The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Friday 17th June) - Roca set to be unveiled as Leeds United player

[weasel]

Well I wouldn't take the reverse fixtures as the basis of comparison. It's not really the like for like that you might assume it to be. Some of those reverse fixtures were played fairly early in the season, however in Bielsa's last 12 games there had already been a big shift for the worst in terms of the confidence of the players and the general morale within the team. Defensively the team fell off the edge of a cliff in some of those 12 games. So you have to look at games played after the rot had already set in as a basis for comparison.

Therefore I think it's a more valid comparison to compare Bielsa's last 12 games with Marsch's 12 games in charge - especially as in terms of the difficulty of the range of teams that either manager faced in those games was fairly even. Of course as Aussie pointed out, Bielsa had been working with a lot of the players for 3.5 seasons already when he started his last 12 games in charge, plus 4 summers - so even then it's not really a level playing field in terms of a basis for comparison.

Okay you're right. How silly of me to suggest comparing results from both managers against the likes of Watford and Norwich was a fairer way than comparing how we did against Liverpool and Spurs under Bielsa to against Watford and Norwich under Marsch.

As i have mentioned above though the fixtures are by and large irrelevant as it was more down to the players available.

[weasel]

Really, Leon? If you read half the comments on here, you'd be forgiven for thinking he was on a par with Evans or Hockaday. The wheels came off in season 4 and a change was needed, undoubtedly, but too many are happy to trash everything MB did with us. Without him, we're still scrabbling around in the Championship (Pep put it better than I could). The club has moved on, I've moved on and hope JM is a huge success but this rush by some to taint and demerit everything Bielsa did leaves a bad taste for me.

Well said. The continued digs on here are disgusting. Yes the wheels fell off to a large degree last season but isn't it interesting how so many fans are claiming we need a much stronger team we had.

[weasel]

You deserve a medal for some of the shite you'll have watched over the years, Leon, I bet you thought you'd died and gone to football nirvana the first time you saw a Bielsa team turn it on?

I hope we don't look back on those days in a few years time and wonder if we will ever see the like of it again. Hoping that Marsch can have us playing some good football and getting the club moving forward again - or that if he fails the club gets rid quickly and get someone in who can. The success ratio of managerial appointments so far suggest we could turn into a Watford.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Okay you're right. How silly of me to suggest comparing results from both managers against the likes of Watford and Norwich was a fairer way than comparing how we did against Liverpool and Spurs under Bielsa to against Watford and Norwich under Marsch.

As i have mentioned above though the fixtures are by and large irrelevant as it was more down to the players available.

Can't you ever debate anything without that nasty scathing sarcasm creeping in ? For a moment I thought you had gained a bit of maturity and were debating like an adult rather than a petulant child.

[Siqu]

Sorry to interrupt this battle and return to the title of the topic but just to say, bit concerned Roca was let go so easily by bayern, and the mention of playing with firpo, who we know has massively gone downhill after that incredible start for spain.
It all seems to be about a cheap replacement for an immenent departyre of our local man kalvin.
Hope im very wrong. But if it was lalvin or roca? Im happier with kal.

In other news id love to see zinchenko come up the m62, but i cant see it happening.

[CanuckMightyWhite]

Sorry to interrupt this battle and return to the title of the topic but just to say, bit concerned Roca was let go so easily by bayern, and the mention of playing with firpo, who we know has massively gone downhill after that incredible start for spain.
It all seems to be about a cheap replacement for an immenent departyre of our local man kalvin.
Hope im very wrong. But if it was lalvin or roca? Im happier with kal.

In other news id love to see zinchenko come up the m62, but i cant see it happening.

Roca is not here to replace KP, there will be another should he be sold.
We, as a club, are not in a position yet to be targeting PL proven players unless they are at the fag end of their careers. We will have to take a punt at resurrecting some careers. Roca seems to fit the bill, and we hope our scouts are doing their jobs well.

Zinchenko wants to play MF for a CL or Europe chasing team, by narrowly escaping relegation we just won’t attract the likes of him.

[Byebyegeegee]

Really, Leon? If you read half the comments on here, you'd be forgiven for thinking he was on a par with Evans or Hockaday. The wheels came off in season 4 and a change was needed, undoubtedly, but too many are happy to trash everything MB did with us. Without him, we're still scrabbling around in the Championship (Pep put it better than I could). The club has moved on, I've moved on and hope JM is a huge success but this rush by some to taint and demerit everything Bielsa did leaves a bad taste for me.

This is incorrect in my opinion. You’ve said it yourself, “the wheels came off in season 4 and change was needed”, nobody is trashing everything Marcelo Bielsa did, nobody, as far as I’ve seen, has equated him with Evans or Hockaday. Everybody on this forum and supporters in general, I’m sure, are extremely grateful for what Bielsa did for Leeds United. Creating, almost out of nothing, 3 years of excitement, dynamic football and unforgettable memories, with a promotion to the promised land thrown in for good measure; no, nobody is denying Bielsa’s overall success.

But there is also no doubt that the team had got to a point, this season, where a change in tactics was needed, the great man seemed reluctant to do it and the rest is history. No recriminations, no belittling of his achievements, just an evaluation of why the change was necessary and then, as you say, most of us move on.

[Kennyb41]

I hasten to add that a lot here were obviously too blindedly stupid to the obvious and too quick to ask for his removal after some unbelievable football from some trash players for 4 years, which sadly faultered when the 3 key players to his system were out and combined with other factors beyond his control left him pissing against the wind in a force 8 gale.

And as a result we are back in the lap of the gods very similar to the days pre Bert and could potentially become another Watford.

But hey ! s**t happens and some may reap what they deserve, and we're in the safe hands of a clown and a totally unproven manager.

Such is life., and the vast majority will soon be wishing they hadn't opened their gobs.

Must dash.

[1964white]

I hasten to add that a lot here were obviously too blindedly stupid to the obvious and too quick to ask for his removal after some unbelievable football from some trash players for 4 years, which sadly faultered when the 3 key players to his system were out and combined with other factors beyond his control left him pissing against the wind in a force 8 gale.

And as a result we are back in the lap of the gods very similar to the days pre Bert and could potentially become another Watford.

But hey ! s**t happens and some may reap what they deserve, and we're in the safe hands of a clown and a totally unproven manager.

Such is life., and the vast majority will soon be wishing they hadn't opened their gobs.

Must dash.

Are you copy & pasting your posts, Kennyb?

[Scoobychief]

I hasten to add that a lot here were obviously too blindedly stupid to the obvious and too quick to ask for his removal after some unbelievable football from some trash players for 4 years, which sadly faultered when the 3 key players to his system were out and combined with other factors beyond his control left him pissing against the wind in a force 8 gale.

And as a result we are back in the lap of the gods very similar to the days pre Bert and could potentially become another Watford.

But hey ! s**t happens and some may reap what they deserve, and we're in the safe hands of a clown and a totally unproven manager.

Such is life., and the vast majority will soon be wishing they hadn't opened their gobs.

Must dash.

Youv'e got to move on from Bert now, the divorce happened, move on.

[Overman]

Are you copy & pasting your posts, Kennyb?

That's far too clever for him, however he did reply to one of his own posts before validating it.

[Overman]

Youv'e got to move on from Bert now, the divorce happened, move on.

They really can't move on all this diatribe about Bielsa to the point of it being obsessive and nauseating. Jack Duckworth has left the building, he's getting on with own life and sure I'm he couldn't a f**k now.

[Kennyb41]

H'mmm, nauseating (said Homer style)

Must dash.

[weasel]

Youv'e got to move on from Bert now, the divorce happened, move on.

Think it was Chapel who brought up the Bielsa/Marsch debate with some regurgitated gash. Kenneth and my good self merely replying so that Bielsa doesn't continue to have his good name besmirched by those who are a sad reflection on this club.

[The Subhuman]

It’s the Bielsa haters keeping this going…. If they keep posting s**t expect some response from the reasonable Leeds fan

[Byebyegeegee]

“Bielsa haters”!!

Nobody on this forum has ever said or implied that they hate Bielsa, that is a ridiculous exaggeration, and not untypical of your usual censorious and inflammatory comments. As I’ve said above most fans loved Bielsa and still love him for what he achieved at Leeds, and those who couldn’t bring themselves to love him would certainly have admired him.

There have been discussions and opinions expressed regarding the reasons for his sacking but just because some fans were in favour of a change at that particular juncture, when it looked as though the team were heading for relegation, doesn’t mean they hated or hate Bielsa.

Who, exactly, are you referring to when you casually use the term “Bielsa haters” and can you point to a comment where someone has specifically expressed that emotion?

No! Thought not, so please stop trying to be so provocative.

[Siqu]

Roca is not here to replace KP, there will be another should he be sold.
We, as a club, are not in a position yet to be targeting PL proven players unless they are at the fag end of their careers. We will have to take a punt at resurrecting some careers. Roca seems to fit the bill, and we hope our scouts are doing their jobs well.

Zinchenko wants to play MF for a CL or Europe chasing team, by narrowly escaping relegation we just won’t attract the likes of him.

Class for trash deals.
Lets see what happens with the kp cash