Positives & Negatives v Watford

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Interestingly as all the narrative, especially in the media, is about how results have transformed since JM came in is that in the 6 fixtures since JM came in that the output is generally about the same.

Result against our last 6 opponents - Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton and Watford

Under Bielsa our record was 2 wins 3 draws 1 defeat. Goals for 8 goals againt 7. So 9 points and +1 gd

Under Marsch our record is 3 wins, 1 draw, 2 defeats. Goals for 9, goals against 8. So points 10 and +1gd.

It is interesting that the general opinion is that we look better defensively, yet have conceded more goals under Marsch and whilst results have picked up markedly from what they were it suggests that the results are more influenced by the quality of opposition we have played rather than a specific up turn in performances.

I would say our performances against Norwich and Southampton were better under Marsch. Against Villa and Watford they were betteer under Bielsa (albiet the Watford scoreline was more flattering today) and the Leicester and Wolvers performance were probably about even (Wolves being a bit Jekyll and Hyde under JM).

Not having a dig at JM before people construe it that way as he has done very well and the signs are hopeful/promising and his big test is yet to come when his style of play completely takes over and he gets his own players in just thought the comparisons were interesting and not as black and white as a lot of people, especially the media, portray.

Not sure how you calculate statistics, but I make it in the 6 games under Marsch it's 8 goals conceded and 9 scored, Bielsa's last 6 games ; 21 goals conceded, 5 scored - 10 points scored by Marsch, 1 point by Bielsa. Apart from this, they are pretty similar....

And don't say it is due to Marsch playing inferior opposition when Bielsa managed to lose 3-0 to Everton and 0-1 to the barcodes.

It's quite amusing how some people contort facts in order to try and defend the indefensible.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Exactly. That's why my negative is about folk moaning even though we won 3-0. MY negative relating to the Watford v Leeds thread not this one

Better still, we won 0-3

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Positives - undefeated in 4 games, with 3 wins and a draw in that time, to yield 10 out of 12 points. This was unthinkable after Bielsa's last 6 games, which yielded one point and 21 goals conceded...

Negatives - some ' fans ' are resentful of Marsch and refuse to give him even a modicum of credit. Pathetic.

[weasel]

Not sure how you calculate statistics, but I make it in the 6 games under Marsch it's 8 goals conceded and 9 scored, Bielsa's last 6 games ; 15 goals conceded, 5 scored - 10 points scored by Marsch, 1 point by Bielsa. Apart from this, they are pretty similar....

And don't say it is due to Marsch playing inferior opposition when Bielsa managed to lose 3-0 to Everton and 0-1 to the barcodes.

It's quite amusing how some people contort facts in order to try and defend the indefensible.

It's sometimes hard to wonder if you are just thick or deliberate misinterpret the point for some sort of attention seeking.

I stated in the same 6 matches and even stated the opposition. I shall simplify for you or perhaps you can get someone with an IQ in 3 digits to help you.

Leicester - Bielsa 1-1, Marsch 0-1
Villa - Bielsa 3-3, Marsch 0-3
Norwich - Bielsa 2-1, Marsch 2-1
Wolves - Bielsa 1-1, Marsch 3-2
Southampton - Bielsa 0-1, Marsch 1-1
Watford - Bielsa 1-0, Marsch 3-0

Of course the quality of the opposition matters. Quality of players available matters too. My point was not to either praise MB or knock JM but just to point out how it isn't like the difference is as huge as it has been made out by some fans and a lot in the media, who's research is non existent. For Marsch to have done as well as he has is promising and thankfully the results have come, we will never know how we would have done under MB but one would expect at the very least we would have done better in that set of 6 fixtures than in the last 6 of MB's tenure as we have played, generally, lesser opposition and have had more of the important players available.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

It's sometimes hard to wonder if you are just thick or deliberate misinterpret the point for some sort of attention seeking.

I stated in the same 6 matches and even stated the opposition. I shall simplify for you or perhaps you can get someone with an IQ in 3 digits to help you.

Leicester - Bielsa 1-1, Marsch 0-1
Villa - Bielsa 3-3, Marsch 0-3
Norwich - Bielsa 2-1, Marsch 2-1
Wolves - Bielsa 1-1, Marsch 3-2
Southampton - Bielsa 0-1, Marsch 1-1
Watford - Bielsa 1-0, Marsch 3-0

Of course the quality of the opposition matters. Quality of players available matters too. My point was not to either praise MB or knock JM but just to point out how it isn't like the difference is as huge as it has been made out by some fans and a lot in the media, who's research is non existent. For Marsch to have done as well as he has is promising and thankfully the results have come, we will never know how we would have done under MB but one would expect at the very least we would have done better in that set of 6 fixtures than in the last 6 of MB's tenure as we have played, generally, lesser opposition and have had more of the important players available.

Funny how the Bielsa fans always resort to personal insults. I will just ignore this aspect, as you probably don't realise that it just weakens your argument. If you can't debate properly then just throw in the personal insults instead for good measure in order to bolster the argument....Another ' Bielsa fan ' has already called me a 'dickhead 'today on here which YS picked him up on. It's the same syndrome though - if in doubt, resort to personal insults.

So you believe that Everton and Newcastle were quality opposition no doubt ?

You miss the point that Bielsa's regime was in total free fall when he was sacked, and if his tactics including man to man marking put out a team capable of capitulating 3-0 to Everton then it's quite feasible that he would have lost to all the teams that you made the comparison with.

[William]

Not "all" Bielsa haters are idiots.....

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Not "all" Bielsa haters are idiots.....

Post reported given that you were ticked off by YS earlier today yet you are still dishing out the personal insults.

Funny how being critical of someone in the public eye purely in relation to their professional capacity is called ' hating ' in today's world. ' 'Hate ' is what you are seeing in Ukraine.

[Carrick Dave]

Chapel, you appear more fixated on Bielsa than any other single poster.

You seem more focused on telling “Bielsa fans” at every opportunity that you were right and they were wrong, bending the stats to suit - schoolboy stuff. Na na na na na.

The rest of us can accept he’s gone and move on but not you, and you call others pathetic and boring.

No matter how many times you or others claim otherwise, Leeds fans who have followed the club for decades are Leeds fans in the end, the managers change.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Chapel, you appear more fixated on Bielsa than any other single poster.

You seem more focused on telling “Bielsa fans” at every opportunity that you were right and they were wrong, bending the stats to suit - schoolboy stuff. Na na na na na.

The rest of us can accept he’s gone and move on but not you, and you call others pathetic and boring.

No matter how many times you or others claim otherwise, Leeds fans who have followed the club for decades are Leeds fans in the end, the managers change.

What I don't like is the negativity directed towards Marsch by some which logically can only be down to sour grapes.' Bielsa would not have had us playing in such a boring way ' etc Or endless posts about ' Bert ' etc. In which case how can the subject of Bielsa be ignored ?

Watching MOTD an interview with Jack Harrison let the cat out of the bag when he made the comment ' the players are enjoying their football now ' He quickly realised what he had said and backtracked a little by then making the comment ' not that we didn't before ' but I think his unguarded comment spoke volumes.

[Jaydog]

Positives: winning 3-0 when you shouldn’t have
Negatives: people that are negative when you win 3-0 when you shouldn’t have

[Carrick Dave]

What I don't like is the negativity directed towards Marsch by some which logically can only be down to sour grapes.' Bielsa would not have had us playing in such a boring way ' etc Or endless posts about ' Bert ' etc. In which case how can the subject of Bielsa be ignored ?

Watching MOTD an interview with Jack Harrison let the cat out of the bag when he made the comment ' the players are enjoying their football now ' He quickly realised what he had said and backtracked a little by then making the comment ' not that we didn't before ' but I think his unguarded comment spoke volumes.

Most Bielsa fans agree that Marsch has done well - no acknowledgement from you as it doesn’t suit the agenda. It just looks sad now.

[weasel]

Funny how the Bielsa fans always resort to personal insults. I will just ignore this aspect, as you probably don't realise that it just weakens your argument. If you can't debate properly then just throw in the personal insults instead for good measure in order to bolster the argument....Another ' Bielsa fan ' has already called me a 'dickhead 'today on here which YS picked him up on. It's the same syndrome though - if in doubt, resort to personal insults.

So you believe that Everton and Newcastle were quality opposition no doubt ?

You miss the point that Bielsa's regime was in total free fall when he was sacked, and if his tactics including man to man marking put out a team capable of capitulating 3-0 to Everton then it's quite feasible that he would have lost to all the teams that you made the comparison with.

Not a personal insult it was a question, although I note you failed to answer it. Similarly you dismiss any arguments that you don't agree with by either ignoring them or bringing up something else that isn't relevant, Are you Boris Johnson because that is your style of arguing/debating/answering to informed questions.

The point about freefall is relvant, since you brought it up - I didn't and as I have already stated we will never know how we would have done if Bielsa was still in charge, and JM's points return is very good. Bielsa's same tactics that you mock saw us finish 9th in the league last season so hardly like it as been proven they can't work. Our 3-0 reverse to Everton was poor, our 1-0 defeat to Newcastle was a decent performance but poor finishing and a keeper mistake cost us - however they are irrelevant to the point I was making as is your way. I could also point out that JM has face 6 matches of which 4 have been against teams in the bottom half (inclduing the 2 bottom teams) and the others were against the teams 8th and 10th so a comparision against our overall season's stats or stats from the previous 6 matches are irrelevant, but you know that as I am hopeful you are not an idiot.

I find it a shame you cannot respect Bielsa for what he did for the club and the city. My respect for Bielsa doesn't make any difference to how I view Marsch so I don't know why you feel the need to insult Bielsa when you praise Marsch. I used the 6 matches managed by both Bielsa and Marsch merely as an example that it isn't like Marsch has come in and invented the wheel and why I am cautiously optimistic rather than performing naked cartwheels due to my unbridled joy.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Most Bielsa fans agree that Marsch has done well - no acknowledgement from you as it doesn’t suit the agenda. It just looks sad now.

Believe you me, I would be happy to move on and never have to think about Bielsa again.

[weasel]

Positives: winning 3-0 when you shouldn’t have
Negatives: people that are negative when you win 3-0 when you shouldn’t have

But that is the point of this thread, as I mentioned earlier. To find a balance and hopefully find positives in defeat but also to not get too carried aay by a win. Sometimes a win can mask deficiences and sometimes a great perfromance can still end in a loss.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Not a personal insult it was a question, although I note you failed to answer it. Similarly you dismiss any arguments that you don't agree with by either ignoring them or bringing up something else that isn't relevant, Are you Boris Johnson because that is your style of arguing/debating/answering to informed questions.

The point about freefall is a relvance, since you brought it up - I didn't and as I have already stated we will never know how we would have done if Bielsa was still in charge, and JM's points return is very good. Bielsa's same tactics that you mock saw us finish 9th in the league last season so hardly like it as been proven they can't work. Our 3-0 reverse to Everton was poor, our 1-0 defeat to Newcastle was a decent performance but poor finishing and a keeper mistake cost us - however they are irrelevant to the point I was making as is your way. I could also point out that JM has face 6 matches of which 4 have been against teams in the bottom half (inclduing the 2 bottom teams) and the others were against the teams 8th and 10th so a comparision against our overall season's stats or stats from the previous 6 matches are irrelevant, but you know that as I am hopeful you are not an idiot.

I find it a shame you cannot respect Bielsa for what he did for the club and the city. My respect for Bielsa doesn't make any difference to how I view Marsch so I don't know why you feel the need to insult Bielsa when you praise Marsch. I used the 6 matches managed by both Bielsa and Marsch merely as an example that it isn't like Marsch has come in and invented the wheel and why I am cautiously optimistic rather than performing naked cartwheels due to my unbridled joy.

As regards ' mocking ' Bielsa's tactics, I will just refer you to the comments of the numerous pundits, including Lineker, who after a Leeds match a few weeks ago made the comment ' man marking has never worked in the history of football. ' In fact the club was being mocked in the media after the embarrassing thrashings this season. Read some of the mocking comments of the MUFC fans after Bielsa was sacked - quoting all the recent massacres etc, and making sarcastic comments such as ' thanks for the memories. '

On the subject of ' hate ' I will not call Reds fans ' scum.'

[Jaydog]

But that is the point of this thread, as I mentioned earlier. To find a balance and hopefully find positives in defeat but also to not get too carried aay by a win. Sometimes a win can mask deficiences and sometimes a great perfromance can still end in a loss.

Oh god no, not getting carried away at all. Too long suffering for that. I just feel a great sense of relief after today.
I think the pressure was on big time and that does weird things to people.
And I totally agree, a forum is exactly that but reading some stuff on here you wouldn’t think it would you. Balanced doesn’t spring to mind.

[Carrick Dave]

Believe you me, I would be happy to move on and never have to think about Bielsa again.

Go for it then, you’re the one who keeps bringing him up.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Go for it then, you’re the one who keeps bringing him up.

Really ? So after a 0-3 win with a new manager, we have a comment from Weasel which went ;

Ah fair enough. I will be honest the football isn't as pleasing as it was when we were playing well under Bielsa but at this stage of the season it is all about 3 points no matter how we get them. We rode our luck today in that second half but had the quality when it mattered.

Followed by a Loooong analysis by Weasel of BIelsa's record versus Marsch's in the games which we have played recently under Marsch.

Yet nobody else is allowed to comment on those posts in case it brings up the taboo subject of Marcelo Bielsa....

[YorkshireSquare]

Come on guys, rigorous debate is fine but let's try not to make it personal.

To quote the great Michael Caine in The Italian Job; “Well, look happy you stupid bastards ! We won, didn't we.”

[Carrick Dave]

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Ok, your obsession with Bielsa is all Weasel’s fault then.