Jesse Marsch

[BGwhite]

Dunno about everyone else but the side to side and back again passing at the back used to bore the tits off me ! All that does is allow the opposition to set themselves again . I'm well aware that when we have the ball the opposition can't score but we have 2 very fast wingers so why not get it moving forward faster and utilise their pace and catch the opposition off guard.... unbalance them to use a favourite Bielsa phrase. Possession is all well and good but it counts for nothing when you do nothing with it. A lot of the possession stats will be the passing around the back line so it's quite meaningless. How often do we see teams with lower possession stats go on to win. Good post all the same cjay.

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[John in Louisiana]

Don't think it will be truly informative to try and make sense of Marsch's system until next season. Right now he's simply tweaking what's already in place.

That being said, it's a great post, Cjay. Love the analysis; it gives us a good idea of what we can expect going forward.

[mentalcase]

Don't think it will be truly informative to try and make sense of Marsch's system until next season. Right now he's simply tweaking what's already in place.

That being said, it's a great post, Cjay. Love the analysis; it gives us a good idea of what we can expect going forward.

I agree there John, he's only getting to know the players now, it's points at any cost to keep us up, fight, battle & will to win is fantastic and will hopefully keep us in the league.
Next season we will be able to see exactly what he's implemented and how we will operate, he really needs the summertime to get that defence sorted.
Hopefully get those bloody injuries sorted as well.

[SG90]

The winner against Norwich came from hoofball, which wouldn't have happened under Bielsa. I don't mind it if it helps us, not saying we should do it for 90 mins, but we shouldn't be afraid to use it if necessary.

And the first goal too.

Even Saiss was hoofing the ball in the air for Rodrigo to score

[1964white]

Dunno about everyone else but the side to side and back again passing at the back used to bore the tits off me ! All that does is allow the opposition to set themselves again . I'm well aware that when we have the ball the opposition can't score but we have 2 very fast wingers so why not get it moving forward faster and utilise their pace and catch the opposition off guard.... unbalance them to use a favourite Bielsa phrase. Possession is all well and good but it counts for nothing when you do nothing with it. A lot of the possession stats will be the passing around the back line so it's quite meaningless. How often do we see teams with lower possession stats go on to win. Good post all the same cjay.

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Thing is, we never look comfortable on the ball, particularly at the back.

Llorente to Forshaw to Llorente to Struijk to Llorente to Ayling to Struijk to Llorente then back to Meslier who invariably boots the ball in touch.

Pointless!

[1964white]

The winner against Norwich came from hoofball, which wouldn't have happened under Bielsa. I don't mind it if it helps us, not saying we should do it for 90 mins, but we shouldn't be afraid to use it if necessary

And the first goal too.

Even Saiss was hoofing the ball in the air for Rodrigo to score

[BGwhite]

Thing is, we never look comfortable on the ball, particularly at the back.

Llorente to Forshaw to Llorente to Struijk to Llorente to Ayling to Struijk to Llorente then back to Meslier who invariably boots the ball in touch.

Pointless!

Absolutely,. Even more reason to get the ball forward faster .

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[SG90]

Thing is, we never look comfortable on the ball, particularly at the back.

Llorente to Forshaw to Llorente to Struijk to Llorente to Ayling to Struijk to Llorente then back to Meslier who invariably boots the ball in touch.

Pointless!

Exactly!

[YorkshireSquare]

No idea what Marsch's style is yet or if we've even seen it. Certainly not man marking and narrower than Bielsa but we wont play in his true style until next season. We've been best so far when we've just gone mental.

[1964white]

No idea what Marsch's style is yet or if we've even seen it. Certainly not man marking and narrower than Bielsa but we wont play in his true style until next season. We've been best so far when we've just gone mental.

And Friday's game was as mental & crazy as could possibly be

[Mountain]

Just
No
Hoofball

As an Irish fan, we had years of it under Trapattoni and O'Neill. It's awful beyond belief. And we now have a manager who believes in passing. He has nothing like the profile (or salary) of his predecessors, it's taken a very painful time to bed in and we've lost lots of matches. And we still have a weak squad, no goalscorer and a fear of being turned over. But fans are returning and there is a lot of goodwill about this team. Because they pass and pass and pass, winning or losing, first minute or last.

In recent years I've come to the conclusion that hoofball is just anti football. And to be fair to Marsch, I haven't really detected it yet. There is a difference between quick and long passes forward and hoofball. Any Irish fan will tell you how soul destroying it is

[mentalcase]

liverpool have VVD hitting 60 yard passes but apparently, thats not hoofball !!!

[weasel]

I think it is way too early to judge although it is interesting. For me the key area, and it is missing here, is the accuracy of the long pass. I would expect our figures for long ball success to be way down this season as the 3 key components of successful long balls in my opinion are Phillips, Cooper and Bamford. Cooper and Phillips are great at hitting long balls with a decent degree of accuracy and Bamford is very adept at getting to the ball first and as such making it a successful pass. Long passes that are successful are a great way of beating a high press and turning defence into attack. Long balls losing possession just continually invite possession, as a defender I know how hard it is when the ball keeps coming back when your clearances seem to always find the opposition and your forward players cannot hold possession.

Mentalcase's comment is a case in point as VVD hits passes with a similar degree of accuracy as Cooper and Phillips. It is also a case in a well drilled system where as a defender you aren't having to look up when clearing the ball but know that if you clear it towards a certain area your players will be there. A lot of the Bielsa success is built around having a well drilled team and players not having to look up to see where a player is but knowing that a player, or more, will be moving towards an area when you have the ball.

[The Subhuman]

Hoofball - Hitting a ball long, often without looking, to either clear your defence in panic or it's the easiest no risk option requireing little in skill or imagination

Longball - Looking up and picking your target and placing it in that area, either up the middle or the long crossfield that Kalvin is so good at . Llorente's to Bamford for the first v Norwich was a long ball...

[1964white]

So there is a case for playing more direct, surely longball is more effective when necessary than fannying about at the back when under pressure!

All PL clubs are now copying Bielsaball with the emphasis on pressing the opposition, we haven't got the quality of the likes of Citeh, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc, players with the ball so should be looking at other ways of counteracting the press rather than being forced into errors that have generally led to us conceding goals.

[Kennyb41]

Bert was trying to teach and instill it into our team of world class players, but apparently a bad workman blames his tools.

LC and KP could turn defence into attack at the flick of a switch.

The rest? Go figure.

[Byebyegeegee]

Longball - Looking up and picking your target and placing it in that area, either up the middle or the long crossfield that Kalvin is so good at . Llorente's to Bamford for the first v Norwich was a long ball...

Llorente’s long ball, whilst I’m sure it was aimed approximately at Bamford, in the end he didn’t get anywhere near it and it was easily cut out, but the point being that it worked because both James and Rodrigo were alert enough to pick up the pieces hence the goal.

This sort of thing can and does happen and therefore in my opinion, if used correctly, this long ball/hoof ball tactic can be legitimate. As others have said it’s a good way to beat a high press and put the opposition on the back foot but also if followed up quickly and with a bit of luck can be quite advantageous.

I don’t think Marcelo Bielsa would approve at all and I’m pretty sure that the players were discouraged. And, having worked us out this season, this then led to a constant high press from the opposition secure in the knowledge that our defenders would try to pass their way out of trouble rather than just clear the ball upfield, which led to us regularly getting into a bit of a tangle at the back often losing the ball in dangerous areas.

Obviously if you play long ball/hoof ball consistently then not only is that anti-football but it becomes easy for opposition of the calibre of the Premier League to counteract, but if you mix the two styles together, as it seems that Marsch is advocating, then maybe that is the best of both worlds.

[VinnysTattoo]

I’m 50/50 with Marsch at the moment.

It’s not difficult to drop the man to man marking, but what is very difficult is to get the team to adapt, given how long they have been used to the former.

These two weeks have come at an ideal time. I’m hoping Marsch can get them drilled better as it seems currently to be a mish mash of two systems.

I also hope a fit KP will be part of his system as he is key to our survival.

Confidence must be higher than it has been for a long time so I am hoping he can use that and come back after the break firing on all cylinders.

[Byebyegeegee]

Well done Cjay a balanced post with a proper assessment of JM - this is how it should be.

Interestingly in the equivalent 4 matches under Bielsa we gained the same 6 points albeit with a win and 3 draws. 7 goals for 6 against. JM 2 wins 2 draw 5 goals for 7 against. So it is definitely a case of far too soon to really pass judgement and to say we are doing better is only the case if we take it as doing better than the immediate games prior to JM taking over or the season as a whole. Saying we have turned a corner is far too early, we have arrested a slide that was largely caused by playing better teams (Everton apart) and as such it would likley have been that no matter who was in charge we would have seen an upturn in form.

We should get more of an idea after the international break as JM will have had a better chance to implement his ideas and most of our internationals will be training with him too after not being selected.

It was the Everton game that really was the eye-opener for me, an abject 3-0 defeat to one of the poorest (if not the poorest) team in the league currently. I know we’ve lost 3-0 since to Villa but they are a far better team than Everton. Everton have been on a terrible run of form lately but were 10 times better than us in that match and it’s obvious now, that, as well as their confidence being shot, our players were not fully committed either, I think they had lost faith in the system and, in fact, as has since come to light, the Manager.

[1964white]

So there is a case for playing more direct, surely longball is more effective when necessary than fannying about at the back when under pressure!

All PL clubs are now copying Bielsaball with the emphasis on pressing the opposition, we haven't got the quality of the likes of Citeh, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc, as far as players on the ball so should be looking at other ways of counteracting the press rather than being forced into errors that have generally led to us conceding goals.