The next generation

[1964white]

Dalllas and Harrison were excellent first half on the left on Saturday though.
Score the couple of goals we looked like getting and all this goes away.

I wonder if playing Heldje out of position alongside Struijk against their forwards would have been a good ploy? Trippier was earmarked as a danger man pre game but Dallas and Harrison kept them quiet.

Also if Cresswell and Heldje were so PL ready I wonder why our U23s ship so many goals many of them straight through the centre of the team.

The question is what to do with three wingers?

Newcastle were more a threat though the middle with Maxipants, Shelvey & Wood than on the flanks.

We look more solid with Dallas in the middle of the park, the barcodes had far too much freedom in that area of the pitch. Also, Dallas is always capable of grabbing a goal, unlike our other midfielders.

No disrespect to you William, but Cresswell & Hjede haven't played that often of late in our U23's defence due to injuries. Every man, woman & dog could see how well Leo performed in both West Ham games, he outshone some of our senior players, I really felt sorry for the lad.

As for three wingers, play only two giving us an option off the bench, which would have applied v Newcastle as Raphinha & Jack had run themselves ragged with both having very little left in the tank by the time Marcelo made his subs.

Too many wingers spoil the broth imo, makes us look disjointed.

[The Subhuman]

Untrue Faaip.

You only want to read those who have the same opinion as yourself.

Everybody makes valid points on here whether they are positive or negative, mate

They're not good points though, they're oft repeated untruths

[1964white]

They're not good points though, they're oft repeated untruths

We all repeat ourselves, at times I tired of hearing my own voice

[SG90]

No disrespect to you William, but Cresswell & Hjede haven't played that often of late in our U23's defence due to injuries. Every man, woman & dog could see how well Leo performed in both West Ham games, he outshone some of our senior players, I really felt sorry for the lad.

Yes, the u23s were flying at the beginning of the season, then they tumbled down the table when Cresswell, Gelhardt and Summerville were taken out the team.

[1964white]

Yes, the u23s were flying at the beginning of the season, then they tumbled down the table when Cresswell, Gelhardt and Summerville were taken out the team.

I know mate, I've watched the majority of our U23's games, we look a shadow of the team without those you've mentioned.

Glad I forgot our lads were playing last night.

[weasel]

Gelhardt & Hjelde are ready.

Jack Clarke was ready, fans demanded he start games after a couple of great substitute appearances. Maybe physically and ability wise he was ready but perhaps mentally he wasn't. I don't think we have ever really been told what happened in the match where he had to be brought off. Now it looks like he is about to join Sunderland, in league 1, on loan having continually failed to reproduce the ability he showed in his first couple of appearances for us.

These players are ready but ready for gradual introduction. Not being thrust into a situation where a bad performance sees them getting slaughtered on social media or feeling like they have let fans down if they have just an average performance. Look at the pressure on Gelhardt now, every time he comes onto the pitch fans are expecting him to produce. Let Bielsa gradually improve their minutes, yes it is frustrating at times but let Bielsa get it right and we may have some great players on our hands for several years rather than burning them out at a young age and then watching them fade away.

[weasel]

We look more solid with Dallas in the middle of the park, the barcodes had far too much freedom in that area of the pitch. Also, Dallas is always capable of grabbing a goal, unlike our other midfielders.

As for three wingers, play only two giving us an option off the bench, which would have applied v Newcastle as Raphinha & Jack had run themselves ragged with both having very little left in the tank by the time Marcelo made his subs.

Too many wingers spoil the broth imo, makes us look disjointed.

That would be Dallas who scored twice in a play-off match from left back.....
Alioski chipped in with a few from left back - having a goal threat from every position is part of the way we play. Yes I would have preferred Dallas in the middle but he is also an excellent full back. If we'd been a bit better with our final ball we'd have won comfortably on Saturday. As such the performance for the main part was excellent, the final ball wasn't.

No problem with the 3 wingers against West Ham. Their movement and interchange caused West Ham all sorts of problems and we scored 3 goals. I don't think we looked disjointed against West Ham. I don't think we looked disjointed against Newcastle. Bury a chance in the first half and we win comfortably.

[weasel]

I firmly believe that the majority of our u23s are overrated but the club say they are this wonderful group who would cost 8 figure sums to improve on yet the boss only.plays them as a last resort.

The idea that it would cost 8 figure sums to improve on our u23s is nonsense. You look at players like Saka, Greenwood, Rashford, Foden, Livramento, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, Ait-Nouri, Carney Chukwuemeka, Jacob Ramsey, McNeil, Lamptey, Tyrick Mitchell, Luke Thomas, could go on and on.

These are a similar age and younger than most of our u23s and they are established Premiership players. Clearly they did enough to prove they were good enough to be more than last resorts.

So either Bielsa is wrong and they aren't good enough and therefore they shouldn't be relied upon by the first team at all and we should have made signings. In which case both he and the board are responsible.

Or he is right and they aren't ready in which case the board are wrong and they are doing Bielsa a disservice by forcing him to use unready players as part of his miniscule squad.

"Many January options requiring an eight-figure investment would not be a material improvement on the current performances of emerging players such as Bate, Hjelde and Gelhardt".

Those are Angus words.

Such impressive performances that Bielsa dropped Bate and Hjelde and Gelhardt immediately after and has consistently called for reinforcement in January?

As I said what the board say about our u23s doesn't match up with Bielsa and how he treats them.

So somebody is wrong?

Either Bielsa is wrong and he should be using the u23s more rather than only when he has to and we don't need first team signings.

Or the board are wrong, the u23s aren't ready to he used on a consistent basis and we do need signings.

The Two views don't measure up.

They can't both be amazing and worth millions of pounds as Kinnear seems to think and therefore very difficult to improve on for less than £10mil whilst simultaneously being only good enough as absolute last resorts and dropped as soon as enough square pegs return to make that possible.

Realise I am ranting but it really annoyed me and tbh I don't think I misunderstood.

It's the 'expectation' that these players are all suddenly good enough now. They are not. Even in the list you did above that is less than an average of 1 player per club that is doing it at a young age and they weren't all just thrown straight in. Martinelli at Arsenal has been getting 5 minutes here and there for 3 seasons. Foden similarly had very few minutes at City despite looking quality from a very young age.

Our players may be good enough to be first team players, or first team squad players but not all of them now. But surely it is better to give them a few minutes in the first team here and there while they are developing than buy a few players at around £5m per player to just play those few minutes here and there.

If we are to become a power again it is unlikely that we will do it by building a team of players that we buy at £20-£30m per position (or more to get the really good players). We need to be in a position where we have the continued dripfeed of young players breaking through, hopefully so that in 3 or 4 seasons time we get a team where half of them have come through the youth. We then have a couple of big signings per year and have a very good team. It's how MU dominated, they didn't have to buy squad players they had their young players and their expensive signings, they could splash the money on a really decent signing rather than having to use that money to sign 3 or 4 average signings. They then had some of their youngsters that were first team starters, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and G Neville but they also had youth players that weren't as good as those but were good squad players, Butt, P Neville and various others.

That is what we need to do. Some of our youngsters may excel, some may just be good squad players but have them all in and around the first team instead of clogging up the squad with average squad players. The bonus is that the youngsters will also be on considerably lower wages than 'average squad players would be' and as they are youngsters they will be less likely to be getting disillusioned by not always starting. Some may even be fans of the club from childhood so would rather be a squad player for us than go to a lesser club where they would start more often (again in a similar way to how P Neville, Butt and others at MU stayed there as squad players for a few years before moving to lesser clubs such as Everton to get more minutes - none proved Alex Ferguson's judgement to be wrong).

[SG90]

It's the 'expectation' that these players are all suddenly good enough now. They are not. Even in the list you did above that is less than an average of 1 player per club that is doing it at a young age and they weren't all just thrown straight in. Martinelli at Arsenal has been getting 5 minutes here and there for 3 seasons. Foden similarly had very few minutes at City despite looking quality from a very young age.

Our players may be good enough to be first team players, or first team squad players but not all of them now. But surely it is better to give them a few minutes in the first team here and there while they are developing than buy a few players at around £5m per player to just play those few minutes here and there.

If we are to become a power again it is unlikely that we will do it by building a team of players that we buy at £20-£30m per position (or more to get the really good players). We need to be in a position where we have the continued dripfeed of young players breaking through, hopefully so that in 3 or 4 seasons time we get a team where half of them have come through the youth. We then have a couple of big signings per year and have a very good team. It's how MU dominated, they didn't have to buy squad players they had their young players and their expensive signings, they could splash the money on a really decent signing rather than having to use that money to sign 3 or 4 average signings. They then had some of their youngsters that were first team starters, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and G Neville but they also had youth players that weren't as good as those but were good squad players, Butt, P Neville and various others.

That is what we need to do. Some of our youngsters may excel, some may just be good squad players but have them all in and around the first team instead of clogging up the squad with average squad players. The bonus is that the youngsters will also be on considerably lower wages than 'average squad players would be' and as they are youngsters they will be less likely to be getting disillusioned by not always starting. Some may even be fans of the club from childhood so would rather be a squad player for us than go to a lesser club where they would start more often (again in a similar way to how P Neville, Butt and others at MU stayed there as squad players for a few years before moving to lesser clubs such as Everton to get more minutes - none proved Alex Ferguson's judgement to be wrong).

It isn't about signing £5m players to block their route. It's about playing players out of position and blocking their route to the first team. For example Ayling at CB over Cresswell, Dallas at LB over Hjelde or James over Gelhardt up front. Why can't we just trust young lads in their position?

[1964white]

That would be Dallas who scored twice in a play-off match from left back.....
Alioski chipped in with a few from left back - having a goal threat from every position is part of the way we play. Yes I would have preferred Dallas in the middle but he is also an excellent full back. If we'd been a bit better with our final ball we'd have won comfortably on Saturday. As such the performance for the main part was excellent, the final ball wasn't.

No problem with the 3 wingers against West Ham. Their movement and interchange caused West Ham all sorts of problems and we scored 3 goals. I don't think we looked disjointed against West Ham. I don't think we looked disjointed against Newcastle. Bury a chance in the first half and we win comfortably.

Dallas is excellent wherever he plays, certainly under Bielsa's reign.

My point was there was no need to switch Stuart to the LB position as Newcastle generally play through the middle, they haven't got outstanding wingers or wing-backs.

The majority of us know why Hjede or Gelhardt didn't start it's okay against strong opposition such as West Ham or Spurs but not against a team who have only won one game this season.

We lost our way in the second-half & gradually ran out of idea's after being subjected to Newcastle's frustrating stop-start style of football.

We were unbalanced because we had nobody to put the ball in the net.

We are far too reliant on Raphinha to create & score goals, also we can't expect Jack to grab a hat-trick every game.

[weasel]

Dallas is excellent wherever he plays, certainly under Bielsa's reign.

My point was there was no need to switch Stuart to the LB position as Newcastle generally play through the middle, they haven't got outstanding wingers or wing-backs.

The majority of us know why Hjede or Gelhardt didn't start it's okay against strong opposition such as West Ham or Spurs but not against a team who have only won one game this season.

We lost our way in the second-half & gradually ran out of idea's after being subjected to Newcastle's frustrating stop-start style of football.

We were unbalanced because we had nobody to put the ball in the net.

We are far too reliant on Raphinha to create & score goals, also we can't expect Jack to grab a hat-trick every game.

England international Trippier??

Like I said I would have started Dallas in midfield but I would have done it because I wasn't expecting Rodrigo to be deemed fit enough to start. Given that Rodrigo was fit to start it made perfect sense to play him - we need to get him fully firing and showing why Real Madrid and Barcelona have both been interested in him in recent years and why he has been picked so many times for Spain. If we can get Rodrigo firing like he did at the end of last season then it makes more a lot more sense than playing a young lad at full back given how well Dallas plays the position.

The only thing wrong on Saturday was the final ball. If that had been right then the team selection would have been right. We played well enough to win comfortably but by the final ball being poor we didn't give ourselves the chances to get the goals we deserved. Do that and any team is capable of nicking a goal, especially one as soft as the one they got.

Interesting how the media was full of praise for James against West Ham with his movement a huge part of why we were able to cut open West Ham's defence. Yet then suddenly everyone using the power of hindsight would have dropped him.

[1964white]

England international Trippier??

Like I said I would have started Dallas in midfield but I would have done it because I wasn't expecting Rodrigo to be deemed fit enough to start. Given that Rodrigo was fit to start it made perfect sense to play him - we need to get him fully firing and showing why Real Madrid and Barcelona have both been interested in him in recent years and why he has been picked so many times for Spain. If we can get Rodrigo firing like he did at the end of last season then it makes more a lot more sense than playing a young lad at full back given how well Dallas plays the position.

The only thing wrong on Saturday was the final ball. If that had been right then the team selection would have been right. We played well enough to win comfortably but by the final ball being poor we didn't give ourselves the chances to get the goals we deserved. Do that and any team is capable of nicking a goal, especially one as soft as the one they got.

Interesting how the media was full of praise for James against West Ham with his movement a huge part of why we were able to cut open West Ham's defence. Yet then suddenly everyone using the power of hindsight would have dropped him.

Fair enough

James was excellent v West Ham as all our lads were on the day.

[SG90]

Interesting how the media was full of praise for James against West Ham with his movement a huge part of why we were able to cut open West Ham's defence. Yet then suddenly everyone using the power of hindsight would have dropped him.

He also bottled a great chance which almost cost us 2 points.

He needs to do more than just run, especially at £25m.

[The Subhuman]

It isn't about signing £5m players to block their route. It's about playing players out of position and blocking their route to the first team. For example Ayling at CB over Cresswell, Dallas at LB over Hjelde or James over Gelhardt up front. Why can't we just trust young lads in their position?

But we don't play players out of position. Ayling is a very good CB with a few MOTM's playing there... Bielsa is absolutely right in protecting the kids going forward.

[weasel]

He also bottled a great chance which almost cost us 2 points.

He needs to do more than just run, especially at £25m.

Are you talking about the West Ham chance? If you actually look at the ball played into him it is behind him meaning that he has to slow down to take the ball which is why he can't get the ball into the perfect position for shooting. If the ball is played a yard or two further forward he takes it in his stride and can set himself properly to open up his body and score.

[SG90]

But we don't play players out of position. Ayling is a very good CB with a few MOTM's playing there... Bielsa is absolutely right in protecting the kids going forward.

He isn't though. He failed as a CB at Bristol City, which is why they sold him. Cresswell was MOTM against Fulham and played very well v West Ham and hasn't been seen since. Good enough for England u21s though...

[weasel]

He isn't though. He failed as a CB at Bristol City, which is why they sold him. Cresswell was MOTM against Fulham and played very well v West Ham and hasn't been seen since. Good enough for England u21s though...

Bristol City didn't think Ayling was good enough at full back which is why they sold him to us. At Arsenal, where he started out, they didn't see him as being good enough at centreback. No real slight on Ayling though as they also didn't see Kyle Bartley as being good enough either.

I much prefer Ayling at right wingback. That though is more due to how good he is there rather than a slight on his centre back qualities. Whoever we played at centreback against the likes of City and Arsenal would have struggled as we were being ripped apart everywhere.

[The Subhuman]

He isn't though. He failed as a CB at Bristol City, which is why they sold him. Cresswell was MOTM against Fulham and played very well v West Ham and hasn't been seen since. Good enough for England u21s though...

He is though, Bielsa has taken what was there and improved it. How good he was at BC means f**k all..

Players improve you know? They're not the sum of what they were. Cresswell is gonna be good for us too I would think as is Hjelde, the latter is probably better.

[Cjay]

It's the 'expectation' that these players are all suddenly good enough now. They are not. Even in the list you did above that is less than an average of 1 player per club that is doing it at a young age and they weren't all just thrown straight in. Martinelli at Arsenal has been getting 5 minutes here and there for 3 seasons. Foden similarly had very few minutes at City despite looking quality from a very young age.

Our players may be good enough to be first team players, or first team squad players but not all of them now. But surely it is better to give them a few minutes in the first team here and there while they are developing than buy a few players at around £5m per player to just play those few minutes here and there.

If we are to become a power again it is unlikely that we will do it by building a team of players that we buy at £20-£30m per position (or more to get the really good players). We need to be in a position where we have the continued dripfeed of young players breaking through, hopefully so that in 3 or 4 seasons time we get a team where half of them have come through the youth. We then have a couple of big signings per year and have a very good team. It's how MU dominated, they didn't have to buy squad players they had their young players and their expensive signings, they could splash the money on a really decent signing rather than having to use that money to sign 3 or 4 average signings. They then had some of their youngsters that were first team starters, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and G Neville but they also had youth players that weren't as good as those but were good squad players, Butt, P Neville and various others.

That is what we need to do. Some of our youngsters may excel, some may just be good squad players but have them all in and around the first team instead of clogging up the squad with average squad players. The bonus is that the youngsters will also be on considerably lower wages than 'average squad players would be' and as they are youngsters they will be less likely to be getting disillusioned by not always starting. Some may even be fans of the club from childhood so would rather be a squad player for us than go to a lesser club where they would start more often (again in a similar way to how P Neville, Butt and others at MU stayed there as squad players for a few years before moving to lesser clubs such as Everton to get more minutes - none proved Alex Ferguson's judgement to be wrong).

But none of those clubs had as threadbare squad as us or the injury crisis we do.

Manure could afford to take their time.

What happened to if they're good enough they are old enough?

Martinelli, Foden etc those clubs had proper first team squads with depth and lots of talent and cash.

We don't have that.

We have no depth even fully fit We can't even fill the bench with first team players.

If they are only good enough for a few minutes then they shouldn't be on the bench, that is my view, some will disagree.

But I feel that if you are good enough for the bench then you should be good enough to start, if you aren't then you should be elsewhere.

I just don't think that the board and the manager are singing off the same hymn sheet regarding the u23s and I think actually that is reflected in quite a few wanting to leave as has happened and as Bielsa has admitted.

If you have the Chief Executive (or whatever Kinnear is meant to be) telling the world and his wife that it would cost £10million to improve on you then as a youngster you will expect to play more games.

But then the boss barely uses you.

So no wonder they get frustrated and I suspect it will happen more and more.

[SG90]

So no wonder they get frustrated and I suspect it will happen more and more.

Gelhardt next.

What message are we sending young players? "Come and play u23s football all your life and you might get to sit on the bench, but only play if there are a million injuries. Plus regardless of how well you play, you will be dropped for the next game if one player is back."

Based on this season at least, I'd say the only players with a divine right to start are Raph and Meslier (only as he's the only option).