happen then?

Yesterday it looked to me that you tired visibly in the second half and maybe need new legs, even at this early stage of the season, new blood in from the U23’s maybe or funds supplied for a bit more quality in the January window. Whatever, I think you’ve got the right man for the job, just some investment wouldn’t go amiss.

Good luck for the rest of the season.

Thank you Upton

We have a lad scoring for fun in our U23's set-up, Joe Gelhardt is his name, he doesn't need assists, he creates goals out of nothing. Unfortunately, the subs Bielsa uses are not natural goalscorers & rarely change a game in our favour. Yesterday MB subbed Raphinha a winger & our best player by a wide margin for a struggling midfielder out on the wing. A more realistic option was to replace Raphinha for another promising kid Summerville who is an out & out pacey winger, the young lad did come on eventually in the 91st minute, what was the point of that?

For all my love of Marcelo the man & what he has achieved at Leeds, we all know the pecking order is more important to him than making a progressive change.

[Carrick Dave]

I didn't see the game and wanted to read though the aftermath on here and elsewhere to get a feel for how the game went and how worried everyone is.

The consensus seems to be that:

• We competed with a strong outfit but faded and ultimately failed to get over the line.
  The main fault lies with Bielsa's stubbornness, favouritism and lack of flexibility and general management skills.
  Defensive frailties and issues in midfield need to be addressed immediately and only he can do that.
  If nothing changes, the knives will be getting sharpened on the terraces and in the boardroom.

There are a couple of things I don't want to see.

One is Bielsa offering his resignation and the board accepting it. if we think we're f****d now, we'd be left completely up the proverbial. Who'd come in? Talk about a poison chalice... following Marcelo Bielsa, inheriting a limited team moulded by him for years, working for a board who kicked out one of the true greats 6 games into the season after years of over-achievement. Recipe for relegation for any manager.

The other is Bielsa offering his resignation and the board not accepting it. This would tie the hands of both parties unnecessarily and create an artificial environment where both sides become constrained and less able to do what might become necessary down the line, be that Bielsa walking or the board letting him go between now and the summer.

The overall reaction of the fanbase here and elsewhere worries me most. Yes Bielsa can be criticised where necessary, but a he's closer to the coalface and has more emotional and reputational investment in the club's success than anyone. A groundswell of hostility towards the manager and/or team will lead directly to lowered morale and less chance of turning things around. If that happens, I think Bielsa will go very quickly.

So if the problem is his insistence on playing a real dud in Roberts, inabilty to address the midfield problems, reluctance to introduce U23s en masse right away, whose job is it to tell him to change his ways? Who has the right credentials? Radz? The fans?

Having stuck IBWT at the end of my posts for the last 3 years when the going was good, I personally think I just need to trust him the first time that things don't look so rosy. I know the stats aren't great but we're not relegated yet. The players and Marcelo will be hurting like hell, just like we are. Maybe we should back them instead of getting on their backs. By Christmas things may be looking a lot better and for me it's too early to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If I'm a happy clappy, overly-optimistic or just a fool that's fine, and if I'm proved wrong down the line I'll suck it up, but I'm not sure anyone else is or would be better placed to turn the current situation round with the current squad than Marcelo Bielsa.

IBWT.

[Johnboy1965]

I don't think anyone on here is either calling for MB to resign or get sacked!
We are though rightly concerned with the fact that we are winless in 6 games with 3 defeats and in the bottom 3.
We have 4 very winnable games coming up so let's see where we are by the end of October.
If we are still in the bottom 3 then unfortunately board may act whether we like it or not.

[SG90]

The fact that we're afraid of moving on from Cooper, Ayling, Dallas, Klich, Roberts, Harrison etc is embarrassing. We're a PL club now and need to start acting like one. Look at Brighton, I think only Dunk is still there from their promotion.

[WhiteRose]

We’re well capable of picking up 6 points in our next games before the int break and then should have some players back for another 2 winnable games which follow. Not winning any of those dosnt bare thinking about at the moment. Bielsa needs to change something though, it may sound a bit mad but given Dallas is completely ineffective I’d be tempted to push Phillips up to CM and put struijk or Koch if he ever comes back in to defensive midfield.

[rondownunder]

The fact that we're afraid of moving on from Cooper, Ayling, Dallas, Klich, Roberts, Harrison etc is embarrassing. We're a PL club now and need to start acting like one. Look at Brighton, I think only Dunk is still there from their promotion.

This is certainly relevant for us, although Brighton have been up for 4 years now. I think Klich, Ayling and Cooper are all a yard slower this year and should be coming off the bench at best when the squad is fully fit. Roberts is just not a PL player. Harrison needs to find the form of last season, which I expect him to find again soon.

[VinnysTattoo]

This forum is a refreshing change to some others of the “sack him now” ilk.

I like the supported views of most on here but from all of them it is clear something has to change.

We cannot change the poor recruitment in the Summer so we have what we have. This all at the manager’s feet now and I feel he has reached a crossroads in his time at ER.

Carry on down the same road and I fear his time here will be short. This road is his locked in reliance of mainly Championship players who cannot give any more.

The next simplest road to take is to trust youth I feel. Not a wholesale change but certainly this involves Gelhardt Creswell and hopefully Greenwood and Summerville.

The only other road to take is a change in tactics which I think he will never do.

The next six games are, I’m afraid, season defining for MB.

Personally I would like him to take the second road, but my horrible gut feeling is he will stick with what he knows. I really hope he gets through this period whatever he does because the boos will start I feel with his next Roberts substitution and then we will have a snowball effect.
Personally I have never booed a Leeds team or player but it only takes a few hundred to sound like it’s everyone and then the writing is definitely on the wall.

[Leeds1000]

I said it before be careful what you wish for. Marcelo is trying youth at the minute, maybe that's down to injuries but Creswell now belongs in the group, Jimmy looks bright and should be above Roberts in the pecking order on the wing and Gelhardt is behind Rodrigo and Bamford.

I agree the recruitment was future rather than present based. Every year we leave it to the last minute dot.com giving the incoming players no time to get upto Bielsa speed. In saying all that after the way we finished last season i don't loose sight of our meteoric rise under Marcelo, yes it looks like we have it the wall at the minute, but he's been unlucky with injuries and i am not sure there is anyone else out there who gets more out of these old league 1 players.

After the fantastic weird season last year...Its time for a reality check.

[White Riot]

Imo the simple facts is the club got complacent.

They recruited minimally and poorly with off the ball skills at the front of their mind and neglected the tactical and technical needs of the team.

Those stats Leon posted are symptomatic of a fading limited team who perhaps are running out of steam, tired minds and tired bodies get turned over and concede a lot more than fresh ones.

It also highlights the neglect of our midfield, we have 2 30 year olds in it and one of them isnt a proper midfielder really lets be honest, he has done a great job as a utility man but you dont get creativity from Dallas you get energy and when that is gone he offers very little.

Imo maybe what we are seeing is evidence that MB has never been a club manager for a long time ? This is ny a distance his longest spell at one club.

He has never had to rejuvenate a squad, he has never had to slowly evolve a squad.

He has his core group and he will use them for aslong as he can, after all why wouldn't he? They have served him well for years?

Well performances levels can drop over time, energy levels drop over time, many of our squad are pushing 30 with almost no top flight experience, they are where they are because they have played out of their skin for years in a style that suits them because it doesnt necessarily require them to be technically better than their opponents just much fitter.

It effectively requires them to be at 100% of their ability and fitness 100% of the time, 100% sharp and on it.

And they have been for MB hence why he trusts them.

But that was never going to last indefinitely and that perhaps is where MB's analytical and logical mind has a blind spot?

Where his lack of experience in this situation shows?

Excellent post CJ

When you keep squeezing an orange it becomes dry, and the goodness and vitality is completely gone.

That's where Leeds as a first team are at now.

I think Radz, Orta, Kinnear and MB, especially, had it in their heads that the guys who got us here could continue performing at this level for many years and they had lots of time to rejuvenate the squad. But it seems like that belief and loyalty has been misplaced, in that they've not seen the reality of the limitations of these players.

Other then KP, we're now seeing that energy, skill and confidence needs to be injected into this team/squad. That has happened in the shape of Meslier, Raphinha, Struijk, Cresswell, and Shackleton. Due to the injuries and unavailability, we're still unsure whether Koch, Llorente and Rodrigo can be considered as successful upgrades. James and Firpo might be improvements but it's too early to tell.

Due to a number of factors we've stagnated, and teams that do that at this level invariably get relegated.

All we can hope is that our players get fit again, find form and confidence and MB has the insight to see that he needs to start placing faith in our youngsters, rather than waiting for the next injury/unavailability crisis to force his hand.

We're in a pickle and it needs fixed very quickly, or we're heading for a long and painful relegation battle.

The next 4 EPL fixtures will give us a true reflection of exactly where we're at, but even if we get maximum points that will not mask the fact that this squad needs to be overhauled, an opportunity that was spurned in the summer.

[1964white]

This forum is a refreshing change to some others of the “sack him now” ilk.

I like the supported views of most on here but from all of them it is clear something has to change.

We cannot change the poor recruitment in the Summer so we have what we have. This all at the manager’s feet now and I feel he has reached a crossroads in his time at ER.

Carry on down the same road and I fear his time here will be short. This road is his locked in reliance of mainly Championship players who cannot give any more.

The next simplest road to take is to trust youth I feel. Not a wholesale change but certainly this involves Gelhardt Creswell and hopefully Greenwood and Summerville.

The only other road to take is a change in tactics which I think he will never do.

The next six games are, I’m afraid, season defining for MB.

Personally I would like him to take the second road, but my horrible gut feeling is he will stick with what he knows. I really hope he gets through this period whatever he does because the boos will start I feel with his next Roberts substitution and then we will have a snowball effect.
Personally I have never booed a Leeds team or player but it only takes a few hundred to sound like it’s everyone and then the writing is definitely on the wall.

Good post Tattoo.

Thankfully, no one on here has stated Marcelo should be sacked, even though he is frustrating fans with his cat-like habits.

[1964white]

I said it before be careful what you wish for. Marcelo is trying youth at the minute, maybe that's down to injuries but Creswell now belongs in the group, Jimmy looks bright and should be above Roberts in the pecking order on the wing and Gelhardt is behind Rodrigo and Bamford.

I agree the recruitment was future rather than present based. Every year we leave it to the last minute dot.com giving the incoming players no time to get upto Bielsa speed. In saying all that after the way we finished last season i don't loose sight of our meteoric rise under Marcelo, yes it looks like we have it the wall at the minute, but he's been unlucky with injuries and i am not sure there is anyone else out there who gets more out of these old league 1 players.

After the fantastic weird season last year...Its time for a reality check.

Especially as Kinnear suggested, 'we'll do our business early'. As you say 1000, it's a Leeds United trait every season.