Marcelo Bielsa

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weasel
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

Post by weasel »

CHAPELALLMAN wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:40 pm I'm always amazed at how little credit Wilko gets from Leeds fans, and in fact it's one of the reasons why I tend to not be too gushing about Marcelo Bielsa. I just smile now when I hear people saying that Bielsa is running Wilko close as the 2nd greatest ever Leeds manager. Maybe it's because Wilko was born in Sheffield and managed Wednesday that he is held in so little regard ? Or maybe because the recruitment after winning the title didn't quite match the same standard prior to winning it. Prior to winning the 1st division he never put a foot wrong with his recruitment, so he created sky high expectations after just 3.5 seasons at the club.

When Wilko took over in October 1988 the club was 23rd in the second division, and ahead only on goal difference from a relegation place. He had no summer to impose his methods on the side or to bring new players in. Bielsa took over in the summer with the club having finished 19 points above relegation.

I've just looked at the players in the 1st team when Wilko took over, and it included John Stiles, David Rennie, Micky Adams, Vince Hilaire, Noel Blake and Bobby Davison. Only David Batty from the 1st team in October 1988 was part of the team that won the title in 92/3. That title winning side had Batty and Speed from the academy and all the rest were bought by Wilko over 2.5 seasons.

Wilko didn't have a DOF back then, so he chose the transfer targets. So to win the 1st division title he brought in Strachan, McAllister, Chapman, Wallace, Dorigo, Fairclough, Lukic, Hodge and Cantona. So unlike today's recruitment, it was hit, hit and hit rather than hit and miss.

To go from 23rd in the second tier to winning it the next season, to then after 9 years away from the top tier come 4th in the first season back, and then to go on an win the top tier the year after I think is still one of the most amazing feats in the club's history. It was two titles in three years - so 2nd division champions, 4th in the first division, 1st division champions, 17th in the 1st division, 5th in the first division and 5th in the first division. Next season he was sacked in Sept.

I think his problem was that he achieved too much too quickly which created unrealistic expectations among the fanbase. I don't know exactly what went on with the Cantona saga - however I remember reading in a newspaper report at the time after Cantona made his first appearance for us as a sub, him being criticised for being sluggish and poor. So Wilko deserves great credit for having the vision to bring him to the club in the first place.

And then there were some memorable European performances - especially the wins against Stuttgart and Monaco. Plus one League Cup semi and one League Cup final appearance.

And be bought Yeboah - who is now regarded as a club legend with the most spectacular goals ever scored by a Leeds player other than Peter Lorimer. People tend to forget too that he brought in Bowyer, Martyn and Radebe, so together with the academy players he virtually created the team for O'Leary to flourish with in the next golden era from 1998 to 2002.

And of course Wilko set up the academy which both O'Leary and Bielsa have benefited from during their tenures.

So Marcelo Bielsa and Wliko neck and neck in terms of being the second greatest ever Leeds manager ? No way !
A little bit selective with making the 1989 team out to be poorer than they were when he came in. The nucleus of that team had got to the FA Cup Semi Final in 1987 (losing in extra time to eventual winners Coventry) and had also lost in extra time of a Play Off Final replay. So the team wasn't a team that had finished 19th but a team that had struggled at the start of the season and was in 19th place after a handful of matches. The team he inherited also had John Sheridan in it.

Like you though I do think the biggest problem was achieving too much too soon. If he finished 17th, 5th, 5th, 4th, 1st then it would have been seen as a fantastic achievement continually improving etc. The biggest problem was that so many fans never forgave him for selling Cantona to Man U and many would have rather kept Cantona and got rid of Wilkinson. A bit similar to how some fans would side with PJ or Pablo Hernandez over Bielsa.

Would love to sit down and have a pint with Wilko. I thnk he had a great sense of humour, a very dry humour, and was not at all like the dour yorkshireman the press painted him as.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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He was brilliant for us, met him once and he had that special aura about him. I held Wilko in the very highest regard.........
......until he practically 'gave' Cantona to that lot over the Pennines. The very catalyst, the missing part of their jigsaw. I will never forgive him for that.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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whiteswan wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:34 pm He was brilliant for us, met him once and he had that special aura about him. I held Wilko in the very highest regard.........
......until he practically 'gave' Cantona to that lot over the Pennines. The very catalyst, the missing part of their jigsaw. I will never forgive him for that.
I don't think him selling Cantona would have been such an issue if it hadn't resulted in it galvanising ' that lot over the Pennines ' into winning the title after donkey's years, and which in turn set them up for many years of dominance in the PL.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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weasel wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:29 pm A little bit selective with making the 1989 team out to be poorer than they were when he came in. The nucleus of that team had got to the FA Cup Semi Final in 1987 (losing in extra time to eventual winners Coventry) and had also lost in extra time of a Play Off Final replay. So the team wasn't a team that had finished 19th but a team that had struggled at the start of the season and was in 19th place after a handful of matches. The team he inherited also had John Sheridan in it.

Like you though I do think the biggest problem was achieving too much too soon. If he finished 17th, 5th, 5th, 4th, 1st then it would have been seen as a fantastic achievement continually improving etc. The biggest problem was that so many fans never forgave him for selling Cantona to Man U and many would have rather kept Cantona and got rid of Wilkinson. A bit similar to how some fans would side with PJ or Pablo Hernandez over Bielsa.

Would love to sit down and have a pint with Wilko. I thnk he had a great sense of humour, a very dry humour, and was not at all like the dour yorkshireman the press painted him as.
Maybe - but didn't Bremner at one point candidly tell a journalist that ' Sheridan is the only really top player that we have in the team' ? I think that Sheridan having a purple patch was the main reason why they came so close in 1987/8. He was carrying that team.
I don't think that team would have risen much higher from 23rd in the league without a change of manager - even with his transformational magic, and even after bringing in a few players Wilko could only get them up to 10th by the end of the season. They were 9 games into the season when he arrived.

And then there was a clear-out the following summer. He fell out with Sheridan of course - but that's the kind of thing which happens with Bielsa as well.

In fact they have quite a lot in common in terms of having an iron will, being very clear about their demands on the players and leaving nobody in any doubt at the club who is in charge. Also the same meticulous OCD attention to detail and an obsession with achieving exceptionally high levels of fitness.
Last edited by CHAPELALLMAN on Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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Revie
Wilko
O'leary
Bielsa
As it stands for me.
"Critics are men that watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors"
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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mentalcase wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:31 pm Revie
Wilko
O'leary
Bielsa
As it stands for me.
Me too. Armfield tying with Bielsa though - he inherited a very ageing team.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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CHAPELALLMAN wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:33 pm Me too. Armfield tying with Bielsa though - he inherited a very ageing team.
Wilko won too much too soon, then rested on his laurels, thats what ultimately cost him, I'll be forever grateful for what he did, especially with the academy, he also made the blueprint for the England set-up, only to be royally fucked over by ageing never has-beens at the FA, shame on them, they personally set England back by years with their personal vendetta against LUFC , Wilko was way ahead of his time, just like Don was, we get no appreciation whatsoever regarding Don & Wilko.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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mentalcase wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:41 pm Wilko won too much too soon, then rested on his laurels, thats what ultimately cost him, I'll be forever grateful for what he did, especially with the academy, he also made the blueprint for the England set-up, only to be royally fucked over by ageing never has-beens at the FA, shame on them, they personally set England back by years with their personal vendetta against LUFC , Wilko was way ahead of his time, just like Don was, we get no appreciation whatsoever regarding Don & Wilko.
I'd spent 5 or 6 seasons going to most home games, and getting excited if we beat Shrewsbury Town. All there was to light up those dreary years really was the brilliance of John Sheridan and one or two other youth players.

Then all of a sudden we are promoted as champions, finishing 4th first season back and then beating the arch enemy to the first division title ! Then we are playing in the European Cup again. Only thing is that I moved from Leeds to London in September 1988 so had to follow the action remotely :roll: just my luck really.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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mentalcase wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:41 pm I'll be forever grateful for what he did, especially with the academy
It would have been very interesting to see what style of play he adopted with the youngsters if he'd been there as his 10 year plan came to fruition. He wrongly, in my opinion, semed to be labelled as long ball, prgamatic etc but for me a lot of that is playing to the strengths of the players you have at your disposal but I feel he had got the youths playing a different way with more freedom. Some of the performances in the title winning season though were superb, the 4-1 win at Villa, the 6-1 at Hillsborough 2 that readily spring to mind.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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Does anyone think we should have a Wilko thread :duno:
This is a Bielsa thread......yes :dun:
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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whiteswan wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am Does anyone think we should have a Wilko thread :duno:
This is a Bielsa thread......yes :dun:
I think it would be an excellent idea to have a thread specifically devoted to Wilko to give him some of the respect that he deserves. Cant believe it is 30 years ago that we were beginning to believe that we really had a chance of winning the title. My last year at school in Manchester and around this time of year we'd just lost to MU in the FA Cup and League Cup Semi Final and yet we'd go on to have the last laugh - albeit briefly with what then happened for the next couple of decades.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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faaip wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:20 pm So lets play with this for a minute. Bielsa likes to play a 3331 formation or combination of 3331. That's one centre back, a pair of full backs. Then it looks like 3 CMF/DMF followed buy 3 AMF and a striker

BPF (now a full international I hear? )

Ayling - Jannson - Pearce

Forshaw Klich Vierra

Alioski Hernandez Saiz

Roberts

?

from what we have here right now
Interesting how far down the pecking order Kalvin Phillips, Liam Cooper and Stuart Dallas were at the time.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa

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weasel wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:32 am I think it would be an excellent idea to have a thread specifically devoted to Wilko to give him some of the respect that he deserves. Cant believe it is 30 years ago that we were beginning to believe that we really had a chance of winning the title. My last year at school in Manchester and around this time of year we'd just lost to MU in the FA Cup and League Cup Semi Final and yet we'd go on to have the last laugh - albeit briefly with what then happened for the next couple of decades.
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MB Pre Newcastle

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Bielsa's here - how satisfying to get back to back wins under such adversity?

The difficulties can sometimes be interpreted as obstacles, but sometimes it's a situation to fortify the strength of the group. Up until now in the season we have been constantly challenged. We tried to improve the quality of our responses in the face of adversity.


Postponement rule abused by come clubs?

I don't think so, but it's not important what I think because the important thing is to trust those who administer the rules because there are rules that define whether a game can or cannot be suspended. The conditions you have to demonstrate for them to be suspended. Because I trust in those who administer those decisions. I trust all the games that were suspended met the criteria for them to be suspended. The question is not do the clubs take advantage, but the question is if those who evaluate do it good or bad. For a club to take advantage there has to be an evaluation that was mistaken because the rules have to be sufficiently clear.


Any players back?

Forshaw and Firpo have muscular injuries and Bamford has a new injury at the bottom of his foot. He has overcome his muscular issues, but now he has an issue at the bottom of his foot

Hamstring for Firpo and Forshaw?

Yes.


Pushing for cup weekend date with Villa?

I don't have the capacity to pick when the games are rearranged. They are not decisions I make.


Preferable for sooner rather than later?

Whatever the authorities say. Coaches don't have the opportunity to decide when games are played. That does allow for speculation.


Aaronson - what do you know about him? Why suitable?

I prefer to speak about a player when it's not a hypothetical possibility and when they are our player.

How different are Newcastle now?

With respect to the players they have brought in, they are positions that are very specific. The right-back and a centre forward. A centre forward who comes to replace the player they normally play in that position. Both classic centre forwards. Even if they have different features they both play as CFs. The same as their RB. Plays at different heights down the right side. Those two signings from my point of view, difficult to interpret their coach, not convenient, do not alter the way they play. The individualities enrich a squad.


Injuries - worst spell in your career?

Not with so many players. What is very intriguing or not so much how many injuries, but that players are injured all play in similar positions. In some way we have always found solutions. It's likely for this game we are going to count on Roberts, with Gelhardt and Rodrigo Moreno [?]. The players out of the squad in that position are going to be Patrick and Greenwood. Progressively we have been resolving the situation. The same with the absence of Cooper, Koch, Llorente, Pascal. Resolved with Ayling and Koch as a DM when healthy. Forshaw is a DM. Also true all the clubs have problems with counting on all their players.


Relegation battle

We have to see how many points are in play. See what games the other teams have. After seeing the succession of results in each team, positive or negative, so after half of the season has past, to discard any evolution in each team is not convenient, especially in a league so difficult.


Best you have seen Raphinha play right now?

No, he has had many games where he has shone. He has had many actions where he has unbalanced in a lot of games. To say this was his best game in a Leeds shirt I don't have it so clear. He is a player easy to remember his goals, his assists, dribbles and good performances


Howe

He has found a system. A habitual group of players. An XI which repeats itself regularly. He has evened the team out in all of their games. Close to their opponents. This all talks positively about the job he is doing


Importance of your relationship with Orta?

More than my opinion, there is evidence of the growth of Leeds United since Victor Orta has been here. The teams are produced through the individualities, in that sense, he has picked well. He has found adequate players. They adapt to the way of playing for Leeds, the majority of them are young, and the players that have arrived are usually worth more after being here. That means he picked players with a margin of growth with the potential to be better. He's a person who knows the market very well for young players in different countries. He has picked young players who are very good, just to name Pascal, Gelhardt, Hjelde. All of these things don't need me to describe them. I am describing things you can see in reality


Archie Gray experience?

​What’s happened to him has been premature. I don’t think it’s good for a player of his age to occupy this space. If I could have avoided it I would have done it. The players we have to put them in positions where they can assume the possibilities that arise. Obviously, Gray is not prepared for the PL. The reality took him to be there deservedly. Every time I form a group from the squad I pick the best of those available. Of course, he’s a player full of virtues. In spite of being so young, he can compete. Clearly, his process has been altered to get to a player of being elite. He has the resources to achieve it, he will achieve it, he is very, very strong mentally. He has the conditions to play in any sector of the [piotch. Very, very intelligent player. I ignore what his life is usually. Given how he behaves, I can see his education is well


Anyone back besides Llorente?

Llorente and probably Tyler Roberts and Gelhardt. We maintain the presence of Rodrigo, who played 30 minutes last week.



What does it say for you to give eight teenagers debuts? A record

What you are saying is poorly described.

We have asked for games to be suspended when the rules gave us the chance to have those games suspended. We have not asked to suspend games when we haven't had the reality for that to happen. It's not that I'm rejecting your praise, the total opposite. I like to be valued. In this case, your evaluation does not match up with the reality, but is true we had used younger players to integrate our teams To have young players part of the formation every weekend has its value because the group has completed its integration with young players who are in development. If the club had decided not to count on them, the club should have signed four, five, six players older with a bigger background. It also corresponds to say, to value the work we have done, the real important thing is to manage to create PL players. Pascal is a PL player. His background is identical to those players you are making reference to. That is a triumph of the work of the youth teams because he is a player who has converted himself into a PL player where he started in the immediate team below the first team. So, what I think should be judged, what's going to be seen as a contribution by the club, is how many of the players with the team have converted themselves into habitualt players in the first team. For example, Gelhardt and Hjelde are one or two options in their roles for many years that would mean they have converted themselves into PL players, but that's still in development


Importance of fans standing by you through difficult spell?

Very important. There's a phrase that says a club needs to be loved to win, not they are loved because they won. All of the teams are loved because they won. Very important to be loved to be able to win. That demands loyalty and unconditionality throughout the games. From that sense, the fans of Leeds showed massive generosity.


Many great days under your leadership, Sunday falls into that special category - have you seen a brightness in your players this week?

The next game is always the next thing on our minds. But it is true that a victory like that always improves the mood. To prepare a game with a tranquillity of a victory is better than doing it without. But the most important thing is always the next game. To have won the last game doesnt' give you any guarantees in the next one and to lose the next one is to take away some of the shine of the previous victory so we always try to lean on what happened beforehand but always looking forward to the next.

In the coming international break you will only lose Raphinha - how big an opportunity will that be for you and your players to prepare for the final stretch of the season?

The players who have rest at mid-season makes the percentage of injuries a lot less so the rest is the path and preparation in the life of a footballer, and I have the feeling that the high dosage of rest is the most important thing at this stage of the season.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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Forshaw and Firpo are out

Gelhardt, Roberts and Llorente may be back.

Bamford has a new injury.

Spoke about Newcastle

Spoke about Raph

Spoke about the fans and Orta.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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May as well give up on Paddy this season, it's one injury after another, an infected foot would be very painful for weeks until it clears up.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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1964white wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:00 pm May as well give up on Paddy this season, it's one injury after another, an infected foot would be very painful for weeks until it clears up.
My first thought was to put Paddy out of my mind now for this season. Stop hoping :roll:

I can't help thinking that none of these silly injuries would have happened if he hadn't stupidly injured himself celebrating.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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Surely we need a new striker bringing in this window?
If Geldhart gets injured or ill, we're back to playing a winger as a striker again, and it hasn't been a real successful experiment.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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With Paddy still out having Gelhardt and Llorente back makes us stronger on paper than last week.
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Re: MB Pre Newcastle

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Cjay wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:50 pm
Any players back?

Forshaw and Firpo have muscular injuries and Bamford has a new injury at the bottom of his foot. He has overcome his muscular issues, but now he has an issue at the bottom of his foot.
Like everyone else said, best to put Bamford out to pasture for the rest of the season. Bit of a risk relying on Gelhardt, Tyler, and Rodrigo for the rest of the season, but hopefully our midfielders will step up and score some goals.
Cjay wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:50 pm
Aaronson - what do you know about him? Why suitable?

I prefer to speak about a player when it's not a hypothetical possibility and when they are our player.
Interesting remarks by Bielsa. Sounds like there's a lot going on behind the scenes regarding this potential transfer and there's definitely no smoke without fire. If there was nothing doing, Bielsa would have been much more dismissive than this as he usually is with comments about transfers.
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