The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Kennyb41 »

Yeah, certain players definitely thrive better and worse under certain managers and their systems and roles.

Forget his age, but could Ronaldo perform better than PB as a lone striker in Berts 4-1-4-1 ?

I don't think so.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by SaraM »

Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:49 am At RB Salzburg.

All of them were young, some just teenagers.

Karim Adeyemi was only 17/18, I suppose was maybe like Gelhardt, Marsch gave him his debut and then made him a regular the following season.

2 years they worked together.

Daka and Szoboszlai were already part of the Salzburg first team picture but were only bit partners.

Daka was 21 and had only scored 3 league goals before Marsch and by the time he left it was over 50.

Szoboszlai was 18/19 when Marsch arrived and similar to Daka was only a bit parter.

Under Marsch he became a key player managing double figures in league goals and assists.

Enoch Mwepu was similar to Daka, similar age, similar circumstances. Marsch made all of them first team regulars and worked with them for 2 years roughly except for Szoboszlai who went to Leipzig and had another 6 months or so with Marsch.

He only worked with Haaland for 6 months as Erling said but clearly had enough of an impact on him for Haaland to go public with there relationship.

He gave Luka Sucic his debut when he was 17/18 and gave him chances, not massive minutes but it was his start in first team football.

He also gave Sesko his debut when he was 16/17.

Only worked with the last 2 for 12 months or so but still gave them a chance at a very young age.

Tyler Adams Marsch gave him his debut when he was just 16 and they worked together for 3 years until Adams left for Leipzig and then they worked together again whilst Marsch was there similar to Szoboszlai.

So for most of them atleast 2 years including making them first team regulars when they were barely out of there teens or not in some cases.

He was giving debuts to 16,17,18 year olds.

You can't work for the Red Bull network if you don't develop players, it's there entire strategy.

And Marsch did help develop many of them.

Haven't included Kristensen or Nicolas Siewald or Brenden Aaronson or Mo Camara or others who were regular under Marsch at Salzburg whilst fitting the late teen very early 20s criteria.

Of the 17 players who played 25 games atleast under Marsch in his last season at Salzburg 11 were 22 or younger.

It's the one area imo he can't really be criticised as its probably the one area he is actually more successful than Bielsa.

His faith in youth.
I've never watched those players, and can't really evaluate what you're saying just based on appearance stats.

What I have seen is Bielsa take unpopular second division players and turn them into sought after internationals through his rigorous training methods.

I've also seen Marsch criticize those methods in favour of a pop psychology 'feelgood' approach. I'll remain unconvinced until I see clear progression on the pitch.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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For what it's worth...I'm not convinced bielsa was good for our actual youth players...in fact the young players who came through under him were only ever really given a chance to play when he had no other players to play in that position rather than actively being given a chance by Bielsa.

Struijk only really played when there were no other senior options...

Meslier only came through when casilla was suspended despite him making numerous mistakes...

Gelhardt only really given a chance when paddy and James were out...

Others like a summerville etc. barely given a sniff...

Obviously he developed young players already in the first team a lot...like kp
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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weasel wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:02 pm It is still very subjective though cos if the roster (or squad for our non american posters) at Salzburg say had 30 players and 20 of them were aged 22 years or younger then as a manager you don't have much choice but to play them. Contrast that with the squad that Bielsa and Marsch have had at Leeds then there are considerably less younger players at their disposal and as such by simple maths you can't play as many.
But that's the whole Red Bull philosophy anyway.

You don't work for them if you don't develop players, tiz my point.

Bielsa was on record for preferring older players over youth.

That's the difference.

Tactics, unproven, all that is a fair concern with Marsch.

Faith in youth I have 0 concerns.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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danhirons wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:14 pm For what it's worth...I'm not convinced bielsa was good for our actual youth players...in fact the young players who came through under him were only ever really given a chance to play when he had no other players to play in that position rather than actively being given a chance by Bielsa.

Struijk only really played when there were no other senior options...

Meslier only came through when casilla was suspended despite him making numerous mistakes...

Gelhardt only really given a chance when paddy and James were out...

Others like a summerville etc. barely given a sniff...

Obviously he developed young players already in the first team a lot...like kp
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Irish Ian »

Well if you use the metric of playing time only you discount about 90% of what a manager does to improve players.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Irish Ian wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:39 pm Well if you use the metric of playing time only you discount about 90% of what a manager does to improve players.
What exactly is the 90%?

Most players I've seen interviewed have always said there is no substitute for playing matches to improve.

Hence why most teams loan players out if they can't guarantee first team football
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

SaraM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:07 pm I've never watched those players, and can't really evaluate what you're saying just based on appearance stats.

What I have seen is Bielsa take unpopular second division players and turn them into sought after internationals through his rigorous training methods.
It's certainly a valid point as JM had well scouted youth players to work with, youth players brought in by people wih a great reputation for spotting young talent. Bielsa had players that for the most part had been discarded by several managed and written of by us fans. If Heckingbottom had have stayed at ER howmany of the players we had then would have ended up playing in the premier league?
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:22 pm But that's the whole Red Bull philosophy anyway.

You don't work for them if you don't develop players, tiz my point.

Bielsa was on record for preferring older players over youth.

That's the difference.

Tactics, unproven, all that is a fair concern with Marsch.

Faith in youth I have 0 concerns.
Often with young players they need more of a father figure to nurture them and to that degree Marsch would be better for them as he would allow them to grow. As for improving them I think a lot depends on the player. We saw at Leeds that players like Ayling and Cooper bought into what he was telling them which not all players would and maybe a lot of young players wouldn't too if they thought they knew it all etc. I think a combination of JM and MB would be absolutely perfect to develop them tactically as well as mentally.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by weasel »

danhirons wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:14 pm For what it's worth...I'm not convinced bielsa was good for our actual youth players...in fact the young players who came through under him were only ever really given a chance to play when he had no other players to play in that position rather than actively being given a chance by Bielsa.

Struijk only really played when there were no other senior options...

Meslier only came through when casilla was suspended despite him making numerous mistakes...

Gelhardt only really given a chance when paddy and James were out...

Others like a summerville etc. barely given a sniff...

Obviously he developed young players already in the first team a lot...like kp
It's a tricky one to judge because we don't really know how good the young players Bielsa had here were. Certainly none of the young players that Bielsa allowed to leave have proved him wrong. We did see that when we brought in a high quality youth player in Ben White that Bielsa had complete trust in him. So maybe it is a case that Bielsa didn't see enough in our young players to think that they were good enough and if they had been better he would have played more of them. Bielsa showed faith in Jack Harrison too who was only around 20/21 when he first came to the club. He played Jack Clarke but seemed wary of exposing him too much and he probably was right about that given what has happened since - he also seemed to quickly judge that the Clarke who came back to us on loan wasn't good enough and that opinion seems to have been vindicated.

As such I'm inclined to think that if our youth players had been better they'd have got more chances, they weren't and subsequently weren't picked. Interestingly JM seems to be using Gelhardt as sparingly as MB did and the only youth player that seems to be given more of a chance under JM would be Greenwood but that may just be that he has developed a bit more, a few months can make a big difference with young players.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:29 pm Often with young players they need more of a father figure to nurture them and to that degree Marsch would be better for them as he would allow them to grow. As for improving them I think a lot depends on the player. We saw at Leeds that players like Ayling and Cooper bought into what he was telling them which not all players would and maybe a lot of young players wouldn't too if they thought they knew it all etc. I think a combination of JM and MB would be absolutely perfect to develop them tactically as well as mentally.
Without wanting to turn this into a Bielsa debate I think think can see why younger players may not warm to a Sergeant Major type manager who doesn't really communicate with players.

Older lower league pros like Ayling and Cooper may be more willing to listen as you say.

Think maybe had Gelhardt and Summerville and the like been at LUFC when Bielsa arrived they would have had more of a chance.

But Bielsa had his 18 set and through his own admission he would always prefer to use them and again through his own admission it frustrated many u23s who asked to leave in January on loan, Summerville was one.

Marsch is a more cuddly type, great bunch of lads etc, more approachable, likely more appealing to younger players.

If you could take Marsch's approachability, man management and flexibility regarding rotation and add Bielsa's knowledge and attention to detail you'd probably have a great successful manager..
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Irish Ian »

Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:58 pm What exactly is the 90%?

Most players I've seen interviewed have always said there is no substitute for playing matches to improve.

Hence why most teams loan players out if they can't guarantee first team football
Training.
Bamford mentioned the 10000 hours rule the other day
That is acquired by training.

Game time comes on top.
Players going out on loan is valuable of course but it won't help them if they don't train
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

Post by Irish Ian »

Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:11 pm



But Bielsa had his 18 set and through his own admission he would always prefer to use them and again through his own admission.


Pep was quoted on TSB last week as saying that this was his preferred system too.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Irish Ian wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:48 pm Training.
Bamford mentioned the 10000 hours rule the other day
That is acquired by training.

Game time comes on top.
Players going out on loan is valuable of course but it won't help them if they don't train
Training is important absolutely and learning drills etc but the idea was we used the same playing style throughout the age groups right down to repetition of movement.

Idea was that should lessen drastically the time it took for youth players to adapt at first team level.

But that didnt seem to be the case and in the end it frustrated the youth players as Bielsa admitted.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Irish Ian wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:54 pm Pep was quoted on TSB last week as saying that this was his preferred system too.
Very true mate.

Pep himself uses a very small squad.

It's one of the things he has gotten criticism for in the media and also by his own fans.

His lack of use of the youth players to is a big cause of frustration on the City forum.

Him and Bielsa like two peas in a pod.

When the KP stuff started the City fans wanted them to use Lavia instead for example.

Weren't happy about McAtee being loaned out or Tommy Doyle either.

Difference is that Man City have a squad of the best of the best so you can justify it to a degree.

They have a squad of 18 or whatever it is of players who are each in the top 10 players in each position in the world.

Only a handful of players will be good enough to get into that 18 in each role.

Only maybe 1 or 2 youth players in the world will be in that group, like Foden.

So that's how it can be justified for Pep imo.

We don't have that luxury and the Man City board don't claim to be a team with a clear pathway for youth.

And because the Man City team is so successful they never really go through periods long enough for Pep to be seriously questioned.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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Cjay wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:45 pm Training is important absolutely and learning drills etc but the idea was we used the same playing style throughout the age groups right down to repetition of movement.

Idea was that should lessen drastically the time it took for youth players to adapt at first team level.

But that didnt seem to be the case and in the end it frustrated the youth players as Bielsa admitted.
As I say thought the trouble seems to be more about how good the young players were.The two you mention, Gelhardt and Summerville, would appear to be the standouts but we hae also seen with Marsch that Gelhardt is seen as a back-up and Summerville seems to be behind Aaronsen, Harrison, James and Sinister in the pecking order - how long will the cuddles from Marsch keep him happy if he still isn't getting minutes. Gelhardt also seems to have almost continual injury niggles so it may be that MB and no JM are trying to protect him and he isn't physically ready yet to be a regular starter.

An interesting case is Drameh. Backed himself to go out on loan but despite doing really well at Cardiff Marsch still bought another right back.

So given what I have mentioned I have yet to really see any evidence that Marsch is set to play more youthsfor us than MB did. Time will tell I suppose.

With Man City, and even with us, it seems that when a player goes out on loan it is because the manager as made his mind up that they aren't good enough so he is simply washing his hands of them but at the same time hoping they do well out on loan so they can get a bigger fee.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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weasel wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:34 am As I say thought the trouble seems to be more about how good the young players were.The two you mention, Gelhardt and Summerville, would appear to be the standouts but we hae also seen with Marsch that Gelhardt is seen as a back-up and Summerville seems to be behind Aaronsen, Harrison, James and Sinister in the pecking order - how long will the cuddles from Marsch keep him happy if he still isn't getting minutes. Gelhardt also seems to have almost continual injury niggles so it may be that MB and no JM are trying to protect him and he isn't physically ready yet to be a regular starter.

An interesting case is Drameh. Backed himself to go out on loan but despite doing really well at Cardiff Marsch still bought another right back.

So given what I have mentioned I have yet to really see any evidence that Marsch is set to play more youthsfor us than MB did. Time will tell I suppose.

With Man City, and even with us, it seems that when a player goes out on loan it is because the manager as made his mind up that they aren't good enough so he is simply washing his hands of them but at the same time hoping they do well out on loan so they can get a bigger fee.
We will see I suppose.

I do think the club have clearly shown faith in Summerville for example by allowing him to take Raphinha's number 10 squad number and with the 5 sub rule I think he will be a regular player.

Maybe not starter but I think he will get more opportunities under Marsch than Bielsa.

Whether MB would have done the same with 5 subs is possible but we won't know now.

I wonder how much the injury to Ayling influenced the signing of Kristensen? Does Marsch rate Drameh? I don't know

Wish they'd show the same desire to sign a bloody left back :lol:

As you say maybe Gelhardt's clear fitness issues are one of the reasons MB and now Marsch was hesitant with Joffy? But I do think Marsch allowing Roberts to leave on loan does show he has more faith in him than Bielsa did fortunately (all be it we do imo need an additional attacker).

Some merit to what you say about City but I think with certain players like James McAtee for example it is just a case of Pep wanting him to get minutes which because of his squad is something he can't do.

An acid test perhaps?
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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SaraM wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:44 am Sorry, but the comparisons are inevitable because he was brought in as an upgrade, to supposedly do what Bielsa couldn't. The validity of that decision, and of his appointment, rests on there being some discernible progress. I've yet to see it. We've looked a mess for the majority of Marsch's games so far.

The mantra has been, next season, when he's got his own players. He's been fully backed, so there are no excuses now, yet we're throwing away games like Southampton. Let's see how we fare against Chelsea.
Fared quite well I think :)
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th August) - Leeds trust the current first team squad to be successful

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danhirons wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:44 pm Fared quite well I think :)
Yup, today it worked. Hat's off!
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