Jesse Marsch

[Kennyb41]

Oh ffs here we go again.

No, the whole world caving in was. Including the entire debt of Venezuela.

[Kennyb41]

I wonder if your man “Bert” had anything to do with that situation Kenny?

Fck me you whinge like a baby and disappear down your burrow for weeks, then come back launching grenades.

Welcome back you've been sadly missed.

By the sad that is.

[Cjay]

Not a single one of you banging on about the lack of style, identity, width, or whatever else have reacted to this post match quote from Jesse Marsch yesterday. So I'll quote it again here.

"It's been a band-aid project more than a project about style and identity,"

Do you just suppose it's an indication that JM has not been able to really implement his football ideas yet? And that survival was the ONLY priority? Hmm....Perhaps we should take a moment and consider the possibility that everything you think you know about how the team will play going forward might be wrong.

I would have responded but I didn't see it

I think it's an indication that he was unable to implement his ideas fully on a squad that anyone can see was totally unsuited to it (which is why he really shouldn't have been given the job mid season in the first place, an extremely large risk). That isn't his fault.

He did try to.

We saw it when we went very narrow and it simply didn't work offensively (hence why we struggled to score goals).

But vs Brentford and Brighton especially he adapted it a bit. Allowed a kind of Bielsa/Marsch hybrid which suited the players more.

We saw in with the Raphinha goal, Raph started quite wide more akin to his Bielsa position but would come narrow at times to aid the press which is what caused the error for the penalty.

I have serious doubts about whether his style will work at the top level.

It didn't really work in the Bundesliga or Premier League for him or his mentor Ralf Rangnick. Having looked at them his style is very close to what Rangnick preaches.

What concerns me is that it's possible that there may be a hint of the Bielsa about Rangnick.

An influential tactician whose tactics whilst brilliant are deeply flawed in practice and as such the key to making it work is taking the best bits from it and using your own ideas to remove the worst bits.

Like people like Simeone, Poch, Pep etc did.

They took the best of BielsaBall but adapted it to make it more workable and ultimately successful which is something Bielsa acknowledged himself.

However the person whose stayed closest to BielsaBall is Jorge Sampaoli whose by quite a long way the least successful of Bielsa's most well known disciples and is a bit of a journeyman whose never really found much long term success.

Now is Marsch going to be Rangnick's Sampaoli?

Is his inability to adapt his mentors tactics to a more workable and successful style going to lead to him underachieving where his fellow disciples have managed to adapt and thrive?

Hope this makes sense

[Byebyegeegee]

Fck me you whinge like a baby and disappear down your burrow for weeks, then come back launching grenades.

Welcome back you've been sadly missed.

By the sad that is.

Perhaps I might have made it appear a little less sarcastic Kenny, no need to stoop to insults, humour me it’s my birthday. I was genuinely hoping for a proper engagement from you giving your thoughts on the matter. I thought with that comment you were actually starting to see the wood from the trees, starting to see beyond your rose tinted specs!. Can I take it then that you still believe the situation inherited by Marsch was none of Bielsa’s making?

[Kennyb41]

Perhaps I might have made it appear a little less sarcastic Kenny, no need to stoop to insults, humour me it’s my birthday. I was genuinely hoping for a proper engagement from you giving your thoughts on the matter. I thought with that comment you were actually starting to see the wood from the trees, starting to see beyond your rose tinted specs!. Can I take it then that you still believe the situation inherited by Marsch was none of Bielsa’s making?

Happy Birthday.

Yes.

He has a couple of minor communication faults due to his Aspergers, but is still God at.... ' we'll score more than you'.

[BlackHillsPaul]

I would have responded but I didn't see it

I think it's an indication that he was unable to implement his ideas fully on a squad that anyone can see was totally unsuited to it (which is why he really shouldn't have been given the job mid season in the first place, an extremely large risk). That isn't his fault.

He did try to.

We saw it when we went very narrow and it simply didn't work offensively (hence why we struggled to score goals).

But vs Brentford and Brighton especially he adapted it a bit. Allowed a kind of Bielsa/Marsch hybrid which suited the players more.

We saw in with the Raphinha goal, Raph started quite wide more akin to his Bielsa position but would come narrow at times to aid the press which is what caused the error for the penalty.

I have serious doubts about whether his style will work at the top level.

It didn't really work in the Bundesliga or Premier League for him or his mentor Ralf Rangnick. Having looked at them his style is very close to what Rangnick preaches.

What concerns me is that it's possible that there may be a hint of the Bielsa about Rangnick.

An influential tactician whose tactics whilst brilliant are deeply flawed in practice and as such the key to making it work is taking the best bits from it and using your own ideas to remove the worst bits.

Like people like Simeone, Poch, Pep etc did.

They took the best of BielsaBall but adapted it to make it more workable and ultimately successful which is something Bielsa acknowledged himself.

However the person whose stayed closest to BielsaBall is Jorge Sampaoli whose by quite a long way the least successful of Bielsa's most well known disciples and is a bit of a journeyman whose never really found much long term success.

Now is Marsch going to be Rangnick's Sampaoli?

Is his inability to adapt his mentors tactics to a more workable and successful style going to lead to him underachieving where his fellow disciples have managed to adapt and thrive?

Hope this makes sense

Good post Cjay!! I always appreciate it when people take the time to offer some meaningful analysis. You have made some good points. I think it's too early to say that JM will be a pure disciple of anyone. His major mentors have been Bob Bradley and Ralf Rangnick. But he doesn't play exactly like either in my view. He has his own ideas. And has shown a willingness to change things over his first 12 matches at Leeds. Out of necessity/desperation no doubt. We will have to wait and see how exactly he wants his side to play next season.

Here is some food for thought. This is Jesse's first time outside of the Red Bull family of clubs since his very first season as a Manager in Montreal. Not having to play the "Red Bull way" may also allow him some creative license he might not have had in the past. I'm as interested as anyone to see how this plays out. Cheers!!!

[weasel]

I would have responded but I didn't see it

I think it's an indication that he was unable to implement his ideas fully on a squad that anyone can see was totally unsuited to it (which is why he really shouldn't have been given the job mid season in the first place, an extremely large risk). That isn't his fault.

He did try to.

We saw it when we went very narrow and it simply didn't work offensively (hence why we struggled to score goals).

But vs Brentford and Brighton especially he adapted it a bit. Allowed a kind of Bielsa/Marsch hybrid which suited the players more.

We saw in with the Raphinha goal, Raph started quite wide more akin to his Bielsa position but would come narrow at times to aid the press which is what caused the error for the penalty.

I have serious doubts about whether his style will work at the top level.

It didn't really work in the Bundesliga or Premier League for him or his mentor Ralf Rangnick. Having looked at them his style is very close to what Rangnick preaches.

What concerns me is that it's possible that there may be a hint of the Bielsa about Rangnick.

An influential tactician whose tactics whilst brilliant are deeply flawed in practice and as such the key to making it work is taking the best bits from it and using your own ideas to remove the worst bits.

Like people like Simeone, Poch, Pep etc did.

They took the best of BielsaBall but adapted it to make it more workable and ultimately successful which is something Bielsa acknowledged himself.

However the person whose stayed closest to BielsaBall is Jorge Sampaoli whose by quite a long way the least successful of Bielsa's most well known disciples and is a bit of a journeyman whose never really found much long term success.

Now is Marsch going to be Rangnick's Sampaoli?

Is his inability to adapt his mentors tactics to a more workable and successful style going to lead to him underachieving where his fellow disciples have managed to adapt and thrive?

Hope this makes sense

Excellent post Cjay and the hope is that both our team and MU's were unable to adapt to tactics that may actually work but were sort of bad fits at the time. I doubt Klopp, Pep or Bielsa would have been able to do well at MU (admittedly they would all have done better than Rangnick).

The point about our hybrid team reminds me of a post I made recently asking whether performances had gotten worse over time under Marsch - basically had they got worse as we went more towards Marsch's tactics and away from Bielsa's. The Leicester performance, in Marsch's first match in charge, was probably our best performance under Marsch but wa salso our most Bielsa like performance. I do feel we then went more towards Marsch's preferred tactic but then edged back towards playing a bit more how we were used to hence the hybrid.

MU aren't a pressing side and players like Pogba, Fernandes and Ronaldo are used to other players doing the donkey work for them. It is hard to really read too mcuh into Rangniek's time there albeit it was shockingly poor.

Hopefully in our first match of next season we will see Marsch's tactics in full flow and it will blow us away like Bielsa's firs match, v Stoke, did.

[weasel]

If he's got that in his locker, we've seen nothing to indicate it so far. I think he's a bluffer personally; someone who has risen within the confines of the red bull system, and despite having failed to convince there, now has a position which is beyond him, and where he is out of his depth. I would love to be proved wrong, but I can't see it happening.

I couldn't have put it better myself and likewise hope to be proved wrong.

[John in Louisiana]

This makes no sense at all. If it's a 'band-aid project', surely you don't attempt to change the style of the team with twelve games left to one that patently doesn't suit the players….

Something had to change. We were bloody awful in February. Not changing would have been the very definition of insanity.

I will reserve judgment on his style of play until I have had an opportunity to see what it really is; after he’s had an opportunity to put together a group of players with whom he’s comfortable and had a chance to work with them. Marsch has only been able to cobble together a patchwork to this point.

Thrilled he was able to keep us up. I think that’s earned him the benefit of the doubt.

[March712]

Something had to change. We were bloody awful in February. Not changing would have been the very definition of insanity.

I will reserve judgment on his style of play until I have had an opportunity to see what it really is; after he’s had an opportunity to put together a group of players with whom he’s comfortable and had a chance to work with them. Marsch has only been able to cobble together a patchwork to this point.

Thrilled he was able to keep us up. I think that’s earned him the benefit of the doubt.

Totally agree...FFS, give the guy a chance; then we can all make a considered judgement.

[BlackHillsPaul]

This makes no sense at all. If it's a 'band-aid project', surely you don't attempt to change the style of the team with twelve games left to one that patently doesn't suit the players at your disposal. That is my biggest criticism of Marsch; that the more he imposed his own approach, the more he nullified the strengths we previously had, particularly in attack.

Firstly, I don't believe his style is likely to be successful in the premier league; secondly I doubt his judgment and understanding of his players in trying to make these changes during a relegation battle; and thirdly I fear that building the squad to suit Marsch's style will seriously set us back when it doesn't work and he has to be replaced partway through the season.

I've seen nothing to suggest he's capable of taking us forward, and I would far rather we parted company now and brought in someone with more experience and tactical ability.

This isn't analysis. It's pure emotion coming from a grieving supporter of the former Manager....I get it.

[weasel]

This isn't analysis. It's pure emotion coming from a grieving supporter of the former Manager....I get it.

That comes accross as very condescending towards Sara. It is analysis and highlighting concerns, which she, I, and others hope will not happen.

If we take the points Sara raised:

1 ) Changing the style to one not suited to the players was risky. Big Sam and others do it but they have a lot of practise of doing it so almost know exactly what will work, even if just temporarily. JM had not been in a relegation battle or managed in the premier league so it was a huge risk - yes it made sense to try to tighten up defensively at the expense of the attacking but it was still a risk given that the team was built to create more chances than the opposition with the esxpectation that if you keep doing that you will win more than you lose (and even in the last match before Marsch came in we created more chances than Spurs despite losing 4-0. Thankfully we stayed up so in that sense it worked. It is not a case of saying that Bielsa's style is better than Marsch style (which we should see next season properly) just that it was a risk. Equally a risk to not change anything, so a risk either way.

2) There is doubt over whether Marsch's way of playing can be successful in the Premier League. Southampton ended the season in freefall and similarly Man U were awful under RR. So the two managers who play a similar style have had very disappointing results with it. That's not emotion, again nothing to do with Marsch's predecessor but all about concern over the future eightened by the failings of Marsch's contemporaries.

3) Building the squad to suit the manager. We have seen how bad that goes wrong with our bloated squad prior to Bielsa's arrival where we had players from one manager not wanted by the next. We see now that we may have wingers that we may not need, Bielsa loved wingers and seemingly Marsch doesn't so straightaway it shows what happens if Marsch leaves and a new manager comes in who then might like wingers.This would be a concern no matter who the manager was and for me isn't something that is a criticism of Marsch but more at Orta who has brought in Marsch and would have been a criticism if they'd brought any other manager in with a different style - and we saw it already with Orta and Radz who brought in Christiansen who played one way and then Heckingbottom who played a totally different way and then Bielsa who was again completely opposite to Heckingbottom.

Don't confuse emotions with valid concerns or dismiss someone's opinion just because they liked a manager who is 1 of only 5 managers who won a trophy with the club.

[BlackHillsPaul]

That comes accross as very condescending towards Sara. It is analysis and highlighting concerns, which she, I, and others hope will not happen.

Nope! She made her observations and I made mine. And I suspect that Sara is strong enough to defend herself and make her own arguments. She doesn't need a big strong Weasel like you to defend her. Or to tell me what she thinks. Now THAT is truly condescending...

[Kennyb41]

Some great posts to wake up to, i don't know which one to use as a quote i honestly could've quoted them all in a response.

The biggest thing is Jesse obviously tried to implement his 'style' in some games and we were gash, which although understandable in part, is worrying. Now that also obviously changed thank god at what seems to have been the key times, i hope it was Jesse that said ' look this isn't working yet, we need time we don't have so let's go back to basics'

And not the boyz taking it among themselves, if i'm honest i think it would've been an all round decision, Manager, staff and players.

And if that's the case it's a whole new argument whether that's good or bad going forward, too many cooks n all that.

Or in your case my American friend, too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

[March712]

The performances and tactics have been horrific, and scraping survival due to the failure of others shouldn't be allowed to gloss over that. That is my considered judgment.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but the performances and tactics under the previous incumbent were horrific too.

[Kennyb41]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but the performances and tactics under the previous incumbent were horrific too.

Far from hysterical Sara.

Oh ffs March dya really wanna re ignite all this shyte again. YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR FCKING ARSE FROM YOUR ELBOW IF YOU CAN'T SEE BERTS REASONS THAT LED TO HIS PREMATURE EXIT !...HE HAD A BAD FCKING FEBRUARY, END OF.

Are we still gonna compare him ??? Coz up to now Bert leaves this new man for dead.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

The reason that Marsch is disliked is that he plays football that is horrible to watch, and despite the results gained, we haven't put in a single convincing performance under him.

The best we've looked are the Leicester game and Brentford, the two in which we stayed the closest to our previous system, playing with width. The more Marsch has tried to impose his narrow 4222, the worse we have looked, as it nullifies our best players in Phillips and Raphinha.

To come in with twelve games to go and tinker with the system as he has has just created confusion in the players, who've never looked like they knew what they were supposed to be doing.

We've stayed up by the skin of our teeth despite Marsch, not because of him. Anyone thinking his motivational schtick is a substitute for proper coaching and tactical nous is going to be disappointed.

The idea that he is disliked for being American, or for 'political' reasons, is absolute drivel. He talks too much, and most of what he says doesn't correspond to what's happening on the pitch. He'd do better to tone down the self-promotion, and start looking like he knows how to set up a team and get the best out of his players.

Well there is a double page article today in the YEP entitled ' Marsch hits out at the prejudice in the UK media '

It starts with ;

' Jesse Marsch has hit out at prejudice he says he has faced simply for being an American since taking over at LUFC '

It then goes on ;

"He believes that whilst some of the treatment he has had as an American in the English game is based on what happens on the pitch, he has experienced a form of prejudice. "

" I said from the beginning there's a lot more horrible things happening in the world than me being ridiculed for my accent or being American " he said. " We can call it whatever you want, xenophobia or whatever, but it's a form of prejudice. Some people don't allow that kind of behaviour to happen, and will treat me based on what I am or what our team is, that's ultimately what it should be. "

[March712]

Far from hysterical Sara.

Oh ffs March dya really wanna re ignite all this shyte again. YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR FCKING ARSE FROM YOUR ELBOW IF YOU CAN'T SEE BERTS REASONS THAT LED TO HIS PREMATURE EXIT !...HE HAD A BAD FCKING FEBRUARY, END OF.

Are we still gonna compare him ??? Coz up to now Bert leaves this new man for dead.

Don't shout, you are keeping me awake...YAWN.

[1964white]

HE HAD A BAD FCKING FEBRUARY, END OF

So what about August, September & December?

5 wins in 26 games by the end of February

[1964white]

Maybe it's not the country you come from, Jesse, maybe it's because you spout total bollocks, and you never stfu. Just a thought.

Respect your opinion Sara, but I disagree.