The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

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Breakfast Debate The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »



Good Morning. It's Tuesday 11th October, and here are the latest headlines from Elland Road...


Gnonto on target as U21's soar

Leeds U21's had to work hard to overcome a stubborn Sunderland team, brimming with first team players, at the Stadium of light last night. The Wearside outfit were still no match for Michael Skubala's side with Wilfred Gnonto taking the plaudits with a second half strike to keep Leeds unbeaten start to the season intact, and stretch their lead at the top of the table. After the game, a delighted Skubala was quick to praise his team, not just for their three points, but a solid defensive performance, with Kris Moore being singled out for special treatment.

“A top test for both teams. They had a good team out, we had a good team out and we knew it'd be a strong game. They've got some really good players on loan from big clubs and they've got tricky wingers. I thought the first half was a real sort of open but toe to toe game and then I thought, second half, we dominated. We'd got inside, changed a few things and tidied up a few things and I thought we were good.

Kris Moore has really sort of taken a leadership role on to organise because he's probably the most consistent one in the team. Morton's come in alongside him and I think he's done really well. I think he did really well today, he was tackling, he was heading, but also his balls forward were superb, so he’s had a real good game.

Harvey was really good until he had to go off of injury and then Cody, I think goes under the radar, but he's had three really top games and against that good winger (Jewison Bennette), Cody was controlling him. So as a back four, they were really good today.




120 free kicks conceded in eight games

Leeds have conceded 120 free kicks so far this season, prompting concern that Jesse Marsch's players need to smarten up their act, if they are to avoid the drop, come May. No team work harder on the pitch than Leeds, yet giving the ball away cheaply or conceding unnecessary free kicks have cost them dearly.

Whilst Leeds have seen vast improvement this season from defending set pieces, especially aerially, the vast number of fouls conceded (in dangerous areas) are giving the opposition cheap points.





Leeds passing ability causing concern

Latest statistics from Whoscored.com suggest that whilst Leeds are enjoying more possession on the ball and better aerial supremity, their passing has gone awry and are having few shots at goal.

Only Southampton and Fulham have a poorer passing record in the top flight, whilst possession wise, Leeds make the top eight. In layman's terms, Leeds are having to work harder to stay in possession. When they lose the ball, they are incredibly efficient in getting it back, but are having to exert a lot of energy in doing so.


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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Irish Ian »

Morning.

Nice win for the kiddies.

Re the fouling.

I wonder if this is an affect of the win the ball back fast ideology that Jesse instills in the side. Also it is easier for a ref to award a foul when he players press in a group... (it's harder to see clearly sometimes too)

Personally I had expected to see us with a few more red cards by this point. Eith Roca being the number one contender.
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"Football is about the people and the players,” he said. “Then there are those who will mingle in the middle: the coaches, executives and journalists. That last group represents the worst part about football" Marcelo Bielsa
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »

Irish Ian wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:37 am Morning.

Nice win for the kiddies.

Re the fouling.

I wonder if this is an affect of the win the ball back fast ideology that Jesse instills in the side. Also it is easier for a ref to award a foul when he players press in a group... (it's harder to see clearly sometimes too)

Personally I had expected to see us with a few more red cards by this point. Eith Roca being the number one contender.
I think you've hit the nail on its head. Bad pass - we lose the ball, and go hell for leather retrieving it, only to lose it again a few passes later.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »

We should not be the third worse passers in the Prem.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »

Our passing success from the Palace game.


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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Irish Ian »

Harrison lost the ball 25 times on Sunday.
Personally I think because Jesse had us playing like it was a kickabout in a bus shelter.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by The Subhuman »

Congest the game and don’t play into space then you will have less successful passes. Mark like a netball team and it’s easy for the opposition to draw fouls
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Cjay »

Afternoon.

So we have more possession under Marsch than Bielsa?

Shots per game is only down by 1 as an average as well.

Doesn't tally with the idea we were some sort of game controlling shot machine under MB and Marsch has made us a hoof ball team who creates nothing.

They need to stop with the silly challenges, know Jesse wants us to win the ball back quickly but you will end up on law of averages having players sent off or missing games because of yellow card accumulation or conceding set p8ece goals.

Need to calm down and be smarter imo.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by DDB220 »

Evidently we need to work on the fine balance of been competitive off the ball without committing poor challenges and incurring needless free kicks. Of course the damage of such actions is going to be in our half - hence why we use the high press. The problem with this tactic in the modern game is any form of contact with an opposing player generally results in said player going to ground and rolling around, which invariably our referee’s fall for 9 times out of 10.

This slows the game down, which is to our detriment. We really need to develop an alternative means of controlling the game. However with passing statistics as poor as we have throughout the team it doesn’t provide many options, particularly when we give the ball away far too often once we have done the hard work of winning it back.

We just seem far too frantic in possession. But it is still early days under JM and we may improve and keep mid table status which I would certainly be happy with.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »

This is really interesting. Leeds are much stronger left-footed, than right footed. In fact, only Bournemouth are weaker on their right peg, whilst only Liverpool, Arsenal and Citeh are stronger on their left foot.

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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:33 am Afternoon.

So we have more possession under Marsch than Bielsa?

Shots per game is only down by 1 as an average as well.

Doesn't tally with the idea we were some sort of game controlling shot machine under MB and Marsch has made us a hoof ball team who creates nothing.
More possession than in the season where we were abysmal under Bielsa and also Marsch was in charge for some of the games too. Also a small sample size this season as I would imagine our possession percentage will drop quickly after games v Liverpool, Man City etc

Would be a better comparison to compare all of Bielsa's games in the premier league against all of Marsch's. I think you need a far bigger sample size than 8 matches as stats can be schewed greatly in a very small sample size - i.e. in 1 match you take a shot it goes in. You have had 1 shot. In another match the shot iform the same position is blocked, there is a bit of pinball around the area where you end up having another 4 shots but you don't score. So in 1 match 1 shot 1 goal, another match 5 shots 0 goals but if the first shot goes in you end up with 4 less shots. That is why you need a much larger sample size so that things like that can even out.

I also recently used the example of the Watford matches from last season. We won 1-0 under Bielsa and relied on a dubious refereeing decision for Watford not scoring. We won 3-0 under Marsch.
In the Bielsa match (1-0) we had 20 shots to Watford's 5 and we had 67% possession making more than twice the number of passes that Watford did (497 to 242) and our pass acuracy was 81%.
In the Marsch match (3-0) we had 10 shots to Watford's 8 and 52% possession and only just made more passes than Watford (412 to 380) and our pass acuracy was a measly 63%.

So whilst at quick glance the 3-0 Marsch win looks far more impressive than the 1-0 Bielsa win I would suggest that if we played 38 matches like we did in the 1-0 win we would win more games than if we played 38 matches like we did in the 3-0 win.
Last edited by weasel on Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Cjay »

Ellandback1 wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:43 pm This is really interesting. Leeds are much stronger left-footed, than right footed. In fact, only Bournemouth are weaker on their right peg, whilst only Liverpool, Arsenal and Citeh are stronger on their left foot.


score.jpg
Rodrigo, Bamford, Harrison, Gelhardt and Roca, Struijk and Meslier are all left footed.

Wouldn't read to much into that stat Ell.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

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Is "Other" code for backside?
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Cumbriarents »

My elderly mother had to switch off the game on Sunday, she was sick of watching us give so many fouls away. She said it never happened with Bielsa ball
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:54 pm More possession than in the season where we were abysmal under Bielsa and also Marsch was in charge for some of the games too. Also a small sample size this season as I would imagine our possession percentage will drop quickly after games v Liverpool, Man City etc

Would be a better comparison to compare all of Bielsa's games in the premier league against all of Marsch's. I think you need a far bigger sample size than 8 matches as stats can be schewed greatly in a very small sample size - i.e. in 1 match you take a shot it goes in. You have had 1 shot. In another match the shot iform the same position is blocked, there is a bit of pinball around the area where you end up having another 4 shots but you don't score. So in 1 match 1 shot 1 goal, another match 5 shots 0 goals but if the first shot goes in you end up with 4 less shots. That is why you need a much larger sample size so that things like that can even out.

I also recently used the example of the Watford matches from last season. We won 1-0 under Bielsa and relied on a dubious refereeing decision for Watford not scoring. We won 3-0 under Marsch.
In the Bielsa match (1-0) we had 20 shots to Watford's 5 and we had 67% possession making more than twice the number of passes that Watford did (497 to 242) and our pass acuracy was 81%.
In the Marsch match (3-0) we had 10 shots to Watford's 8 and 52% possession and only just made more passes than Watford (412 to 380) and our pass acuracy was a measly 63%.

So whilst at quick glance the 3-0 Marsch win looks far more impressive than the 1-0 Bielsa win I would suggest that if we played 38 matches like we did in the 1-0 win we would win more games than if we played 38 matches like we did in the 3-0 win.
I think if you have to compare them then you have to compare them under identical circumstances.

I know some of our fans get tetchy if you mention no fans season but it has to make a difference somehow.

I did look at passing stats before for Marsch vs Bielsa including possession and it was something like.

52-54% for Bielsa
77-79% accuracy
The total passes and pass accuracy was similar in the comparative games and the pass distance and short passes was similar in terms of through the thirds, but Bielsa teams crossed much more and Marsch went long more.

But because the pass accuracy wasn't hugely different they must have been fairly accurate long balls.

Shots from what I remember was somewhere between 12-13 for Bielsa so again not hugely different per game whereas Marsch is at 11-12.

Tbh I think there are many of our fans who can't differentiate between Championship and Premier league Leeds under Bielsa.

The stats in terms of possession and stuff isnt that much different.

Even in the 1st season with arguably unique circumstances it was 13.7 shots per game, 80.8 pass accuracy and 55% possession.

Decent stats wise but certainly weren't in control even in that season averaging 14.7 shots against per game (4th highest in the league).

People now seem to think we controlled games under Bielsa and created tons of chances at the top level and use that to criticse Marsch.

Just wasn't the case as even in our 9th placed finish season we were conceding more shots per game than what we were creating and the shots per game stats were only marginally (maybe 1 or 2 shots more for MB on average).
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Jaydog »

Cumbriarents wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:38 pm My elderly mother had to switch off the game on Sunday, she was sick of watching us give so many fouls away. She said it never happened with Bielsa ball
He had 89 yellows in his last part season. 26 games.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by andrewjohnsmith »

Ellandback1 wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:04 am We should not be the third worse passers in the Prem.
I think it's intentional. They want to get the ball forward as fast as possible. And don't mind giving it to the opposition in dangerous areas. So we often intentionally give the ball away.

Not saying I agree with it. I might if we had a few more points.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Jaydog »

So hang on, are we the same under Marsch as Bielsa?
If you remove the freak 9th which most people agree was very flattering to Bielsa’s Leeds then what are we actually comparing. If you leave out Championship results & just concentrate on the PL that is. The stats are the same, the results are s**t. Conclusion. They were both s**t.
This is tongue in cheek obviously but I’m just trying to understand what these boffins above are getting at exactly.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Byebyegeegee »

weasel wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:54 pm

I also recently used the example of the Watford matches from last season. We won 1-0 under Bielsa and relied on a dubious refereeing decision for Watford not scoring. We won 3-0 under Marsch.
In the Bielsa match (1-0) we had 20 shots to Watford's 5 and we had 67% possession making more than twice the number of passes that Watford did (497 to 242) and our pass acuracy was 81%.
In the Marsch match (3-0) we had 10 shots to Watford's 8 and 52% possession and only just made more passes than Watford (412 to 380) and our pass acuracy was a measly 63%.

So whilst at quick glance the 3-0 Marsch win looks far more impressive than the 1-0 Bielsa win I would suggest that if we played 38 matches like we did in the 1-0 win we would win more games than if we played 38 matches like we did in the 3-0 win.
Interesting stats weasel, although Bielsa’s game was at home whilst Marsch’s game was away which might account for some of the disparity, but the overall difference is striking. We were certainly more dynamic and mobile going forward under Bielsa but last season, especially, this led to us being less solid at the back and the better teams in the division took full advantage. This season we are less fluent in attack but seemingly more solid defensively, although we have still lost more than we’ve won, our goal difference at -1 is ok under the circumstances and by comparison with other teams around us.

Well done to the under 21s who are having a great season so far. Gelhardt, Greenwood, Fernandez and Gnonto seem to get the lions share of publicity but it’s nice to see the likes of Moore and Spencer, who are normally under the radar, getting a little bit of praise too.
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Re: The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 1th October) - Gnonto on target against Sunderland as U21's soar

Post by Ellandback1 »

Jaydog wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:14 pm He had 89 yellows in his last part season. 26 games.
Who? Firpo
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