Jesse Marsch

[mentalcase]

So there is a case for playing more direct, surely longball is more effective when necessary than fannying about at the back when under pressure!

All PL clubs are now copying Bielsaball with the emphasis on pressing the opposition, we haven't got the quality of the likes of Citeh, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc, as far as players on the ball so should be looking at other ways of counteracting the press rather than being forced into errors that have generally led to us conceding goals.

And therein lies the main issue, I've said it all along, consecutive failures in transfer windows to get in some quality has, and will continue to cost us, the 3 in charge at the time whom couldn't agree on anything have systematically let the club down.
We desperately need better quality players, the ones we have can only run themselves into the ground for so long, the cream will always rise to the top.
Only my honest opinion like, no doubt some will slate me for that statement, but. I'm not living in the past.

[1964white]

Apparently, Jesse Marsch recognises the players need a rest from training after a hectic match schedule & has given his squad time off until Wednesday to recover & recharge their battteries.

You heard it here first.

Well done Jesse

[weasel]

Llorente’s long ball, whilst I’m sure it was aimed approximately at Bamford, in the end he didn’t get anywhere near it and it was easily cut out, but the point being that it worked because both James and Rodrigo were alert enough to pick up the pieces hence the goal.

This sort of thing can and does happen and therefore in my opinion, if used correctly, this long ball/hoof ball tactic can be legitimate. As others have said it’s a good way to beat a high press and put the opposition on the back foot but also if followed up quickly and with a bit of luck can be quite advantageous.

I don’t think Marcelo Bielsa would approve at all and I’m pretty sure that the players were discouraged. And, having worked us out this season, this then led to a constant high press from the opposition secure in the knowledge that our defenders would try to pass their way out of trouble rather than just clear the ball upfield, which led to us regularly getting into a bit of a tangle at the back often losing the ball in dangerous areas.

Obviously if you play long ball/hoof ball consistently then not only is that anti-football but it becomes easy for opposition of the calibre of the Premier League to counteract, but if you mix the two styles together, as it seems that Marsch is advocating, then maybe that is the best of both worlds.

I would say Bielsa got it right, we certainly enjoyed a lot of success with the way we played under Bielsa. I think the definition of what makes a longball is key as I think we need to know what distance a ball has to travel to make it a longball. For example us knocking a ball from one side of the pitch to the other accross the width of the pitch is a long ball as it has gone a fair distance (certainly as far as say Llorente's long ball forward towards Bamford in the build up to the first goal v Norwich or even Messlier's ball to Gelhardt). ALso is kncking the ball from fullback down the line to the winger classed as a longball? For us to be getting 50 to 60 longballs in Bielsa matches it certainly isn't just 50 to 60 hoofs down the pitch that has been counted.

As you say BBGG the key is being able to mix it and play it at the right time. The Norwich game is a good example of needing that bit of luck, the longballs that worked out for us should both have been cleared by Norwich.Another day we are simply moaning about giving away possession.

This season we have been caught out a lot more playing around at the back but that I think is a combination of 2 things. Firstly some opposition teams were pressing higher, Man City a great example, but also the chopping an changing at the back has made the passing far less slick, when playing it around at the back against a good press you need to be able to play first time passes accurately and for example how Ayling might like to receive the ball could be different to how Dallas or Shackleton might like the ball. That split second of having to either control the ball or adjust your body to play the pass is often the reason the opposition can pounce as the player can't get the pass away in time or the pass goes astray. That is why it was so amazing when we did it against Stoke 3 1/2 years ago as it was the same players who had looked completely incapable of playing that way that were suddenly able to do it. To play the Bielsa way back then I think all of us would have expected it to need a whole new team.

[weasel]

It was the Everton game that really was the eye-opener for me, an abject 3-0 defeat to one of the poorest (if not the poorest) team in the league currently. I know we’ve lost 3-0 since to Villa but they are a far better team than Everton. Everton have been on a terrible run of form lately but were 10 times better than us in that match and it’s obvious now, that, as well as their confidence being shot, our players were not fully committed either, I think they had lost faith in the system and, in fact, as has since come to light, the Manager.

I would disagree with the confidence being shot as we had just played against Villa (the 3-3 draw) where we started superbly and were playing with real confidence. We then went 3-1 down but showed desire and commitemnt to get it back to 3-3 with Villa hanging on. Compare it to the Wolves turnaround and it was very similar (apart fromus not getting the winner but also not playing against 10 men until right at the end). People are quick to say commitment, confidence etc about the Wolves turnaround yet the Villa performance was almost the exact same, we started both games brightly, created chances then lost our way completely before fighting back.

The Everton performance for me was a hangover type performance. I think we gave eveything against Villa and were running on fumes against Everton. If one or both of Rodrigo's efforts had gone in we'd have likely been saying stuff like Rodrigo looks like a new player, something's given him his spark back, Bielsa seems to have got Rodrigo playing again etc.

Before people discount views as being cos I was a Bielsa fan I would suggest putting that to one side as I am just looking at events that happened in terms of basing an argument rather than making things up based on rumours, like the dressing room revolt etc.

[1964white]

It was the Everton game that really was the eye-opener for me, an abject 3-0 defeat to one of the poorest (if not the poorest) team in the league currently. I know we’ve lost 3-0 since to Villa but they are a far better team than Everton. Everton have been on a terrible run of form lately but were 10 times better than us in that match and it’s obvious now, that, as well as their confidence being shot, our players were not fully committed either, I think they had lost faith in the system and, in fact, as has since come to light, the Manager.

Indeed they were Byebye

Interesting, apart from Villa who caught us cold on the night, our zest & energy returned v Leicester, Norwich & Wolves, three of our most enjoyable games of the season (and stressful too)

I wonder what the significant factor could be

[1964white]

I would disagree with the confidence being shot as we had just played against Villa (the 3-3 draw) where we started superbly and were playing with real confidence. We then went 3-1 down but showed desire and commitemnt to get it back to 3-3 with Villa hanging on. Compare it to the Wolves turnaround and it was very similar (apart fromus not getting the winner but also not playing against 10 men until right at the end). People are quick to say commitment, confidence etc about the Wolves turnaround yet the Villa performance was almost the exact same, we started both games brightly, created chances then lost our way completely before fighting back.

The Everton performance for me was a hangover type performance. I think we gave eveything against Villa and were running on fumes against Everton. If one or both of Rodrigo's efforts had gone in we'd have likely been saying stuff like Rodrigo looks like a new player, something's given him his spark back, Bielsa seems to have got Rodrigo playing again etc.

Before people discount views as being cos I was a Bielsa fan I would suggest putting that to one side as I am just looking at events that happened in terms of basing an argument rather than making things up based on rumours, like the dressing room revolt etc.

Forget the Rodrigo efforts Weasel, yes Rodders was unlucky

That performance was nothing short of shocking, the worst display of the season bearing in mind who we were playing imo!

[Byebyegeegee]

Indeed it was amazing against Stoke weasel, and by and large for the next 2 seasons against Championship opposition and, although to a lesser extent, for the 1st season in the Premier League. But eventually the better teams with cleverer players were able to work us (the Bielsa system) out and knew that if they pressed us high enough with enough players to cut off the easy short passes and close down the spaces, we would eventually get into trouble, being reluctant to just hoof the ball upfield, still looking for a pass to a teammate in space.

The above combined with often committing too many players upfield to support an attack, which when it worked was scintillating to watch, but this season the opposition had worked out that, if they won the ball (when rather than if more often this season), instead of consolidating their possession, all they needed to do was transition it quickly into the wide open spaces behind our attack and we were left with a deficit of defenders versus their attacking players.

Bielsa’s first 3 years at Leeds United were brilliant, great to watch and being managed by the universally acknowledged fairest and most enigmatic man in football, but this season has been pretty painful for the most part and I’ve now come to accept that a bit of pragmatism, in the form of a change of Manager, was required.

[1964white]

And therein lies the main issue, I've said it all along, consecutive failures in transfer windows to get in some quality has, and will continue to cost us, the 3 in charge at the time whom couldn't agree on anything have systematically let the club down.
We desperately need better quality players, the ones we have can only run themselves into the ground for so long, the cream will always rise to the top.
Only my honest opinion like, no doubt some will slate me for that statement, but. I'm not living in the past.

It's pretty obvious we require a bigger & more quality squad, Mental

Anyone who thinks different are living in cuckoo land.

We'll reap the rewards in the summer I suspect, Jesse doesn't seem the sort of guy to rest on his laurels.

[1964white]

Indeed it was amazing against Stoke weasel, and by and large for the next 2 seasons against Championship opposition and, although to a lesser extent, for the 1st season in the Premier League. But eventually the better teams with cleverer players were able to work us (the Bielsa system) out and knew that if they pressed us high enough with enough players to cut off the easy short passes and close down the spaces, we would eventually get into trouble, being reluctant to just hoof the ball upfield, still looking for a pass to a teammate in space.

The above combined with often committing too many players upfield to support an attack, which when it worked was scintillating to watch, but this season the opposition had worked out that, if they won the ball (when rather than if more often this season), instead of consolidating their possession, all they needed to do was transition it quickly into the wide open spaces behind our attack and we were left with a deficit of defenders versus their attacking players.

Bielsa’s first 3 years at Leeds United were brilliant, great to watch and being managed by the universally acknowledged fairest and most enigmatic man in football, but this season has been pretty painful for the most part and I’ve now come to accept that a bit of pragmatism, in the form of a change of Manager, was required.

[weasel]

Bielsa’s first 3 years at Leeds United were brilliant, great to watch and being managed by the universally acknowledged fairest and most enigmatic man in football, but this season has been pretty painful for the most part and I’ve now come to accept that a bit of pragmatism, in the form of a change of Manager, was required.

I think it a case of 2 options. Option A replacing Bielsa and hoping the new manager keeps us up or option B) Hoping Bielsa kept us up and then re-evaluating at the end of the season as to how to fix the glaring deficiences.

A lot of people think Bielsa is completely inflexible but he has made lots of tweaks along the way. Subtle changes rather than big ones. We definitely needed at least 2 or 3 first teamers coming in and to really work out if it is possible to train at the intensity and play at the intensity that we did without injuries being as disruptive. It is easy to say that the intensity is to blame but we have seen no let up in injuries since Bielsa left with Roberts, Firpo, Bamford, Gelhardt, Llorente, Klich, Messlier (have I forgotten anyone!!!) getting injured. I think if Bielsa had stayed he would have been at Thorp Arch every day trying to figure it out.

With not knowing if Bielsa was looking to stay on the board proabbly felt it was best to address the problems now and give Marsch the chance to work out his plan for the summer. I don't expect Marsch to sort us out and make us tight at the back and free flowing overnight and that hasn't been the case with the performances so far, it was never likely to be much different initially. The romantic in me felt we would have stayed up and Bielsa would have been able to sort a lot of the problems out (which for me involved 2 or 3 key signings and players not getting injured as much). We could have then seen Bielsa slowly improving the team season upon season as we bought well and had youths coming through that were really good players. But who knows we could have gone down and Bielsa walk out.

[weasel]

Forget the Rodrigo efforts Weasel, yes Rodders was unlucky

That performance was nothing short of shocking, the worst display of the season bearing in mind who we were playing imo!

I wasn't saying about the Rodrigo efforts in terms of the Everton performance just highlighting that if one or both had have gone in people would have been saying much the same things about Rodrgio as they are now (i.e he looks like he has his confidence back etc).

It is very easy to jump to false conclusions. If Rodrigo's shot v Norwich doesn't hit the defender's ar$e it doesn't go in, or if it had been disallowed for offside, then maybe Rodrigo thinks the world is against him etc and doesn't play well. Rodrigo gets his goal v Norwich, you can see in his reaction how much it means to him and suddenly he is playing with confidence again. All strikers look miles better when they are scoring. Bamford at the start of last season was not a premier league standard striker. He gets his goal v Liverpool on the opening day and he realises he can score at this level. He has that confidence and gets a few more goals and looks a different player who is sudeenly worth £30m instead of probably worth about £3m.

[Byebyegeegee]

I would disagree with the confidence being shot as we had just played against Villa (the 3-3 draw) where we started superbly and were playing with real confidence. We then went 3-1 down but showed desire and commitemnt to get it back to 3-3 with Villa hanging on. Compare it to the Wolves turnaround and it was very similar (apart fromus not getting the winner but also not playing against 10 men until right at the end). People are quick to say commitment, confidence etc about the Wolves turnaround yet the Villa performance was almost the exact same, we started both games brightly, created chances then lost our way completely before fighting back.

The Everton performance for me was a hangover type performance. I think we gave eveything against Villa and were running on fumes against Everton. If one or both of Rodrigo's efforts had gone in we'd have likely been saying stuff like Rodrigo looks like a new player, something's given him his spark back, Bielsa seems to have got Rodrigo playing again etc.

Before people discount views as being cos I was a Bielsa fan I would suggest putting that to one side as I am just looking at events that happened in terms of basing an argument rather than making things up based on rumours, like the dressing room revolt etc.

Fair enough but I’m basing my lack of confidence assertion on the season as a whole not the odd individual game.

There had been a lot of confidence sapping defeats before the Villa/Everton games including a 7-0 drubbing at Manchester City (which had City not noticeably taken their foot off the gas could have been worse) leading to ever present talk of possible relegation, and the fact that we managed to get a draw against Villa would not, in my opinion, have been too significant in terms of restoring any confidence lost across the whole season.

You may dismiss it as a rumour but I think there is strong evidence to suggest at least disquiet in the dressing room, if not exactly a full blown revolt, and if that was the case then that alone foments lack of confidence and therefore commitment.

I don’t think we are out of the woods yet as far as the threat of relegation is concerned because another couple of defeats like the recent Villa one would again see our players’, now brittle, confidence at a low ebb again. But over the last 4 games it has been obvious that in general the players’ mojo seems to have returned somewhat, Ayling, Rodrigo and Klich’s especially.

[Mountain]

Indeed they were Byebye

Interesting, apart from Villa who caught us cold on the night, our zest & energy returned v Leicester, Norwich & Wolves, three of our most enjoyable games of the season (and stressful too)

I wonder what the significant factor could be

If you look back at posts during the matches, few were praising the zest and energy or noting how enjoyable the games were. I think you used the word "shambles" (or echoed Gary Neville saying it) last Friday, and noted that even Guardiola couldn't motivate this bunch of players. And I'm not criticising that, far from it, I think everyone agreed, it pretty much summed things up.

[weasel]

It's funny how people see the match based on the end result and almost ignore what they have just seen with their own eyes. Many views were that we were awful first half yet could have been a couple of goals up before Wolves took a grip of the game. Because we didn't and Wolves got the 2 goals the universal view seemed to be that we were a 'shambles' or words to that effect.

I don't think we were as bad as some make out in the first half and equally don't think we were brilliant second half, we probably created more chances in the first half. It wasn't like we were raining down shot after shot in that second half, we got the two goals in a short space of time then didn't really do much till getting the winner.

[Byebyegeegee]

Indeed they were Byebye

Interesting, apart from Villa who caught us cold on the night, our zest & energy returned v Leicester, Norwich & Wolves, three of our most enjoyable games of the season (and stressful too)

I wonder what the significant factor could be

Agreed 64. We were excellent throughout the Leicester game and definitely deserved to win, the fact that we lost was a travesty. We were certainly the better team v Norwich and excitingly, despite their sucker punch at the end, still had enough to go on and win. I didn’t see much of the first half v Wolves but certainly in the 2nd half we were by far the better team scoring 3 goals in the process and again excitingly overturning a 2 goal deficit, of course 11 v 10 helped but hey that’s football!

Great fun to watch but as I’ve said on the breakfast debate thread we could just do with the occasional “boring” 1-0 win to settle the nerves.

[1964white]

Agreed 64. We were excellent throughout the Leicester game and definitely deserved to win, the fact that we lost was a travesty. We were certainly the better team v Norwich and excitingly, despite their sucker punch at the end, still had enough to go on and win. I didn’t see much of the first half v Wolves but certainly in the 2nd half we were by far the better team scoring 3 goals in the process and again excitingly overturning a 2 goal deficit, of course 11 v 10 helped but hey that’s football!

Great fun to watch but as I’ve said on the breakfast debate thread we could just do with the occasional “boring” 1-0 win to settle the nerves.

Some woolly-head Wolves fans thought we were lucky because they went down to ten men.

They tend to forget they were 2-0 up, playing against a Leeds side without eight of its main first team players on the pitch

I doubt we'll keep another clean sheet this season, mate.

[mentalcase]

Some woolly-head Wolves fans thought we were lucky because they went down to ten men.

They tend to forget they were 2-0 up, playing against a Leeds side without eight of its main first team players on the pitch

I doubt we'll keep another clean sheet this season, mate.

I was talking to some in the pub after the game, most were saying the same thing, he didn't deserve to get sent off, Ahh, said I , maybe so, but what about moutinho, he deserved to be sent off for the tackle on Dallas, they went quite on that one.
Also, if we had put our early chances away, they would have been 0-2 down , typical of our chances created to conversion rates.

[pjm2019]

Was getting a bit concerned that we seemed to be going a bit to direct and were slowly turning into Burnley.

Jesse Marsch isn't a possession based coach in the same way Pep Guardiola is or even Marcelo Bielsa. That was actually the problem he had at RB Leipzig, the squad had gotten used to playing Julian Nagelsmann's methodical possession based style, they couldn't adapt to Marsch's more high intensity gegenpressing style.

Marsch likes his teams to have possession but he isn't quite so focused on how they get it forward just so long as they do.

So it does mean a long ball is encouraged.

However from memory whilst a lot of passing through the thirds did happen under MB i seemed to remember a long ball or two wasnt out of the question either, so i decided to have a quick look.

So these are the stats for the 20/21 season under Bielsa, in brackets are the Premier League rank.
80.8% pass accuracy (12th)
55% possession (4th)
Long balls per game 58 (8th)
Short passes 442. (8th)

So as you can see, we ranked very high for possession, we also ranked fairly high for both long and short passes (but not top 4 like with possession).

I havent marked it but the missing stats are through balls and crosses.

We were high on the list for crossed per game.

So i looked at the 4 games under Hesse Marsch next

Average Marsch
458.5 passes
57.25 long passes
379.5 short passes
78.5% pass accuracy
51.5 possession 

So the possession stats are slightly down from 55% under Bielsa last season to 51% now.

So that will impact passing stats clearly, will make less passes.

Interestingly though the long passes per game are ever so slightly down on BielsaBall.

57.25 under Marsh to 58 under MB. That being said the percentage of long passes has increased because we are having less possession under Marsch and therefore making less passes

Passing accuracy is slightly down as well, from 80.8% under Bielsa to 78.5% under Marsch. That makes sense given we make less passes per game but only a tiny bit less long passes, accuracy is bound to be impacted.

However last season was unique and possibly the circumstances impacted these stats, so i looked at our season average now (which will be slightly impacted by Marsch but not massively given he has only managed 4 games).

21/22
54% possession
79.2 pass accuracy.
55 long passes
393 short passes

And actually you can see a change.

Possession is down, pass accuracy is down etc and actually if you compare the fixtures under Bielsa to the ones Marsch has had (same teams) you can see it more clearly.

Marsch is on the left and the stats under Bielsa are in brackets.

If you are really clever you can work out the comparison in your head, if like me you cant i have put it down the bottom of the list.

Wolves. (Bielsa)
471 passes (521 passes)
51 long passes (47 long passes)
397 short passes (451 short passes)
80% pass accuracy (81%)
53% possession.   (63%)

Norwich  (Bielsa)
448 passes (363 passes)
67 long passes (56 long passes)
353 short passes (296 short passes)
75% pass accuracy (73%)
53% possession  (52%)

Villa (Bielsa)
443 passes (492 passes)
68 long passes (42 long passes)
368 short passes (423 short passes)
79% pass accuracy (83%)
51% possession. (60.5%)

Leicester (Bielsa)
472 passes (470 passes)
43 long passes (52 long passes)
400 short passes (386 short passes )
49% possession (55.8%)
80% pass accuracy (77%)

Average
458.5 passes (461 passes).
57.25 long passes (49.25)
379.5 short passes (389)
78.5% pass accuracy (78.5%)
51.5 possession  (57%)

So total passes are very similar and pass accuracy is identical.

Despite this Bielsa had far more possession so what i assume is the crossing stats under Bielsa would be through the roof, these are the missing numbers.

But in terms of short passes and passing through the thirds the short passes suggest it isn't much different at all.

The pass accuracy reflects that as does the short pass total which isnt hugely different.

We are more direct under Marsch, or at least because we have less possession the long to short pass ratio is higher under Marsch because we make less passes overall.

However it isnt aimless hoofs because if that was the case the pass accuracy stats under the more possession based Bielsa style would be far higher, but it isn't and the short passing stats arent that different either.

Furthermore whilst the season average stats will be very slightly impacted by Marsch's 4 games they wont be much impacted, you are maybe talking. 1% at best something like that

And those stats show our possession stats are slightly down this season, our pass accuracy is down and we were going long under Bielsa a bit more ratio wise and so the difference between Marsch and Bielsa this season is pretty minimal.

I think what makes it seem more is because we have got used to having far more possession under Bielsa overall (not necessarily this season) but in general over the years we are used to seeing a lower long pass ratio and so MarschBall seems quite direct.

But actually this season in particular under Bielsa is has been a slightly more direct style in general and not to dissimilar to Marsch.

We arent turning into Burnley under Marsch but just perhaps adapting to a slightly less possession based style.

His style is more high intensity, win it back and get it forward.

He doesnt put as much focus on possession as Bielsa so if we win it back middle of our half and a long ball over the top to Dan James is the most effective way to get on the front foot then it is encouraged whereas maybe Bielsa had a slightly different view.

Anyway this thread is far to long but hey ho

How the hell did you get these stats and how long did it take.

[Johnboy1965]

Hoofball - Hitting a ball long, often without looking, to either clear your defence in panic or it's the easiest no risk option requireing little in skill or imagination

Longball - Looking up and picking your target and placing it in that area, either up the middle or the long crossfield that Kalvin is so good at . Llorente's to Bamford for the first v Norwich was a long ball...

Exactly, well put.
Like you say a world of difference between Burnley style hoofball and a more direct Longball.
Like in most sports you have to keep the opposition guessing by mixing things up during the game.
Too much of anything becomes predictable and easy to counteract.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Exactly, well put.
Like you say a world of difference between Burnley style hoofball and a more direct Longball.
Like in most sports you have to keep the opposition guessing by mixing things up during the game.
Too much of anything becomes predictable and easy to counteract.

It's worth a few people on here watching clips of Glenn Hoddle in his prime - long passes from any distance and from any angle, sprayed all over the pitch, to put his team suddenly on the offensive out of nothing quite often. Watch how he would place the ball on a sixpence from any distance, and usually with backspin which would drop the ball straight into the path of the forward. Sometimes the forward would be so surprised at the skill involved and the pinpoint precision that he would fluff the chance....

So people who label long balls as negative have obviously never watched any clips of Hoddle - the best passer of the ball in English football history, and easily the best long ball specialist the English game has ever seen.